5* Soft-Capping: Worth It?

OneLastGambit

archmag wrote:

Orion wrote:

Then the devs better understand their own game and fix scaling for 5* rosters. Because right now there's absolutely no reason why anyone should ever level their 5*s past 360. And this is from someone with 2 5* champs and another one at 420.

Why 360? I see no reason the level them above the top 4* characters. They start affecting the scaling as soon as you do that, as boosting does not effect scaling (even though there is a rumor going on that it does affect it, it does not).

For quite a while my roster had ~10-14 4* champions at around 280 level + OML at 300. Enemies in last node after 4 clears had level 323, no matter if I had some of my 4* champs boosted or didn't.

Few days ago I leveled up my OML to 360 and in the next event enemies in final node after 4 clears had level 335. So they gained 12 extra levels. Does not look much, but if I compare two enemies - Muscle level 323 has 23k hp, Muscle level 335 has 26k hp, it means that all my roster (except OML) became 10% weaker. I don't see why I should level them up to make my remaining roster, that I put a lot of work into, weaker.

It's stupid mechanic that makes the game harder when you become stronger.

I kind of agree with this. With the introduction of CL it makes even more sense to just drop scaling entirely.

astrp3

archmag wrote:

...boosting does not effect scaling (even though there is a rumor going on that it does affect it, it does not).

What is your source for this claim? I'm not saying it's wrong, but just want to know if it came from the devs or somewhere else.

Just before Thick as Thieves, I added my first 5* and my scaling essentially stayed exactly the same (hard node opps went from level 266 to 267 and required 4* opps from 235 to 236). My highest-level characters were three level 180-185 3*s, which, when boosted, were about level 250-270 (I forget the exact number), so it seems that if they base scaling on the average of your three highest-leveled characters (another oft-made claim that I've never seen confirmed), they were taking boosting into account. If not, then they must not be basing scaling on the average of your three highest-level characters. Even if they were using the top ten (another claim I've heard), it seems like my scaling would have gone up a few more levels (maybe 5-10) if they weren't taking boosting into account.

OneLastGambit

astrp3 wrote:

archmag wrote:

...boosting does not effect scaling (even though there is a rumor going on that it does affect it, it does not).

What is your source for this claim? I'm not saying it's wrong, but just want to know if it came from the devs or somewhere else.

Just before Thick as Thieves, I added my first 5* and my scaling essentially stayed exactly the same (hard node opps went from level 266 to 267 and required 4* opps from 235 to 236). My highest-level characters were three level 180-185 3*s, which, when boosted, were about level 250-270 (I forget the exact number), so it seems that if they base scaling on the average of your three highest-leveled characters (another oft-made claim that I've never seen confirmed), they were taking boosting into account. If not, then they must not be basing scaling on the average of your three highest-level characters. Even if they were using the top ten (another claim I've heard), it seems like my scaling would have gone up a few more levels (maybe 5-10) if they weren't taking boosting into account.

He is correct (kind of). Back when Ice was around he showed a post which was a pic of his team with a boosted character and without a boosted character showing the exact same scaling levels for the exact same node with the exact same number of clears. Of course that was a while ago and many patches (and bugs) later....

archmag

astrp3 wrote:

archmag wrote:

...boosting does not effect scaling (even though there is a rumor going on that it does affect it, it does not).

What is your source for this claim? I'm not saying it's wrong, but just want to know if it came from the devs or somewhere else.

Just before Thick as Thieves, I added my first 5* and my scaling essentially stayed exactly the same (hard node opps went from level 266 to 267 and required 4* opps from 235 to 236). My highest-level characters were three level 180-185 3*s, which, when boosted, were about level 250-270 (I forget the exact number), so it seems that if they base scaling on the average of your three highest-leveled characters (another oft-made claim that I've never seen confirmed), they were taking boosting into account. If not, then they must not be basing scaling on the average of your three highest-level characters. Even if they were using the top ten (another claim I've heard), it seems like my scaling would have gone up a few more levels (maybe 5-10) if they weren't taking boosting into account.

