Champ levels have not been invalidated

Xenoberyll

Spiritclaw wrote:

As I understand the change, the majority of characters will not be available in token packs at any given time unless you choose them for your bonus hero. I've gotten two Iceman covers and a 3* Strange as bonus heroes in the first 24 hours of this feature. I'm not sure why people aren't perceiving more choice as a wholly good thing.

Gratz! You're one of the lucky guys. Chance to pull a 4 star from a LT is 4.25 % but your post doesn't read like you opened 60 tokens to get the icemen.

Vhailorx

Spiritclaw wrote:

Previously, we had no control whatsoever over 100% of our token pulls. Now we control 5% of our token pulls. We're also now getting 105% of the number of covers. The chances of getting a specific needed character was getting smaller and smaller, and as I recall it was a lot smaller than 5%. The random stuff is now concentrated on a specific group, but you can still get a specific character of your choice more often than you could have last week.

This is not a bad thing.

No one is saying that the favorites system is bad. People like controlling an extra 5% of their pulls for a total of 105% token pulls. But you seem to be ignoring that a very large portion of remaining 100% may be substantially less valuable than they were before.

You can't judge the new system as a whole without accounting for that that fact. Now for you, the +5% of chosen pulls may be valuable. It may even be super-valuable. so much so that you are cool wasting some 30 or 40% of your RNG pulls. But that doesn't mean that everyone will agree with you.

Xenoberyll

Spiritclaw wrote:

Previously, we had no control whatsoever over 100% of our token pulls. Now we control 5% of our token pulls.

I champed 34 of my 4 stars to get kind of control over those pulls. Now i have the latest dozen to work with, many of them not champed yet and no ISO to do so in time either. So where i was getting rewarded for almost every pull i made before, now i will have to burn a large number of covers for ISO.

Also you control only 1/3 of those 5 % which you may find out when you have a 5/5/0 character you want to complete with Bogus Heroes.

OneLastGambit

Wait hold on?


People seem to be again assuming that they will never again receive a cover for an old character. Are they truly vaulted if you can still earn them? Nope. Is it slower? Yes. No argument against that, well actually there is.

Is it slower? Ummm sometimes yes sometimes no. Example: My Teen Jean currently sits at 1/5/5 Where she has sat for the last year because all ive drawn in the last 21 teen jean tokens is green or blue. That's 21 wasted tokens which have slowed my progress on that character under the old system.

Under the new system my medusa has gone from 1/1/1 to 3/2/3 in the space of a day. Clearly much faster. I'll wager money that I will see champ rewards on Medusa in the new system way before I would see champ rewards for teen jean under the old system, because even though I will likely pull myself into a deadend on one colour I will pull far more medusas than I ever would Jean because the pulls are focused. I would argue it is quicker and easier to champ a new character now than it was to champ an old character in the old system. That's just my opinion though.

Old Characters are not vaulted - they are restricted. Vaulted means unavailable and they are not unavailable. You can still earn covers for old characters via progression and placement prizes (both of which are not massively hard to come by in pve if you know what you are doing and playing regularly and often) so you will still earn champ rewards for old characters. They are not stalled or useless, they are just a bit slower.

The sky is not falling. The world is not ending. Some digital products on a mobile match 3 game have changed slightly.

Bowgentle

According to the roster in your sig, your highest champ is 284.

Now put yourself in the shoes of someone with 15+ level 320+ champs, and all the rest of the 4s champed.

You used to generate a massive amount of resources from the high champs.
That stream of resources has now slowed down massively.

Sure I can pick ONE char to get more covers from - if I'm lucky and trigger the bonus draw.
But at the same time, all those random pulls that used to slowly bring my 4s to 320 and beyond are now going to bring new 4s to 280 and beyond, where the rewards are massively lower than at 320+.

So yeah, I still have all my champed 4s, but the ISO I put into them to never waste a pull again could have gone towards leveling my undercovered 5s.

And don't even get me started on not being able to use my 4s with my 5s because they need to be 330+ for that - a point I was getting to with 5 or 6 characters.

OneLastGambit

Bowgentle wrote:

According to the roster in your sig, your highest champ is 284.

