Grim Flayer

Steeme

New mythics available for purchase: Gisa and Geralf and Grim Flayer

I typically look at a card and try and figure out if I could use it. No point buying anything if it won't be used.

I can easily get some use out of Gisa and Geralf, no problems with that card.

But what about Grim Flayer? Black/Green, with a Delirium trigger and off-color changing ability. I can see putting him in a Sarkhan deck, as the off-color changing would be beneficial for mana gains as well as delirium, but.. what does he combo with? The +2/+2 on its own is kinda meh, since he only starts out with 2/2, so it would take a long time for him to get pumped on his own. He's a Human Warrior, so maybe get Sigarda down to give him hexproof and actually have him stick around long enough to be useful (only in a Sorin deck though). Combo with other delirium.. like what, Inexorable Blob?

I understand that he has some complexities that push him into the Mythic status, but I honestly can't see him surviving to really activate those abilities. I mean, he actually has to damage the other planeswalker to trigger the color-change, and starting out at 2/2 he can't even push through a weak defender if given a haunted cloak. Combining him with Olivia? Well, if you're going to go that far, you might as well just combo Olivia with something more powerful.

Thoughts?

For reference:

Alatortilla

I think everyone is racking their minds over the same thing. Maybe mix him with soul swallower? His ability does allow him to possibly keep triggering delirium while potentially stealing off color matches from the enemy

fox1342

Dilerium = don't play. Most pointless mechanic ever.

speakupaskanswer

Soul Swallower can be really powerful once Delirium gets going. Delirium is swingy but can be really good. There are definitely worse mechanics but just with any mechanic, just like in Paper MtG, you can almost get anything to be powerful if you know how (and have the right cards).

[Deleted User]

I thought the same when I saw Grim Flayer this morning. Definitely doesn't seem worth £27.99, golly.

ForcexOfxWill

The problem with delirium and gems in general is that
You Never Get The Colors You Need.
How many times do you get wonderful cascades per game
Let alone just some 3 or 4 gems matched of your PW's color?
Same goes for if there is a color you don't need on the board because of delirium,
You're gonna get just enough for it not too trigger.
Maybe that's just me and my luck,


But I doubt it.

madwren

Definitely not worth the money, but at least it shows a potentially effective delirium design, in that it triggers off multiple colors and helps facilitate its own delirium. Compare to Deathcap Cultivator, for example, which works against itself. I wouldn't mind playing around with Flayer if I pull it from a pack.

jimilinho_

madwren wrote:

Definitely not worth the money, but at least it shows a potentially effective delirium design, in that it triggers off multiple colors and helps facilitate its own delirium. Compare to Deathcap Cultivator, for example, which works against itself. I wouldn't mind playing around with Flayer if I pull it from a pack.

Exactly my thoughts, should've been a reward rare, or a packable card at least. Its ok, but at the end of the day its an 11 mana 2/2 that doesn't impact the board when played. It's mechanic is a nice idea for future cards too.

(At least it's better than Mirrorwing Dragon)

Morphis

It's bad but not that bad.
11 mana is not a lot. I think if you get one delirium proc and one gem match cause of gem change you can call it even.

Of course if you start comparing to good cards it's total garbage.
This has to do more with those cards being op IMO than this card being underpowered.

Tilikum

I wished Delirium worked like this. (or I should say SOI gem conversion.)

Stone Quarry

Grim Flayer

Maybe it would be too powerful then. But I would totally buy him and make a Garruk Delirium deck. Not sure how good it would be but it looks like it would be way fun.

Steeme

I agree with all of you. I don't have Soul Swallower, but even if I did, that means I would have to run him in a Green deck. Gonna pass on this card. I don't like the color-change on damage mechanic because he becomes dead weight in any tough match.

buscemi

Delirium black or green has a double chance to proc. Not that's worth it for a creature that starts small and just gets big tho.

Corn_Noodles

Alatortilla wrote:

I think everyone is racking their minds over the same thing.

Grim Flayer is very Mindwracking.

Tilikum

I didn't realize he can double proc so I guess I wish he looked more like this:


Also, I wanna go on a quick rant about Gisa and Geralf. I would totally buy that card if it destroyed the first 4 zombies in your library, not just creatures. Let's say, hypotheticaly, we live in a world where Olivia isn't absolutely broken (her ability only lasts until the end of your turn and she has natural flight or her ability only works on vampires) and you didn't have to shoe horn her into every black deck you make now until the end of time... I would roll with Gisa and Geralf and a bunch of other zombies and it would be a fun zombie deck. The way the card is set up now, knowing my luck, it would just bury 3 copies of Olivia and 1 copy of itself, and not do anything the next turn. I know the devs have came out and said they play this game and stuff but cards that completely contradict their own ability and end up working against themselves are mind boggling to me.

madwren

Tilikum wrote:

I would roll with Gisa and Geralf and a bunch of other zombies and it would be a fun zombie deck. The way the card is set up now, knowing my luck, it would just bury 3 copies of Olivia and 1 copy of itself, and not do anything the next turn. I know the devs have came out and said they play this game and stuff but cards that completely contradict their own ability and end up working against themselves are mind boggling to me.

I think there's been a marked trend in both planeswalkers and cards to focus them towards specific tribal decks. I'm not sure this is a terrible thing. Olivia being an auto-include in every deck isn't necessarily healthy--and this is from someone that includes Olivia in every deck.