I observed the level of enemies in the final node through a lot of events with different amount of boosted 4* champions. OML was fixed at 300 for a long time (almost half a year), since I had 2 or 3 4* champs. It varried from 0 to 2 boosted champs and final node after 4 clears was always around level 320, slowly going up as I gained extra covers for my champs.

As for your example, I think there was another rumor going around that it also takes into account the amount of covers that you characters have, maybe that's why nothing changed for you when you got single cover 5*.

Devs actually mentioned in their post about scaling that it takes boosting into account, but that post is so old, that I don't thing people should trust it anymore.

WelcomeDeath

What a thread. Can a mod just rename this "Fightmaster vs MPQ"? You could even include a modified version of the DP vs mpq graphic. Lots of things to reapond to...

Scaling: It's no rumor, the game DOES take into account levels, rarity and number of covers of characters to determine both scaling and mmr. Rostering a single 5 no longer does anything (it used to, doesnt now.) I dont remember about boosts exactly, but i am fairly certain boosts are taken into account as well...which totally defeats the purpose of boosts, unless their actual purpose is to limit usable roster and encourage use of health packs.

Softcapping: I think people are jumping to too many assumptions here. Based on the current game mechanic, should you champ strange or banner as your first 5* with nobody to go with him? I would say no because thats bad for pvp as well as pve. I dont believe thats what fight means, either. I know he doesnt mean being restricted by covers or iso or not having any 4s covered or not having any 5s covered. Thats not softcapping, thats a lack of resources. That being said, there is a number of players with several champed 4s, 5s max covered...that still wont level their 5s. One in particular I know has at least 3 5s max covered, over 35 4s champed....and doesnt level. I get why hes annoyed at this, because having the best characters in the game championed should give an advantage, and it doesnt unless its specific 5*. And the issue isnt with the levels of the AI team, those scale just fine, its the exponential scaling of abilities to the point that an enemy team can have much higher damage potential than your 5* team, and your team doesnt have the same damage potential / health as a 4* boosted team does. It's mostly a gameplay issue, and really does need to be addressed.

Spending vs ftp: I think it's really silly to condemn people that spend money on the game or who "bought their rosters". You are and always have been ftp? Good for you, but someones gotta pay for the game or the servers shut down and all the grinding in the world wont stop that. Would be interested to know what buying your roster consists of. If youve spent any money on the game at all, for shields, for roster slots, for anything, even vip, youve technically bought a part of your roster, however small, and increased your future potential for earning rewards. If thats the case, i suggest deleting your account and starting all over. Thats the only "real" way to earn all of your rewards "legitimately"

Piro_plock

Welcome Death wrote:

Spending vs ftp: I think it's really silly to condemn people that spend money on the game or who "bought their rosters". You are and always have been ftp? Good for you, but someones gotta pay for the game or the servers shut down and all the grinding in the world wont stop that. Would be interested to know what buying your roster consists of. If youve spent any money on the game at all, for shields, for roster slots, for anything, even vip, youve technically bought a part of your roster, however small, and increased your future potential for earning rewards. If thats the case, i suggest deleting your account and starting all over. Thats the only "real" way to earn all of your rewards "legitimately"

I'm totally okay with people doing purchases to speed up their development and even "buying their rosters". This game was designed with it in mind and it is painfully obvious for anyone who ever played it. It is brutally competitive with "gotta catch 'em all" elements and quite a big pay2win component, so if you're not fine with it, find another game... or just play for fun.

