MMR needs balancing

Fightmastermpq

In the Lethal Intent event I ran into a strange issue with 5* MMR. I was climbing with about 14h left in the event and noticed that the #3 player in my bracket was unshielded. He was less than 400 points ahead of me with a score of 1229:

I spent upwards of 500 ISO skipping to find him, but kept cycling through the same 5 or 6 teams with dual 5*s (most of which were in my alliance, the 2 that weren't were worth less than 20 points.) So I checked the leaderboard again and see he is still unshielded and check his roster to find this:

Why is MMR shielding him from me??? This makes no sense at all.

Here is my roster for reference, but it really doesn't matter. This person is only 400 point ahead of me and has hit max progression, we should be able to find each other regardless of what our rosters are.

I get that this isn't the norm (I wouldn't have even tried skipping to find him if I were below 800), but it still happened and is a very clear example of a broken system.

DesertTortoise

My understanding is your MMR dictates who you fight and is separate from who is in your SCL bracket. If you hopped into SCL1 you'd still fight the same people based on your MMR but your leaderboard would be a bunch of 1 and 2-star rosters who you'd never be able to face head to head.

mohio

DesertTortoise wrote:

My understanding is your MMR dictates who you fight and is separate from who is in your SCL bracket. If you hopped into SCL1 you'd still fight the same people based on your MMR but your leaderboard would be a bunch of 1 and 2-star rosters who you'd never be able to face head to head.

The first part is true - but at some point you are SUPPOSED to be able to be seen by anyone no matter what their MMR. Otherwise anyone at the top of their MMR "bucket" or whatever would be able climb higher than others since they are king of their territory and can't be found by anyone higher. Fightmaster's point is that it's ridiculous that he shouldn't be able to find any target higher than him after he's crossed 800 points. At that point your MMR should open up to include a wider range of targets, but apparently for him and his roster it does not. My guess is the level is just set higher, maybe 900 points, maybe 1000 points. Is that fair though? I don't think so, but at the same time there should be some limit right?

Polares

The problem is that this person is a 4 player, and you are a 5 player, so if you were able to see him it would be almost like fighting against a cupcake! Really easy fight for you. There is a big difference between both. It doesn't matter that you are over 1200. That person would be hit all the time by much stronger teams!

It is the same thing than 4 players not seeing 3 players and 3 players not seeing 2 players. It is a matter of having a fair play field.

grunth13

Polares wrote:

The problem is that this person is a 4 player, and you are a 5 player, so if you were able to see him it would be almost like fighting against a cupcake! Really easy fight for you. There is a big difference between both. It doesn't matter that you are over 1200. That person would be hit all the time by much stronger teams!

It is the same thing than 4 players not seeing 3 players and 3 players not seeing 2 players. It is a matter of having a fair play field.

But its not fair, because if that's the case everyone is compartmentalized and should not be playing for the same trophies. In this situation, if fightmaster never finds any high q targets, that 12xx 4star play will beat him...that is not PVP. If you want to compartmentalize it this way, then limit people in what clearance level bracket they can join since they can only fight against those people.

Fightmastermpq

grunth13 wrote:

Polares wrote:

The problem is that this person is a 4 player, and you are a 5 player, so if you were able to see him it would be almost like fighting against a cupcake! Really easy fight for you. There is a big difference between both. It doesn't matter that you are over 1200. That person would be hit all the time by much stronger teams!

It is the same thing than 4 players not seeing 3 players and 3 players not seeing 2 players. It is a matter of having a fair play field.

But its not fair, because if that's the case everyone is compartmentalized and should not be playing for the same trophies. In this situation, if fightmaster never finds any high q targets, that 12xx 4star play will beat him...that is not PVP. If you want to compartmentalize it this way, then limit people in what clearance level bracket they can join since they can only fight against those people.

Exactly right. Earlier in the event I had a similar problem with the guy in 1st in this pic. I was a little lower and didn't think as much of it, but ultimately he ended up finishing in 2nd earning two 4*s covers over other guys that had no shot of beating him because they couldn't queue him.

I understand that you compete to score the most points, and not necessarily directly against each other, but I think at the very least people in the same bracket ought to be able to queue each other to fight for placement.

This issue has really compounded with the most recent change to progression rewards. With a lot of 4* players stopping at 900 events do often turn into 5*s only ever playing against other 5*s, but for the same placement rewards as the 4* rosters that are often able to score just as high.

Ducky

When a person becomes available to be seen by everyone is when they reach a certain percentage of top scorers. I believe it is top 5% of scores. Now with the addition of time slices, I don't know if that was percentage was global (all slices taken into account) or compartmentalized by slices. I'd hope that it was by slice (in which case he should have been visible to you), but you never know how they have these things set up.

People often confuse the 1000 point mark (previously was 800) where the break even point for scoring stops for when you become open to all to see. They are not the same.

TetsujinOni

Should definitely be per-shard, but 1229 with 14 hours to go was no where near the top 5% of scores in Shard 4.

vaportrail

You needed to climb higher to find that team and break through mmr. Too many folks in your score range with similar rosters.

