Bonus Heroes/Vaulting= Evolving Metagame

Colognoisseur

One very good thing I approve of us with the new Bonus Hero/Vaulting change is it will re-energize the metagame. I’ve already seen this happen within the 5* tier in PvP and this change could have a similar effect on the 4* part of the player base.

As has been pointed out numerous time the overwhelming 5* metagame for the first year of those covers being available was Old Man Logan (OML) and Phoenix. They were the easiest to get because they were part of the first three to be released. As the pace picked up and the 5* tier expanded the focus was still on those two characters and it meant people continued to buy Classic tokens because of wanting to get those two covers as high as you got. What changed things was when the dilution in Classic finally reached a level where getting the cover you needed became very low. Then many players made a decision to hoard and wait until the set of three covers in Latest were appealing enough to cash in the hoarded tokens and CP. This has happened over the last few months starting with the Latest pack which had Black Widow/ Black Bolt/ Dr. Strange and it continued into the next rotation of Black Bolt/ Dr. Strange/Thanos. Now when I am facing off against 5* teams I am facing champed pairs of any two of these four characters. What I think is even better about this is these four also have different good pairings as well as pairing well with OML or Phoenix.

How might this translate to the 4* tier? I’ve written a series of articles over on the Character Discussion where I’ve discussed the 21 four stars released since the advent of 5*. I’ve called them The Irrelevant 7 because there are some really great characters which could be really fun to be incorporated in to the game. They were irrelevant because I started each post with the lament that most players had almost no chance to cover them because of the older 4* characters which were considered essential ( Jean Grey/Iceman/Prof X/ Cyke/Hulkbuster/Red Hulk) players were focused on attaining those covers because as with the OML/Phoenix example above these were what they had for longer periods of time and it was the right decision to apply your resources to building them up. If left alone nothing would have changed that even though the dilution was going to get worse. A stagnant metagame along with more recent players having a roster of a bunch of half-covered characters. I think it had the potential to really stratify the groups of players in a deleterious way.

What we have now is no more Irrelevant 7 but a very Relevant Dozen. Carol, Medusa, Peggy, and Bl4de are the top. I would place Gwenpool, Moon Knight, C4ge, Kate on the next tier and the remaining four Wasp, Agent Venom, Spider-Woman, and RiRi are not trash tier they are techy support characters that get much better the more covers and levels are in them. Having played with all of them amongst themselves I can tell you there are some great teams there to be discovered. If there was a 4* only tier I can tell you my A-Team would come from this dozen; there are more than a couple of great synergies here. I think that will become more evident as the next few weeks unfold and others also play with them as much as I have.

Yes I understand and acknowledge the frustration at the lack of warning this was coming but after the irritation has passed take a look at what the game is now presenting you. There is an opportunity for an evolving metagame which changes as characters rotate out of the most recent 12. It reminds me of the decision Magic: The Gathering made when they limited the cards to be used to only the most recent releases. That decision has helped keep that game a vital entity for over twenty years now. At the time that decision was met with a lot of irritation too. I am hopeful that this change can allow Marvel Puzzle Quest to retain an evolving metagame which will also allow it to last a long time too.

JablesMc

Colognoisseur wrote:

One very good thing I approve of us with the new Bonus Hero/Vaulting change is it will re-energize the metagame. I’ve already seen this happen within the 5* tier in PvP and this change could have a similar effect on the 4* part of the player base.

As has been pointed out numerous time the overwhelming 5* metagame for the first year of those covers being available was Old Man Logan (OML) and Phoenix. They were the easiest to get because they were part of the first three to be released. As the pace picked up and the 5* tier expanded the focus was still on those two characters and it meant people continued to buy Classic tokens because of wanting to get those two covers as high as you got. What changed things was when the dilution in Classic finally reached a level where getting the cover you needed became very low. Then many players made a decision to hoard and wait until the set of three covers in Latest were appealing enough to cash in the hoarded tokens and CP. This has happened over the last few months starting with the Latest pack which had Black Widow/ Black Bolt/ Dr. Strange and it continued into the next rotation of Black Bolt/ Dr. Strange/Thanos. Now when I am facing off against 5* teams I am facing champed pairs of any two of these four characters. What I think is even better about this is these four also have different good pairings as well as pairing well with OML or Phoenix.