Now put yourself in the shoes of someone with 15+ level 320+ champs, and all the rest of the 4s champed.

You used to generate a massive amount of resources from the high champs.
That stream of resources has now slowed down massively.

Sure I can pick ONE char to get more covers from - if I'm lucky and trigger the bonus draw.
But at the same time, all those random pulls that used to slowly bring my 4s to 320 and beyond are now going to bring new 4s to 280 and beyond, where the rewards are massively lower than at 320+.

So yeah, I still have all my champed 4s, but the ISO I put into them to never waste a pull again could have gone towards leveling my undercovered 5s.

And don't even get me started on not being able to use my 4s with my 5s because they need to be 330+ for that - a point I was getting to with 5 or 6 characters.

Ok so your position here makes more sense and is more rational than the forum one of the last couple of days. You are saying that the resource flow is slower due to the lower availability of older 4* covers - This is accurate and something I completely agree with.

all I was trying to say (perhaps I didn't illustrate it well enough) was that the argument that older 4s were now both useless and unable to improve is a faulty argument.

My roster is a bit out of date BTW my highest is 290

I think the main issue the forum has had is that when a change happens they start to think in absolutes. A more balanced and rational approach (like yours) can see that yes certain resources will be slower but none will be completely stopped.

EDIT: Oh hey I also forgot there are older covers available in champ rewards for 3* too but I will concede that these are both few and again hampered by the smaller 3* pool as well.

EDIT 2: Also just remembered you can still get old covers in vaults for events or those *awesome* single character vaults.
So currently you can get old covers via:
PVE Progression and placement
PVP Progression and Placement
Vault tokens
Tacos
Champ levels from 3* (restricted)

Crowl

OneLastGambit wrote:

I think the main issue the forum has had is that when a change happens they start to think in absolutes. A more balanced and rational approach (like yours) can see that yes certain resources will be slower but none will be completely stopped.

While not completely stopped, with the number of 4*s in the game, the two reliable methods of obtaining an older character will be pve and pve progression rewards and those will crop up roughly twice a year each, so on average the existing champs will gain a cover every 3 months so while not strictly correct to call them completely stopped, it is pretty close to it.

OneLastGambit

Crowl wrote:

OneLastGambit wrote:

I think the main issue the forum has had is that when a change happens they start to think in absolutes. A more balanced and rational approach (like yours) can see that yes certain resources will be slower but none will be completely stopped.

While not completely stopped, with the number of 4*s in the game, the two reliable methods of obtaining an older character will be pve and pve progression rewards and those will crop up roughly twice a year each, so on average the existing champs will gain a cover every 3 months so while not strictly correct to call them completely stopped, it is pretty close to it.

You missed out PVP progression as well. PVP placement is for high end players but if you have multiple champs already (and if said person is lamenting the loss of old covers they probably have) then the 900 cover is easily attainable.

Also the "older" characters seem to feature as prizes far more often than new ones do, maybe that's just my perception though and someone can provide a list of this seasons prizes to settle that.

Quebbster

OneLastGambit wrote:

Also the "older" characters seem to feature as prizes far more often than new ones do, maybe that's just my perception though and someone can provide a list of this seasons prizes to settle that.

PvP fourstar rewards (both progression and placement) come in alphabetical order. There's bound to be a lot of old characters popping up that way.

OneLastGambit

Quebbster wrote:

OneLastGambit wrote:

Also the "older" characters seem to feature as prizes far more often than new ones do, maybe that's just my perception though and someone can provide a list of this seasons prizes to settle that.

PvP fourstar rewards (both progression and placement) come in alphabetical order. There's bound to be a lot of old characters popping up that way.

Thanks Quebbster for that info.

Crowl

OneLastGambit wrote:

You missed out PVP progression as well. PVP placement is for high end players but if you have multiple champs already (and if said person is lamenting the loss of old covers they probably have) then the 900 cover is easily attainable.

I didn't miss it out at all, pvp and pve progression twice a year equals roughly one cover every 3 months, we only get one cover per event usually don't forget.

OneLastGambit

Crowl wrote:

OneLastGambit wrote:

You missed out PVP progression as well. PVP placement is for high end players but if you have multiple champs already (and if said person is lamenting the loss of old covers they probably have) then the 900 cover is easily attainable.