What I'm tired of is seeing whales act like they're some tinykitty saviors of the game and we should all prostrate ourselves because of how generous they are. No, you're paying to be more competitive, because you like to win or even dominate. And that's okay, but it doesn't give you any moral superiority over the free-to-play bunch - and vice versa, not buying anything doesn't make you better either. There are really two kinds of currency for every "free-to-play": hard cold cash or the time you spend on it. Competitive f2p players are grinding a lot more than most of the whales because they have to if they want to keep up. Kudos to anyone who doesn't splurge and ranks well - but cutting time needed to get to the fun parts with a few dollars here and there is equally valid.

TLDR: both sides of "pay2win" discussion should take a step back and chill a bit.

Fightmastermpq

Piro_plock wrote:

What I'm tired of is seeing whales act like they're some tinykitty saviors of the game and we should all prostrate ourselves because of how generous they are. No, you're paying to be more competitive, because you like to win or even dominate. And that's okay, but it doesn't give you any moral superiority over the free-to-play bunch - and vice versa, not buying anything doesn't make you better either. There are really two kinds of currency for every "free-to-play": hard cold cash or the time you spend on it. Competitive f2p players are grinding a lot more than most of the whales because they have to if they want to keep up. Kudos to anyone who doesn't splurge and ranks well - but cutting time needed to get to the fun parts with a few dollars here and there is equally valid.

TLDR: both sides of "pay2win" discussion should take a step back and chill a bit.

You can't be serious. The "I'm noble because I didn't pay for my roster" mentality is FAR more prevalent on the forums. I could show you ten examples of this mindset for every one whale that has acted like they are the savior of the game.

And no, not everyone that spends does it solely to be more competitive. I bought VIP on my Steam account that is in CL3 to support the game. I've spent HP on things like health packs to play my 4*s more because I enjoy it. I once spent HP to recover a TU so that I can resend it to an alliance mate that needed it for a hop. I'm fairly certain I'm the only person that has ever done this. Most are probably pulling out their phones/tablets/whatever right now to even see what I'm talking about because they never knew that was even a thing you could spend money on. I often buy outside of buy clubs. If all I cared about was being competitive I would never do that. Ever. So I pay to support a game that I enjoy, and you will not ever find a single instance of me acting like anyone here owes me anything for doing so.

Daredevil217

Welcome Death wrote:

What a thread. Can a mod just rename this "Fightmaster vs MPQ"? You could even include a modified version of the DP vs mpq graphic. Lots of things to reapond to...

Scaling: It's no rumor, the game DOES take into account levels, rarity and number of covers of characters to determine both scaling and mmr. Rostering a single 5 no longer does anything (it used to, doesnt now.) I dont remember about boosts exactly, but i am fairly certain boosts are taken into account as well...which totally defeats the purpose of boosts, unless their actual purpose is to limit usable roster and encourage use of health packs.

Softcapping: I think people are jumping to too many assumptions here. Based on the current game mechanic, should you champ strange or banner as your first 5* with nobody to go with him? I would say no because thats bad for pvp as well as pve. I dont believe thats what fight means, either. I know he doesnt mean being restricted by covers or iso or not having any 4s covered or not having any 5s covered. Thats not softcapping, thats a lack of resources. That being said, there is a number of players with several champed 4s, 5s max covered...that still wont level their 5s. One in particular I know has at least 3 5s max covered, over 35 4s champed....and doesnt level. I get why hes annoyed at this, because having the best characters in the game championed should give an advantage, and it doesnt unless its specific 5*. And the issue isnt with the levels of the AI team, those scale just fine, its the exponential scaling of abilities to the point that an enemy team can have much higher damage potential than your 5* team, and your team doesnt have the same damage potential / health as a 4* boosted team does. It's mostly a gameplay issue, and really does need to be addressed.

Spending vs ftp: I think it's really silly to condemn people that spend money on the game or who "bought their rosters". You are and always have been ftp? Good for you, but someones gotta pay for the game or the servers shut down and all the grinding in the world wont stop that. Would be interested to know what buying your roster consists of. If youve spent any money on the game at all, for shields, for roster slots, for anything, even vip, youve technically bought a part of your roster, however small, and increased your future potential for earning rewards. If thats the case, i suggest deleting your account and starting all over. Thats the only "real" way to earn all of your rewards "legitimately"

Softcapping/Scaling: I'm not going to worry about or get mad at how another player chooses to spend their iso.