How might this translate to the 4* tier? I’ve written a series of articles over on the Character Discussion where I’ve discussed the 21 four stars released since the advent of 5*. I’ve called them The Irrelevant 7 because there are some really great characters which could be really fun to be incorporated in to the game. They were irrelevant because I started each post with the lament that most players had almost no chance to cover them because of the older 4* characters which were considered essential ( Jean Grey/Iceman/Prof X/ Cyke/Hulkbuster/Red Hulk) players were focused on attaining those covers because as with the OML/Phoenix example above these were what they had for longer periods of time and it was the right decision to apply your resources to building them up. If left alone nothing would have changed that even though the dilution was going to get worse. A stagnant metagame along with more recent players having a roster of a bunch of half-covered characters. I think it had the potential to really stratify the groups of players in a deleterious way.

What we have now is no more Irrelevant 7 but a very Relevant Dozen. Carol, Medusa, Peggy, and Bl4de are the top. I would place Gwenpool, Moon Knight, C4ge, Kate on the next tier and the remaining four Wasp, Agent Venom, Spider-Woman, and RiRi are not trash tier they are techy support characters that get much better the more covers and levels are in them. Having played with all of them amongst themselves I can tell you there are some great teams there to be discovered. If there was a 4* only tier I can tell you my A-Team would come from this dozen; there are more than a couple of great synergies here. I think that will become more evident as the next few weeks unfold and others also play with them as much as I have.

Yes I understand and acknowledge the frustration at the lack of warning this was coming but after the irritation has passed take a look at what the game is now presenting you. There is an opportunity for an evolving metagame which changes as characters rotate out of the most recent 12. It reminds me of the decision Magic: The Gathering made when they limited the cards to be used to only the most recent releases. That decision has helped keep that game a vital entity for over twenty years now. At the time that decision was met with a lot of irritation too. I am hopeful that this change can allow Marvel Puzzle Quest to retain an evolving metagame which will also allow it to last a long time too.

This is my hope, and exactly why I have been withholding judgment until a later date.

fmftint

Colognoisseur wrote:

It reminds me of the decision Magic: The Gathering made when they limited the cards to be used to only the most recent releases. That decision has helped keep that game a vital entity for over twenty years now. At the time that decision was met with a lot of irritation too. I am hopeful that this change can allow Marvel Puzzle Quest to retain an evolving metagame which will also allow it to last a long time too.

Except they haven't done that, MPQ still requires you to roster and use EVERY character from 2-4

Many players now have 0 chance of obtaining the older 4 tier

Gmax101

While I recognise the raw power of Iceman, Jean Grey, HB and Punisher Max, they are often repetitive and dull to use.

My favourite characters to actually use (read, not the most powerful) are in the 12 or certainly the last 20.... the fact that powers are more interesting provides numerous opportunities for interactions significantly more interesting than Ironman Mk40 generates loads of AP and then Boom!

There is something highly amusing in using Coulson with Captain Marvel and War Machine....

Medusa and Peggy are absolute powerhouses which, if combined with a special tile producer can wreck teams...

some of the recent characters are simply more fun to play, and as this is a Match 3 game, that's pretty much all I care about. But the fact that I don't lose out on raw power is a nice bonus.

It should be an interesting couple of months as things shake out...

And with boosted characters, people can still use their older powerhouses.

SnowcaTT

I keep meaning to post a poll: did we start playing MPQ-2 the other day?

Feels like it. Sudden ability to accelerate at all levels, older covers mattering less, new acceleration impossible immediately due to ISO-flow.