I didn't miss it out at all, pvp and pve progression twice a year equals roughly one cover every 3 months, we only get one cover per event usually don't forget.

My apologies I misread your message. Though I would argue that PVE will have 3 covers available (2 in placement and 1 in progression) as t10 is not too hard if you know how to take advantage of the bracket system, which most vets do. I won't argue t2 is easy, I've done it and concede that its not realistic without massive time and effort.

Crowl

OneLastGambit wrote:

My apologies I misread your message. Though I would argue that PVE will have 3 covers available (2 in placement and 1 in progression) as t10 is not too hard if you know how to take advantage of the bracket system, which most vets do. I won't argue t2 is easy, I've done it and concede that its not realistic without massive time and effort.

T10 is available to 1% of players, even trying to take advantage of brackets does not change that point so the realistic covers to consider should be those from progression, which probably should have been 5 not 4 due to pvp coming around slightly quicker, but even then it still only means an average of one new cover every 2.5 months instead of 3.

OneLastGambit

Crowl wrote:

OneLastGambit wrote:

My apologies I misread your message. Though I would argue that PVE will have 3 covers available (2 in placement and 1 in progression) as t10 is not too hard if you know how to take advantage of the bracket system, which most vets do. I won't argue t2 is easy, I've done it and concede that its not realistic without massive time and effort.

T10 is available to 1% of players, even trying to take advantage of brackets does not change that point so the realistic covers to consider should be those from progression, which probably should have been 5 not 4 due to pvp coming around slightly quicker, but even then it still only means an average of one new cover every 2.5 months instead of 3.

Hmmm in PVE I think that it's possible for players of any level above 2* to get t10. I got t10 as a 3* player in pve a couple of times. It was more work that's true but it wasn't any harder really. It's available to 1% of players but that assumption that the t10 finishers are also the top 1% of the game isn't true. If you have 1 cover of all essentials, the time to grind a little and access to Line bracket check rooms then you can place t10 regardless of roster level. One could even argue it's easier for a lower end player as their scaling is not nightmarish like high end players

OneLastGambit

aesthetocyst wrote:

OneLastGambit wrote:

So currently you can get old covers via:

PVE Progression and placement [approx 2x a year as the events slowly rotate through all characters. Dilution will continue to slow this rotation. 4* placement rewards limited to top 1% even in highest SCL]
PVP Progression and Placement [approx 4x a year as the events slowly rotate through all characters. Dilution will continue to slow this rotation. 4* placement rewards limited to top 1% even in highest SCL]

Vault tokens [Drop quite rarely, unless one is whaling out vaults]
Tacos [Drops extremely rarely, statistical expectation is 5 covers a year]
Champ levels from 3* (restricted)

Added some notes there to demonstrate that added all together, even for players who are hitting all of these (high placements and whaling) these sources have not been the major source of covers for 4*s.

The vaults aren't significant sources for those not spending highly and regularly.

Placements are significant sources for ... well, just about anyone. Only the extreme hardcore (or lucky, or very new) in PvE, and certainly not for new or casual players in PvP.

A year ago this day, my roster had a total of 265 4* covers applied today. 21 champ levels.

Today, it has 1305 4* covers applied to it. 734 champ levels.

That's a gain of 1040 in a year, nearly 3 a day. The 2 4* champs I had a year ago gained 30 levels over that year. They would have gained more over the coming year.

Compare that rate to the numbers above. I don't record where all covers come from (who has the time...), but it is clear the vast majority came from tokens.

Now those oldest champs will advance barely at all, only from the sources you list, plus a tiny trickle from BH. 10 levels or less over the next year it seems.

My flow of LTs and CP had been increasing. Now I am hoping it will at least hold steady.

New 4s will cover faster ... assuming I am opening tokens, which I will not be for awhile, as my odds of pulling anything useful has cratered, and would go lower still if I covered more new 4s. Covering and champing new toons is great, but then they too, will grind to a halt when they drop from tokens.

Roster-building used to be an accelerating process, thanks to championing. A feedback process. Feed the monkey, the more you feed it the more you win. This feedback was a great hook, helped retain older players.