Fightmastermpq

vaportrail wrote:

You needed to climb higher to find that team and break through mmr. Too many folks in your score range with similar rosters.

By "too many" do you mean 5 or 6? Because that's all I found after skipping more than 50 times. I cycled through the same names a dozen times. I understand what I "needed" to do, my point is that it's broken and needs to be re-balanced.

I'd also love for "similar rosters" to be determined almost entirely by covers, not level.

therightwaye

They need an Open Gym option.

WelcomeDeath

If there are more than 6 people "out" with similar roster strength to you at the same score or higher, you cannot find lower rosters (or higher rosters, for that matter) Tested this a bunch in the cc days for finding cc, same rules apply to A teams. 6 seems like a REALLY low number for maximum, but every time ive seen that 7th person shield, suddenly i can find random qs, given that 2 active qs are taken up by 2 nodes. THIS is part of the problem, expecially in the 5* tier. And, yeah, theres no magic score. It all depends on roster strength / current score / current score of others in shard with similar rosters unshielded/ etc.

Mr_Sinister

So it needs a rebalance for you to find high value, easy victory matches....ok

Evilgenius_9

Or it's a display glitch not showing said target as shielded when she really was (maybe across platforms or something). Because this game never has bugs, right?

Pongie

Fightmastermpq wrote:

he ended up finishing in 2nd earning two 5*s covers

If only it was that easy to earn 5* covers...

Fightmastermpq

Pongie wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

he ended up finishing in 2nd earning two 5*s covers

If only it was that easy to earn 5* covers...

Ha! Whoops...edited to reflect his actual 2x 4* prize.

acescracked

Mr_Sinister wrote:

So it needs a rebalance for you to find high value, easy victory matches....ok

Whoa, you just completely missed the whole point. Not what Fight is remotely asking for.

He wants to play for placement. There is a player with 1229 points in 2nd place in a bracket he is in. This is slice 5 where scores are not that high. The game's MMR will not let him q that player.

Should there be a point threshold where everyone can be q'd by everyone?

Mr_Sinister

acescracked wrote:

Mr_Sinister wrote:

So it needs a rebalance for you to find high value, easy victory matches....ok

Whoa, you just completely missed the whole point. Not what Fight is remotely asking for.

He wants to play for placement. There is a player with 1229 points in 2nd place in a bracket he is in. This is slice 5 where scores are not that high. The game's MMR will not let him q that player.

Should there be a point threshold where everyone can be q'd by everyone?

No.

And he clearly stated in his post he was trying to q that player, so i don't see how I missed the point. The player was not shielded, FightmasterMPQ feels he should be able to q him despite the fact he's hundreds of levels higher and an entire tier above that player. He wanted to club a seal for high points for easy t5 and is whining it didn't happen. Too bad. If he wants to play for placement maybe he should start sooner than 14 hours out instead of trying to bank on easy mode climbing with 5* roster in an easy slice and either in scl 6/7, or attempting to snipe 8.

PvP is what it is. There's a million complaint threads about it and the mantra around these parts boils down to "deal with it". Not sure why he's looking for exception here.

fight4thedream

Mr_Sinister wrote:

acescracked wrote:

Mr_Sinister wrote:

So it needs a rebalance for you to find high value, easy victory matches....ok

Whoa, you just completely missed the whole point. Not what Fight is remotely asking for.

He wants to play for placement. There is a player with 1229 points in 2nd place in a bracket he is in. This is slice 5 where scores are not that high. The game's MMR will not let him q that player.

Should there be a point threshold where everyone can be q'd by everyone?

No.

And he clearly stated in his post he was trying to q that player, so i don't see how I missed the point. The player was not shielded, FightmasterMPQ feels he should be able to q him despite the fact he's hundreds of levels higher and an entire tier above that player. He wanted to club a seal for high points for easy t5 and is whining it didn't happen. Too bad. If he wants to play for placement maybe he should start sooner than 14 hours out instead of trying to bank on easy mode climbing with 5* roster in an easy slice and either in scl 6/7, or attempting to snipe 8.

PvP is what it is. There's a million complaint threads about it and the mantra around these parts boils down to "deal with it". Not sure why he's looking for exception here.

To widen the picture a bit, I've actually encountered similar issues with MMR trying to Q rosters a lot stronger than mine whilst hunting. While I admit nowadays I will hit just about anyone if the points are there, I particularly enjoy taking on stronger teams as it adds to the fun.

If memory serves correct, there are a few factors that determine a player's ability to Q rosters above or below their tier:

1. The strength of your opponent roster relative to yours. The closer your rosters match in strength the easier it is to Q them.
2. Your current point total. For some reason, MMR will happily give you juicy Qs from on high when a player first starts climbing but things get wonky around the 600-900 area. (I assume a big part of this is due to shielding and hopping and only those out floating or climbing remain available during a climb)
3. But as many have already noted, once you break a certain point threshold the range of rosters you are able to Q expands.
4. However, after breaking this threshold, if there are enough players out (apparently the magic number is 6?) with high enough points and similar in roster strength to yours, MMR will still give you their Qs in lieu of a roster that is significantly higher or lower than your own.
5. As far as I am aware, neither Shield Rank nor the CL chosen by your or your opponent have an affect on your MMR. (But who knows?)