Six months from now I don't see how almost everyone isn't running maxed 4*/5* rosters...just not the OLD characters mixed in.

n25philly

Gmax101 wrote:

And with boosted characters, people can still use their older powerhouses.

If they were lucky enough to get the, before they were walled away. For the rest of us, I guess it's too bad if you actually wanted them, right?

alphabeta

I agree with your view on the power of the vaulting to focus progression in the latest 12 but fior anyone not basically done with transition where is the ISO to come from to champion these characters?

You need to have 4389852 ISO to champion all 12 - maybe your lucky and have 4 or 5 championed but they are likely the older ones so first to drop out.

With 2 new 4*s being added in basically every season just to stand still you need to be earning 731642 ISO per season or 34840 per day.

And you won't have significant levels of ISO generated from championed levels of half you 3*s or nearly 3/4s of the available 4*s because you'll see a cover for them only once in a blue moon.

Not to mention all the XP lost out on progressing people through shield clearance levels - another route to much needed ISO that just took a huge kick.

If this had been accompanied by a slashing in the cost of championing a 4* to the point that it was viable to ever end up with half to three quarters of those in latest 12 championed for anything but a whale then maybe things would have calmed down over time but the hoped for play diversity is unlikely to occur with such a hit to in game economy and I fear frustration will only grow not deminish over time as people feel the impact of this and the rate of progress in game slows for the vast majority not increases.

Cover availability below 5* tier has not been the limiting factor in progress so this is in effect a solution where a problem didn't exist when better ones have been asked for for years (colourless covers!!!). But has created a huge (hopefully unintended) impact on other aspects of the ecosystem of the game.

TimGunn

alphabeta wrote:

...

With 2 new 4*s being added in basically every season just to stand still you need to be earning 731642 ISO per season or 34840 per day.
....

28 days between start of a season and the beginning of the next season. There are 10 PVP tournaments in season plus 2 off season tournaments = 12 tournaments = 4 weeks = 28 days. You have 28 days before the characters will rotate.

731,642 / 28 = 26,130

Requires some intense play, but achievable.

But guess you'll have to give up on them at some point if you ever want to level a 5 star.

broll

You miss spelled devolving...

OneLastGambit

You know I (and probably everyone else) hadn't even considered this aspect of the game and it is quite a positive one. There is still the issue of being able to cover and champion any of those 12 within their 6 month rotation but its a positive none the less

Stax the Foyer

I think this is a very thoughtful post, and particularly relevant to two groups of players: (1) people who don't yet have a deep bench of 4*s, and (2) people whose 4* acquisition rate is such that the new characters will reach viability within the period of time that they're part of the Latest 12. Basically, anyone who expects to have a better-covered Mordo or Coulson when they leave tokens than their current best 4*s.

For other people, if you're already dipping your toes into the 5* tier, I don't think this will shake up the meta in a big way. It'll change the people that you champion, but not necessarily the people that you'll use.

The 5* tier is much easier to shake up than the 4* tier, because the barrier to entry there is 13 covers (or less). The barrier to entry for 4*s is much higher, although non-damage support can make up for lower levels.

I think it'll change things some, but not anywhere near as much as you've seen at the 5* tier.

GrumpySmurf1002

I agree that long term this probably ends up being healthy for the game. But man, does it suck that it got dropped on us with a moments notice.

Personally, I'm caught in limbo now with a hoard of around 120 pulls, knowing that considerably more of my 4* would be burned than previous. Had I known vaulting was part of the change (it wasn't in any spoilers that I saw), I'd have easily cashed in and dealt with the fallout of not quite optimizing my 5* pulls. Having 28/4x 4* champed is a bit better than 4 of 12 for 'waste.'