It appears, OOLG, that that is over, or at best much curtailed. Now it will be feed the monkey for the privilege of treading water.

Oh, and still hosed on 5*s, with their portion of Classics still diluted all to hell. No vaulting there

TL;DR - OOLG, your once bright and promising champ rewarding future .... has been surgically excised.

But you're also overlooking the fact that the exact same process will happen again with the anointed 12. Only a lot LOT faster. Yes I can't speed champ the other 30 something but I can ultra speed champ whomever the newest is.
The newest one will be Coulson right? He will rotate out in 11 months time. considering you are very likely to champ him very quickly due to the concentration of tokens in the new pool - you are then very likely to add a high amount of champ levels to Coulson for the same reason.

I would then find myself in a position where my brand new Coulson is higher than my highest old guy (IMHB level 300) at the end of coulsons rotation. Once you have the illustrious 12 champed their champ level progress will be much much quicker than any of your old characters. The issue is getting them champed - which again will be far quicker than any of the old guys.

I think the reason people are upset is because of the sunk cost in the old characters. It's not wasted though, you'll still level them from time to time but at the same time you will bring all those new characters up to their level very quickly.

OneLastGambit

aesthetocyst wrote:

OneLastGambit wrote:

So currently you can get old covers via:

PVE Progression and placement [approx 2x a year as the events slowly rotate through all characters. Dilution will continue to slow this rotation. 4* placement rewards limited to top 1% even in highest SCL]
PVP Progression and Placement [approx 4x a year as the events slowly rotate through all characters. Dilution will continue to slow this rotation. 4* placement rewards limited to top 1% even in highest SCL]

Vault tokens [Drop quite rarely, unless one is whaling out vaults]
Tacos [Drops extremely rarely, statistical expectation is 5 covers a year]
Champ levels from 3* (restricted)

Oh, and still hosed on 5*s, with their portion of Classics still diluted all to hell. No vaulting there

My lord...imagine the outrage if they had vaulted some 5s.....

GrumpySmurf1002

OneLastGambit wrote:

The newest one will be Coulson right? He will rotate out in 11 months time.

Gonna be a lot faster than that. Characters rotate out every season. For example, you have 2 rolling out after this season (MK, KB) to make room for Mordo/Coulson. Probably only one next season, but probably 2 after that.

Best case is you'll have about 224 days (about 7.5 months), but in most cases it'll likely be 196 days, or about 6.5 months.

A_Wise_Man

Spiritclaw wrote:

As I understand the change, the majority of characters will not be available in token packs at any given time unless you choose them for your bonus hero. I've gotten two Iceman covers and a 3* Strange as bonus heroes in the first 24 hours of this feature. I'm not sure why people aren't perceiving more choice as a wholly good thing.

Thats very good for you, but unless youre opening about 200 heroics or 48 Legendaries a day, you wont be getting anywhere near that many Icemen in a day. Odds are youll be singing a different tune in a week or two.

Bowgentle

OneLastGambit wrote:

But you're also overlooking the fact that the exact same process will happen again with the anointed 12. Only a lot LOT faster. Yes I can't speed champ the other 30 something but I can ultra speed champ whomever the newest is.
The newest one will be Coulson right? He will rotate out in 11 months time. considering you are very likely to champ him very quickly due to the concentration of tokens in the new pool - you are then very likely to add a high amount of champ levels to Coulson for the same reason.

I would then find myself in a position where my brand new Coulson is higher than my highest old guy (IMHB level 300) at the end of coulsons rotation.

Let's have a look at the rewards.
I'm ignoring LTs because they will come every ten levels regardless of where your champ is.

Your level 300 Coulson will generate:
36 CP
17000 ISO
450 Hero Points

From level 300 to 330 a 4* champ will generate:
55 CP
25000 ISO
700 HP

From 330 to 340 a 4* champ will generate:
28 CP
8500 ISO
400 HP

So those ten levels I will not get on my older 4s generate almost as many CP and HP as the awesome 30 levels your Coulson will get before he rotates out.

See the problem now?

Dayv

Please keep it civil, everyone.