Proposed PVE timer reworking

sinnerjfl

It's been a few months since the new PVE timer has been implemented and as predicted, playing the end of a sub
then have to do 4 more clears right after for an optimal score is not really fun or healthy quite frankly.

It's a chunk of 4 hours of time dedicated to MPQ in a row which is way too much.

Here's an idea for the PVE timer. Nodes would not start regenerating points until X amount of hours has passed
(6 - 8 hours would be nice) from the moment the sub opens. This would allow people to at least take a tinykitty break
if they wanted to and keep their optimal score as long as they did it within that timeframe. As long as you did your 4
clears before the pre-set time, you'd get the most points possible to renegerate.

Doesnt that sound better to most people? You can still play "whenever you want" *cough cough* and do it all
in that big chunk like now or you could spread your MPQ time a little.

And I do not think this would create that much "clumping" at the top with everyone with the same score, well I hope
it would not because it's the only flaw I can think of.

Thoughts?

Fightmastermpq

The 24h refresh is much better for me. It's rare that I have free time every 8 hours throughout an entire event to play competitively, but I can sit down for 2-3 hours most nights and be competitive when I want to.

Your proposal would be even more emphasis on speed in the final grind than there already is. "Play when you want" is not meant for hyper-competitive T10 players, it's meant for the other 98% of the playerbase.

carrion_pigeons

Here's the way to get everyone to be happy: keep everything exactly the way it is, including rewards, but show a bunch of fictional accounts on the leaderboard instead of real ones, and put each person in first place at the end, no matter how they actually did.

Suddenly no one is failing to achieve all their goals, so no one will have any reason to want a different design.

I feel like I need to re-examine my time-commitments all of a sudden.

sinnerjfl

Fightmastermpq wrote:

The 24h refresh is much better for me. It's rare that I have free time every 8 hours throughout an entire event to play competitively, but I can sit down for 2-3 hours most nights and be competitive when I want to.

Your proposal would be even more emphasis on speed in the final grind than there already is. "Play when you want" is not meant for hyper-competitive T10 players, it's meant for the other 98% of the playerbase.

Read the proposition again, it would change nothing for you then, just allow others to space out their playtime.
All it does it make it fairer for more people, its the current system that's rewarding a minority willing to grind for 4 hours straight.

And quite frankly, why are those people getting an advantage exactly? Im doing the exact same clears.

Same effort, different rewards, why?

irwando

sinnerjfl wrote:

Thoughts?

Does not solve the fundamental problem that PvE is competitive and relies on razer thin timing margins.

The only real solution is to get rid of competitive PvE and leave it in PvP (you know, the part of the game actually named for players competing with each other). SCL's w/ 4* progression are a good start. Now just kill placement awards entirely.

sinnerjfl

irwando wrote:

sinnerjfl wrote:

Thoughts?

Does not solve the fundamental problem that PvE is competitive and relies on razer thin timing margins.

The only real solution is to get rid of competitive PvE and leave it in PvP (you know, the part of the game actually named for players competing with each other). SCL's w/ 4* progression are a good start. Now just kill placement awards entirely.

They wont remove placement rewards EVER, forget it, its pretty clear by now.

HxiiiK

sinnerjfl wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Read the proposition again, it would change nothing for you then, just allow others to space out their playtime.
All it does it make it fairer for more people, its the current system that's rewarding a minority willing to grind for 4 hours straight.

And quite frankly, why are those people getting an advantage exactly? Im doing the exact same clears.

Same effort, different rewards, why?

Personally speaking, I pick slice 2 all the time, as it ends 12am for me (except when there's that stupid daylight savings then it's 1am ) so I can sit down and do my end sub grind and the early clears. If it were to change to 8 hours, I would be sleeping then and the change will not be advantageous for me as I would still do my clears and head off to bed. As a matter of fact, it opens up to more competitiveness due to the leeway given to many more other players who do have the time to do clears within that 8 hours, rendering my efforts rather wasted. This is due to any other given time, I will not be able to sit peacefully and do the end sub grind, which is why I am pretty much forced to pick the slice I pick.

Yes, it seems rather unproductive sacrificing sleep for a mobile game, but I can't seem to let new releases go. Anyway this is on a personal level, not speaking for the majority. Just saying that some of us get the advantages because we make some sacrifices, and that what seems like it will benefit some people, may be detrimental to others. Reward is a result of hard work and this is just one of those cases.

alphabeta

sinnerjfl wrote:

irwando wrote:

sinnerjfl wrote:

Thoughts?

Does not solve the fundamental problem that PvE is competitive and relies on razer thin timing margins.

The only real solution is to get rid of competitive PvE and leave it in PvP (you know, the part of the game actually named for players competing with each other). SCL's w/ 4* progression are a good start. Now just kill placement awards entirely.

They wont remove placement rewards EVER, forget it, its pretty clear by now.

While I agree with you they won't remove placement your making the main argument against your own proposal - people who can't or won't dedicate a 4 hour block lose out vs those who can - with competitive play remaining any change that benefits some but not all won't happen - how long is fair - 4 hours, 6 hours, 8 hours?

You can play whenever you want and not be competitive or you can play in a block and be competitive - making that block dependant upon some sort of arbitrary timer just lessens the competitive element and they've shown no inclination to be interested in anything less than full competitive play.

Then self interest kicks in - I can clear when I want to straight away so its not in my interest to vote for the timer change because I'll rank higher than you for as long as I can stand the self abuse of playing PVE competitively (which is pretty much new release only for me)

sinnerjfl

HxiiiK wrote:

Yes, it seems rather unproductive sacrificing sleep for a mobile game, but I can't seem to let new releases go. Anyway this is on a personal level, not speaking for the majority. Just saying that some of us get the advantages because we make some sacrifices, and that what seems like it will benefit some people, may be detrimental to others. Reward is a result of hard work and this is just one of those cases.