Instead, I'm almost 'trapped' in hoarding longer to build up more of an iso reserve. But 2 of the 4 I have champed will be the first to roll out, making the iso needed even larger. That will keep snowballing with each roll out, so basically I'm stuck between killing my progress for 4-6 months or applying my resources sub-optimally and lagging further behind. It's a gross spot, and it's a bit obnoxious that they dropped a bomb like this so quickly.

zodiac339

I wonder (hope actually) if the older epics will start a vaulting transition as well. Since I'm not a whale, 4 star heroes remain the most important to me, with the 5 star ones being more trophy than usable. While OML holds a place as regen tank, I typically use him in PVE rather than PVP. I can't justify using precious resources (ISO) to add expensive levels to him while Legendary characters hit their 13 covers and sit in waiting, watching potential Champion levels slip away as excess covers are sold. Legendary from tokens make me happy to know Venom will stop stalking me, and if I get a black PunMAX instead of a blue or green, I can favorite him, then go though classic store and heroic tokens until that 13th cover drops. In the next day's, I have a good chance of completing Peggy and using her for sweet revenge in the Simulator. If not, fine. Favorite at my leisure and hold onto ISO, while making newer heroes legit viable. With Spider Woman at 12 and Medusa at 10, that situation is surprisingly close. Epics, with the low drop rate, still have blessed me with 10 OML covers, 9 Surfers, and 7 Phoenix with each of them having a 4 cover power. I want them to start leaving the store. I don't want to get to the point of opening a pack, seeing that purple, then sighing as I sell my prize. I approve of vaulting. It's not for everyone, no, and new players are certainly at a disadvantage, but it's not the end of the game.

TetsujinOni

zodiac339 wrote:

I can't justify using precious resources (ISO) to add expensive levels to him while Legendary characters hit their 13 covers and sit in waiting, watching potential Champion levels slip away as excess covers are sold.

Epics, with the low drop rate, still have blessed me with 10 OML covers, 9 Surfers, and 7 Phoenix with each of them having a 4 cover power. I want them to start leaving the store. I don't want to get to the point of opening a pack, seeing that purple, then sighing as I sell my prize. I approve of vaulting. It's not for everyone, no, and new players are certainly at a disadvantage, but it's not the end of the game.

Oh good lord.

Assuming an even half-OK cover distribution: level your OML. No single champ 4* under level 320 is going to exceed the benefits you'll see from rolling a 390-405 OML.

Azoth658

TetsujinOni wrote:

zodiac339 wrote:

I can't justify using precious resources (ISO) to add expensive levels to him while Legendary characters hit their 13 covers and sit in waiting, watching potential Champion levels slip away as excess covers are sold.

Epics, with the low drop rate, still have blessed me with 10 OML covers, 9 Surfers, and 7 Phoenix with each of them having a 4 cover power. I want them to start leaving the store. I don't want to get to the point of opening a pack, seeing that purple, then sighing as I sell my prize. I approve of vaulting. It's not for everyone, no, and new players are certainly at a disadvantage, but it's not the end of the game.

Oh good lord.

Assuming an even half-OK cover distribution: level your OML. No single champ 4* under level 320 is going to exceed the benefits you'll see from rolling a 390-405 OML.

I disagree many champ for stars exceed the benefit of that OML and that benefit is fun. OML instantly becomes either game breaking or a crutch and by not pushing him to the top of your roster you get to play with other characters.

Seriously anyone out there has pushed OML to a strong position tally how many battles you fight and how many times you included him.

When you're fighting the majority of battles with the same team over and over week in and week out the game becomes stale. It's the reason I only dabble with PvP because to score high you end up using and fighting the same teams. Peggy, iceman, Hulk buster etc etc

I think bonus heroes are a great addition although I'd like the odds to be higher as I've pulled about two now in a ton of tokens definitely below the odds for me. 0 four stars and five stars.

Pentagoon

fmftint wrote:

Colognoisseur wrote:

It reminds me of the decision Magic: The Gathering made when they limited the cards to be used to only the most recent releases. That decision has helped keep that game a vital entity for over twenty years now. At the time that decision was met with a lot of irritation too. I am hopeful that this change can allow Marvel Puzzle Quest to retain an evolving metagame which will also allow it to last a long time too.