So in the event you wish to Q someone clearly lower or higher than you in roster strength, two conditions must be met:
a. You break the MMR barrier (what is it at now? 1000?)
b. There not be a significant number of players (6?) of similar roster strength worth decent points out while you attempt to Q your target.

If I must weigh in on whether said system is "fair" or not, I would have to say I agree with the OP since I believe PVP to be a competition and such a system clearly influences the outcomes of bracket rank. Plus I would like to pew pew the Goliaths that like to float high instead of double and/or triple people trying to climb. However, I can understand why these MMR parameters are set in this way as to prevent the big fish from making the PVP experience less enjoyable for the little fish but obviously it is not a perfect science. Anywhoo, these are just my

Fightmastermpq

Mr_Sinister wrote:

acescracked wrote:

Mr_Sinister wrote:

So it needs a rebalance for you to find high value, easy victory matches....ok

Whoa, you just completely missed the whole point. Not what Fight is remotely asking for.

He wants to play for placement. There is a player with 1229 points in 2nd place in a bracket he is in. This is slice 5 where scores are not that high. The game's MMR will not let him q that player.

Should there be a point threshold where everyone can be q'd by everyone?

No.

And he clearly stated in his post he was trying to q that player, so i don't see how I missed the point. The player was not shielded, FightmasterMPQ feels he should be able to q him despite the fact he's hundreds of levels higher and an entire tier above that player.

You are so far off base it isn't even funny. I clearly stated that I spent tons of ISO skipping and THEN went to check his roster.....actually expecting to see a first page filled with 500+ toons, only to then discover that I was searching for a seal. I rarely seek out seals as I have no problem taking down 500s these days, and it doesn't matter what tier we are on since we are competing for the same rewards.

Mr_Sinister wrote:

He wanted to club a seal for high points for easy t5 and is whining it didn't happen. Too bad. If he wants to play for placement maybe he should start sooner than 14 hours out instead of trying to bank on easy mode climbing with 5* roster in an easy slice and either in scl 6/7, or attempting to snipe 8.

PvP is what it is. There's a million complaint threads about it and the mantra around these parts boils down to "deal with it". Not sure why he's looking for exception here.

I climbed early to hit my 1200 but didn't want to waste any HP on shields for 2 days so I dropped back down. At 14h out I decided to start climbing again for placement when this happened, and it struck me as being imbalanced. I found some other targets, kept climbing, and ended up taking 1st in CL8, so I'm not even whining - just pointing out how broken 5* MMR can be at times.

Also, we would LOVE for you to come to S5 and see how easy it really is here.

Evilgenius_9

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Mr_Sinister wrote:

acescracked wrote:

Mr_Sinister wrote:

So it needs a rebalance for you to find high value, easy victory matches....ok

Whoa, you just completely missed the whole point. Not what Fight is remotely asking for.

He wants to play for placement. There is a player with 1229 points in 2nd place in a bracket he is in. This is slice 5 where scores are not that high. The game's MMR will not let him q that player.

Should there be a point threshold where everyone can be q'd by everyone?

No.

And he clearly stated in his post he was trying to q that player, so i don't see how I missed the point. The player was not shielded, FightmasterMPQ feels he should be able to q him despite the fact he's hundreds of levels higher and an entire tier above that player.

You are so far off base it isn't even funny. I clearly stated that I spent tons of ISO skipping and THEN went to check his roster.....actually expecting to see a first page filled with 500+ toons, only to then discover that I was searching for a seal. I rarely seek out seals as I have no problem taking down 500s these days, and it doesn't matter what tier we are on since we are competing for the same rewards.

Mr_Sinister wrote:

He wanted to club a seal for high points for easy t5 and is whining it didn't happen. Too bad. If he wants to play for placement maybe he should start sooner than 14 hours out instead of trying to bank on easy mode climbing with 5* roster in an easy slice and either in scl 6/7, or attempting to snipe 8.

PvP is what it is. There's a million complaint threads about it and the mantra around these parts boils down to "deal with it". Not sure why he's looking for exception here.

I climbed early to hit my 1200 but didn't want to waste any HP on shields for 2 days so I dropped back down. At 14h out I decided to start climbing again for placement when this happened, and it struck me as being imbalanced. I found some other targets, kept climbing, and ended up taking 1st in CL8, so I'm not even whining - just pointing out how broken 5* MMR can be at times.

Also, we would LOVE for you to come to S5 and see how easy it really is here.

And yet your suggested fix is not to add scl 9 and 10 already and split the levels up, it's to change the broken system to let you beat up on somebody who has little chance of beating you back in return. Still sounds very bully-ish.