Spending vs ftp: I'm not going to worry about or get mad at how another player chooses to build their roster.

I think that about sums it up. Oh by the way, I am free to play in the truest sense that you talk about. No VIP, no HP for roster spots, I just make tough decisions, sometimes had to sell covers, and hamper my progress because at the end of the day its fun to know that everything I have has been earned in game. That said, I absolutely love that whales support the game financially. I just personally couldn't enjoy it if I bought progress. Same with like NBA 2k. I like grinding and building my character up rather than buying virtual currency and maxing him out. The journey is a lot of fun for me, which is why I have said in other threads "don't tell me I get to progress when you don't understand my version of progress".

Piro_plock

Fightmastermpq wrote:

You can't be serious. The "I'm noble because I didn't pay for my roster" mentality is FAR more prevalent on the forums. I could show you ten examples of this mindset for every one whale that has acted like they are the savior of the game.

Maybe because there's a lot more free to plays than whales? I bet the fraction of those kinds of people is similar in both populations.

Fightmastermpq wrote:

And no, not everyone that spends does it solely to be more competitive. I bought VIP on my Steam account that is in CL3 to support the game. I've spent HP on things like health packs to play my 4*s more because I enjoy it. I once spent HP to recover a TU so that I can resend it to an alliance mate that needed it for a hop. I'm fairly certain I'm the only person that has ever done this. Most are probably pulling out their phones/tablets/whatever right now to even see what I'm talking about because they never knew that was even a thing you could spend money on. I often buy outside of buy clubs. If all I cared about was being competitive I would never do that. Ever. So I pay to support a game that I enjoy, and you will not ever find a single instance of me acting like anyone here owes me anything for doing so.

And kudos to you for wanting to support the game. Buuuut...
- All of VIP content is intended to speed up the development of roster. It's not a "thank you devs" package, it makes your game easier - more so for less advanced players, but many people started buying VIP solely because of intercepts (like myself). Any purchase turns the ads off, but VIP is the most bang for your buck and still something you can call a micropay - as opposed to what whales do... VIP is probably (my guess) their most popular purchase, because it's casual friendly.
- Even buying outside a buy club provides you with a lot of resources you need to advance, which gives you the competitive egde (not optimal, but still a serious advantage). Would you buy something for $10 to support the game even if you didn't get anything out of it (maybe other than a "thank you" note from developers)? I know I wouldn't.
- Recalling your TUs earlier is not something you do every day and its cost is puny (few hundred HP at most) compared to all other things you pretty much NEED to do to perform well (roster spots, shields, sometimes health packs). Also, by recalling it early you support your alliancemates, which in turn might help you earn more alliance rewards, yadda yadda. Any purchase you make gives you at least a potential advantage against others.

There are free to play games that offer purchases that are aesthetic only and do not influence competition, like skins in LoL for example (they do have boosts that increase XP gaining speed - but you still have to play to earn it, you can't just buy your way to the top). I wish there was something like that in MPQ, because then you could truly say you buy only to support the developers. Right now all available purchases influence competitive play in one way or another.

As to this...

Fightmastermpq wrote:

you will not ever find a single instance of me acting like anyone here owes me anything for doing so

...how about your earlier post:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

YEAH! tinykitty all those players that pay to support a game so I can play it for free, amirite?!?!?!?!?

Fightmastermpq

Piro_plock wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

You can't be serious. The "I'm noble because I didn't pay for my roster" mentality is FAR more prevalent on the forums. I could show you ten examples of this mindset for every one whale that has acted like they are the savior of the game.

Maybe because there's a lot more free to plays than whales? I bet the fraction of those kinds of people is similar in both populations.