Except they haven't done that, MPQ still requires you to roster and use EVERY character from 2-4

Many players now have 0 chance of obtaining the older 4 tier

Not true - scroll to the right in your roster and you can see that you can favorite characters that you don't have any covers for yet. If you want Hulkbuster for example, just select him as your only 4* favorite and any bonus pulls you get will be all Hulkbuster. It's a great way to get older covers when they are not in the latest rotation for pulls.

n25philly

Telling casual players to get lost is evolution, eh? Guess evolution is tell me I am no longer welcome in this game. What a shame

Pentagoon

n25philly wrote:

Telling casual players to get lost is evolution, eh? Guess evolution is tell me I am no longer welcome in this game. What a shame

Casual players are absolutely welcome! You make great targets in PVP

OneLastGambit

Pentagoon wrote:

fmftint wrote:

Colognoisseur wrote:

It reminds me of the decision Magic: The Gathering made when they limited the cards to be used to only the most recent releases. That decision has helped keep that game a vital entity for over twenty years now. At the time that decision was met with a lot of irritation too. I am hopeful that this change can allow Marvel Puzzle Quest to retain an evolving metagame which will also allow it to last a long time too.

Except they haven't done that, MPQ still requires you to roster and use EVERY character from 2-4

Many players now have 0 chance of obtaining the older 4 tier

Not true - scroll to the right in your roster and you can see that you can favorite characters that you don't have any covers for yet. If you want Hulkbuster for example, just select him as your only 4* favorite and any bonus pulls you get will be all Hulkbuster. It's a great way to get older covers when they are not in the latest rotation for pulls.

And actually the odds of receiving a hulkbuster via this method are better too (unless I'm mistaken).

Odds of hulkbuster in bonus heroes is 5%
Odds of hulkbuster previously was 1.5%

Yes yes I know, its RNG on top of RNG but the fact remains... 5% is better than 1.5%.

Omega Red

Colognoisseur wrote:

Yes I understand and acknowledge the frustration at the lack of warning this was coming but after the irritation has passed take a look at what the game is now presenting you. There is an opportunity for an evolving metagame which changes as characters rotate out of the most recent 12. It reminds me of the decision Magic: The Gathering made when they limited the cards to be used to only the most recent releases. That decision has helped keep that game a vital entity for over twenty years now. At the time that decision was met with a lot of irritation too. I am hopeful that this change can allow Marvel Puzzle Quest to retain an evolving metagame which will also allow it to last a long time too.

This is pretty much what I've been arguing in the main announcement thread. There's opportunities there for those willing to take advantage of them. New ways to build characters and gain an edge. It's all about making smart choices.

SnowcaTT

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

I agree that long term this probably ends up being healthy for the game. But man, does it suck that it got dropped on us with a moments notice.

Personally, I'm caught in limbo now with a hoard of around 120 pulls, knowing that considerably more of my 4* would be burned than previous. Had I known vaulting was part of the change (it wasn't in any spoilers that I saw), I'd have easily cashed in and dealt with the fallout of not quite optimizing my 5* pulls. Having 28/4x 4* champed is a bit better than 4 of 12 for 'waste.'

Instead, I'm almost 'trapped' in hoarding longer to build up more of an iso reserve. But 2 of the 4 I have champed will be the first to roll out, making the iso needed even larger. That will keep snowballing with each roll out, so basically I'm stuck between killing my progress for 4-6 months or applying my resources sub-optimally and lagging further behind. It's a gross spot, and it's a bit obnoxious that they dropped a bomb like this so quickly.

For the longest time our game-play has largely mirrored each other, GS. Preach on brother - same situation here. Would have loved some notice so I could have spent a few days ago.

Would have loved even more the option to spend on new 4*'s in latests (good to accelerate new players) -or- old 4*'s in classics (good to keep old players). Wish -BOTH- playerbases were considered here....