G&G was a card created to facilitate zombie recursion in paper, and they adequately replicated that ability here. It doesn't make it a bad card or a design decision. It does, however, make me not want to spend money on it, because of its limited scope.

I'd argue, however, it's better to have exclusive/purchaseable mythics with limited scope than it is to have purchaseable mythics be bombs like Olivia or Ulrich that fit everywhere and dominate the design space.

Steeme

madwren wrote:

Tilikum wrote:

I would roll with Gisa and Geralf and a bunch of other zombies and it would be a fun zombie deck. The way the card is set up now, knowing my luck, it would just bury 3 copies of Olivia and 1 copy of itself, and not do anything the next turn. I know the devs have came out and said they play this game and stuff but cards that completely contradict their own ability and end up working against themselves are mind boggling to me.

I think there's been a marked trend in both planeswalkers and cards to focus them towards specific tribal decks. I'm not sure this is a terrible thing. Olivia being an auto-include in every deck isn't necessarily healthy--and this is from someone that includes Olivia in every deck.

G&G was a card created to facilitate zombie recursion in paper, and they adequately replicated that ability here. It doesn't make it a bad card or a design decision. It does, however, make me not want to spend money on it, because of its limited scope.

I'd argue, however, it's better to have exclusive/purchaseable mythics with limited scope than it is to have purchaseable mythics be bombs like Olivia or Ulrich that fit everywhere and dominate the design space.

I purchased Gisa and Geralf, and whipped up some Liliana deck. It is a VERY POWERFUL card.

It is one of those cards that has a sign on it telling your opponent "Remove me now or you will be griefed to the high heavens"

Sample test deck:

Support:
Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
Drownyard Temple
Graf Harvest
Oath of Liliana

Spell:
Behold the Beyond (not necessary)
To the Slaughter
From Under the Floorboards
Ever After (dying to use this card)

Creature:
Diregraf Colossus
Gisa and Geralf


I was running with Noosegraf Mob and Prized Amalgam, but there was just too much stuff to fit on the playing field. If you're unlucky, G&G destroy the other 3 copies of itself but at least you get one Colossus to come back the next turn. Ever After is there for more recursion. You can use Liliana's discard mechanic to throw more stuff out. You can use Liliana's Graveyard ability to pull Gisa and Geralf out of the graveyard as well for more recursion.

Lots of combos and possibilities. Going to run this for a while to master the cards. It definitely could be more optimized but 1) It doesn't have Olivia in it and 2) It's good practice to learn the flow of combat cycling through the graveyard (ie. paying more attention to what it's in your deck vs. what's in the graveyard).

Tilikum

madwren wrote:

I'd argue, however, it's better to have exclusive/purchaseable mythics with limited scope than it is to have purchaseable mythics be bombs like Olivia or Ulrich that fit everywhere and dominate the design space.

Totally agree.

Abenjes

it could be a lot worse...

im happy that they'll happily offer up a sub par mythic like Mirror wing dragon which I suspect nobody brought but something like deploy the gatewatch or Tyrant of Valakut were available from release and people would have paid for those.
when all the powerful cards are only available for purchase will be when I walk.

Morphis

Abenjes wrote:

it could be a lot worse...

im happy that they'll happily offer up a sub par mythic like Mirror wing dragon which I suspect nobody brought but something like deploy the gatewatch or Tyrant of Valakut were available from release and people would have paid for those.
when all the powerful cards are only available for purchase will be when I walk.

Tyrant is not that powerful.
Deploy is.

Anyways I think they are adjusting their strategy to get a little more greedy without us noticing on each set release.
I expect the next exclusive "average" strength to get Higher.
Until the game is so unbalanced it will be unplayable.

Ohboy

Morphis wrote:

Abenjes wrote:

it could be a lot worse...

im happy that they'll happily offer up a sub par mythic like Mirror wing dragon which I suspect nobody brought but something like deploy the gatewatch or Tyrant of Valakut were available from release and people would have paid for those.
when all the powerful cards are only available for purchase will be when I walk.

Tyrant is not that powerful.
Deploy is.

Anyways I think they are adjusting their strategy to get a little more greedy without us noticing on each set release.
I expect the next exclusive "average" strength to get Higher.
Until the game is so unbalanced it will be unplayable.

Tyrant was very much top tier during its own release.

blacklotus

Ohboy wrote:

Morphis wrote:

Abenjes wrote:

it could be a lot worse...

im happy that they'll happily offer up a sub par mythic like Mirror wing dragon which I suspect nobody brought but something like deploy the gatewatch or Tyrant of Valakut were available from release and people would have paid for those.
when all the powerful cards are only available for purchase will be when I walk.

Tyrant is not that powerful.
Deploy is.

Anyways I think they are adjusting their strategy to get a little more greedy without us noticing on each set release.
I expect the next exclusive "average" strength to get Higher.
Until the game is so unbalanced it will be unplayable.

Tyrant was very much top tier during its own release.

agree with this. tyrant was 9/6 upon release. and most TOP tier critters are also on x/6. even Gaea's Revenge was only 9/6.

the creep came about the same time the mythic Angels like Sigarda and Avacyn were released. Every fatty has to be scaled upwards to x/8.