Fightmastermpq wrote:

And no, not everyone that spends does it solely to be more competitive. I bought VIP on my Steam account that is in CL3 to support the game. I've spent HP on things like health packs to play my 4*s more because I enjoy it. I once spent HP to recover a TU so that I can resend it to an alliance mate that needed it for a hop. I'm fairly certain I'm the only person that has ever done this. Most are probably pulling out their phones/tablets/whatever right now to even see what I'm talking about because they never knew that was even a thing you could spend money on. I often buy outside of buy clubs. If all I cared about was being competitive I would never do that. Ever. So I pay to support a game that I enjoy, and you will not ever find a single instance of me acting like anyone here owes me anything for doing so.

And kudos to you for wanting to support the game. Buuuut...
- All of VIP content is intended to speed up the development of roster. It's not a "thank you devs" package, it makes your game easier - more so for less advanced players, but many people started buying VIP solely because of intercepts (like myself). Any purchase turns the ads off, but VIP is the most bang for your buck and still something you can call a micropay - as opposed to what whales do... VIP is probably (my guess) their most popular purchase, because it's casual friendly.
- Even buying outside a buy club provides you with a lot of resources you need to advance, which gives you the competitive egde (not optimal, but still a serious advantage). Would you buy something for $10 to support the game even if you didn't get anything out of it (maybe other than a "thank you" note from developers)? I know I wouldn't.
- Recalling your TUs earlier is not something you do every day and its cost is puny (few hundred HP at most) compared to all other things you pretty much NEED to do to perform well (roster spots, shields, sometimes health packs). Also, by recalling it early you support your alliancemates, which in turn might help you earn more alliance rewards, yadda yadda. Any purchase you make gives you at least a potential advantage against others.

There are free to play games that offer purchases that are aesthetic only and do not influence competition, like skins in LoL for example (they do have boosts that increase XP gaining speed - but you still have to play to earn it, you can't just buy your way to the top). I wish there was something like that in MPQ, because then you could truly say you buy only to support the developers. Right now all available purchases influence competitive play in one way or another.

As to this...

Fightmastermpq wrote:

you will not ever find a single instance of me acting like anyone here owes me anything for doing so

...how about your earlier post:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

YEAH! tinykitty all those players that pay to support a game so I can play it for free, amirite?!?!?!?!?

I can assure you that I didn't purchase VIP so that my alt can be more competitive in SCL3. I just collected the reward for day 24 of 28 today....while on day 22 of resupply.

Piro_plock

Fightmastermpq wrote:

I can assure you that I didn't purchase VIP so that my alt can be more competitive in SCL3. I just collected the reward for day 24 of 28 today....while on day 22 of resupply.

And that's great. You skipped a bit of the initial grind to bring the alt a little more up to speed. Still, you will probably enjoy playing that account more, right? You got something out of it, that was a transaction, not a donation. You didn't do that for the sake of other players, or at least so I presume. What is wrong with that? Absolutely nothing. Your money, your decision on how to spend it.

My point is: antagonising other players - either because they spend to increase their enjoyment from the game or because they do not spend, making you feel like they were leeching off you - is bad. Free players are a vital (and the largest) part of the community, so are occasional spenders. Before the in-game economy has undergone a significant skew towards the whales (with the introduction of Command Points), most of the income was probably generated by the smaller transactions, not the big ones, which in the context of the whole playerbase are few and far between. Now I'm not so sure, maybe BCs generate the majority of the revenue, maybe not. Still, f2p bring in some money too, ads and whatnot. What hardcore f2p players invest though is their time. Every similar game needs such people, otherwise it dies quickly. And like it will always be with hardcore players, they will strive to optimise their performance - for example by softcapping, which will allow them to place well in PVE, but most likely cripple the dreams of top ranks in PVP... Hating the players because they want to compete and prove themselves, simply put - to get the most out of the game, is irrational in my opinion. Friends should allow friends to play as they like.

Another thing to consider is that you can't reverse the effect of jumping into 5* tier fully - but you can eventually level your softcapped characters if you want! The decision about improving your roster should be obvious, but in this system it isn't. If you do that, you sacrifice something and there's no return. That should not be the case.

grunth13

StarScream wrote:

grunth13 wrote:

StarScream wrote:

I will do almost anything to piss off someone who bought their roster, so I suppose I am going to be softcapping my ***** characters when it is time.

All this hate is not good for your soul. Take a deep breathe, hold it and count to ten and then go find another game to play.

I have a better idea. Go annoy someone else.

You have a lot of hate in your heart...let it go. It will make your life better.

snlf25

stewbacca wrote:

I hate that people softcap. It's ridiculous for pve, how my team should be beaten constantly ( 7 5* champs) by people running softcapped teams. There is no way I can speed run through teams of 3 characters have 60k health each. That being said I blame the developers, and the only possible fix to make everyone actually strive to boost their rosters is to make scaling tie only to scl level. You cant compete with the big boys.. drop down until you can. In turn I think they should also lock out everything one or two scls lower so people with stacked teams can't drop down. The balance would become natural. And pve would become fun again, at least with everyone on a level playing field.

And those of us with weaker rosters hated what you guys did to us when Community Scaling was a thing. Now that the shoe is on the other foot everybody has Had a taste of the sour vintage stomped from the grapes of this broken system.

OneLastGambit

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Piro_plock wrote:

What I'm tired of is seeing whales act like they're some tinykitty saviors of the game and we should all prostrate ourselves because of how generous they are. No, you're paying to be more competitive, because you like to win or even dominate. And that's okay, but it doesn't give you any moral superiority over the free-to-play bunch - and vice versa, not buying anything doesn't make you better either. There are really two kinds of currency for every "free-to-play": hard cold cash or the time you spend on it. Competitive f2p players are grinding a lot more than most of the whales because they have to if they want to keep up. Kudos to anyone who doesn't splurge and ranks well - but cutting time needed to get to the fun parts with a few dollars here and there is equally valid.

TLDR: both sides of "pay2win" discussion should take a step back and chill a bit.

You can't be serious. The "I'm noble because I didn't pay for my roster" mentality is FAR more prevalent on the forums. I could show you ten examples of this mindset for every one whale that has acted like they are the savior of the game.

And no, not everyone that spends does it solely to be more competitive. I bought VIP on my Steam account that is in CL3 to support the game. I've spent HP on things like health packs to play my 4*s more because I enjoy it. I once spent HP to recover a TU so that I can resend it to an alliance mate that needed it for a hop. I'm fairly certain I'm the only person that has ever done this. Most are probably pulling out their phones/tablets/whatever right now to even see what I'm talking about because they never knew that was even a thing you could spend money on. I often buy outside of buy clubs. If all I cared about was being competitive I would never do that. Ever. So I pay to support a game that I enjoy, and you will not ever find a single instance of me acting like anyone here owes me anything for doing so.

I think his point may be that both sides of this argument are both valid and vocal. I don't think he is advocating taking either position (pro spend or pro f2p) here.

Personally I am quite glad that people spend massive sums of money on this game so I can play for almost free.

I also agree that I don't see any whales acting like 'saviours of the game'. In fact in my whole time as an MPQ player (600 days or so) I have not seen even one instance of this at all. And having spoken to a few vets I can say they never come across with that attitude. Now...some vets DO have that attitude sometimes but I see no correlation between spending and that attitude.

carrion_pigeons

I think the FTP crowd is less "I'm noble because I don't waste money on a game" and more "wasting money on this game results in devs making bad design decisions, so stop it."

I've spent enough money on the game that I can hardly call myself an ascetic, but I still absolutely agree with the second statement. If the devs implemented a monetization model that was less harmful, I would absolutely support spending money on the game.