Hard work? You do the exact same number of clears as anyone else but since the system favours you its fantastic.

*SIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH*

sinnerjfl

alphabeta wrote:

While I agree with you they won't remove placement your making the main argument against your own proposal - people who can't or won't dedicate a 4 hour block lose out vs those who can - with competitive play remaining any change that benefits some but not all won't happen - how long is fair - 4 hours, 6 hours, 8 hours?

You can play whenever you want and not be competitive or you can play in a block and be competitive - making that block dependant upon some sort of arbitrary timer just lessens the competitive element and they've shown no inclination to be interested in anything less than full competitive play.

Putting aside self-interest and looking at it objectively, does it feel reasonnable of a game to ask for 4 hours of your free time in a row?

Do you think most people have that block of time available to them?

I think both answers are no.

HxiiiK

sinnerjfl wrote:

Hard work? You do the exact same number of clears as anyone else but since the system favours you its fantastic.

*SIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH*

I don't understand why you say the system *favours* me. The point I was trying to make was that the system doesn't "favour" anyone, and that those who placed better made sacrifices to clear early and earned it. But okay, I got carried away and got to the 'hard work' part and that was my bad.

alphabeta

sinnerjfl wrote:

alphabeta wrote:

While I agree with you they won't remove placement your making the main argument against your own proposal - people who can't or won't dedicate a 4 hour block lose out vs those who can - with competitive play remaining any change that benefits some but not all won't happen - how long is fair - 4 hours, 6 hours, 8 hours?

You can play whenever you want and not be competitive or you can play in a block and be competitive - making that block dependant upon some sort of arbitrary timer just lessens the competitive element and they've shown no inclination to be interested in anything less than full competitive play.

Putting aside self-interest and looking at it objectively, does it feel reasonnable of a game to ask for 4 hours of your free time in a row?

Do you think most people have that block of time available to them?

I think both answers are no.

Putting aside self interest isn't how the world works though.

A significant time investment in blocks has always pervaded the game - remember 12 hour subs, remember parallel subs - even the previous system to this required a c 3 hour investment of time - it was just to grind before the subs end rather than at the beginning and then on regular 8 hour intervals between it.

None of the tests run on new formats would have achieved what you are aiming for so I think its pretty safe to assume for the foreseeable future its not going to happen therefore if you think the requirement for competitive placement isn't suitable for you your free to not play I suppose.

PS - your alternative doesn't eliminate time as a variable it merely changes its impact - if everyone has a longer window to do there initial clears the differentiating factor on placement become speed of grind - those who can grind quickest and therefore start grind latest will win - which will massively favour soft cappers which is a stated group the developers are trying to hurt not help. You are never going to convince me that a system favouring soft cappers is preferable to what we have today because I'm not a soft capper.

The only true thing that will achieve what you are calling for is where the game should go - progressive only PVE - but that won't happen seemingly.

DFiPL

sinnerjfl wrote:

Putting aside self-interest and looking at it objectively, does it feel reasonnable of a game to ask for 4 hours of your free time in a row?

please don't ask me about my mass effect or fallout play habits this won't end well

GurlBYE

Honestly 3 clears would be a huge QOL improvement for progression players.

Especially because some of us want progression because its the only definite way to build your roster in this game. (like making me a clear a 4 star node 4 times with 1 cover for the second cover isn't interesting. It just burns me out)

Heartburn

GurlBYE wrote:

Honestly 3 clears would be a huge QOL improvement for progression players.

Especially because some of us want progression because its the only definite way to build your roster in this game. (like making me a clear a 4 star node 4 times with 1 cover for the second cover isn't interesting. It just burns me out)

i wouldn't mind if they took off 1 more grind to empty out a partially full nodes as well. if they want to fight for placement they can grind those 1 point nodes all day

broll

I didn't vote. I agree that having to play at very ristrictive 3-4 hours windows every 24 sucks. I've completely given up on PVE placement because this time based system is a mess and not worth the effort.

I agree that something should change, but I don't care for this idea. It's still based on timing and it still would not work on my schedule.

The only fixes I see are:
1. Remove placement from PVE all together. It doesn't make sense anyway.
2. Leave placement and timer as is, but remove time slices. When you start you have 24-48 hours to complete the sub, but you start it at your schedule. You would be competing against other players close but not necissaeily in your exact same time window.

broll

sinnerjfl wrote:

Putting aside self-interest and looking at it objectively, does it feel reasonnable of a game to ask for 4 hours of your free time in a row?

A console or desktop game with a story and/or realtime PvP. Yes

A reptetive smartphone puzzle game. No

broll

HxiiiK wrote:

sinnerjfl wrote:

Hard work? You do the exact same number of clears as anyone else but since the system favours you its fantastic.

*SIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH*

I don't understand why you say the system *favours* me. The point I was trying to make was that the system doesn't "favour" anyone, and that those who placed better made sacrifices to clear early and earned it. But okay, I got carried away and got to the 'hard work' part and that was my bad.

It favors people who have the 4 hours of free time in one of the 5 windows. There are people who have that free time if it were spread out all day or if it was at a different time who screwed by this system.

kobu

This would relieve some pain for some people. I'd rather not have half-measures implemented and have them call it a day.

The real solutions that need to be implemented are:

1) Move scoring into the matches. Time scoring within the matches would be mathematically the same and get us off the external timer. It would be true "play when you want". Alternatively, the timer could be replaced with point scoring based on fewest tile matches. It would amount to basically the same thing...more optimal play equals both fewer matches and less time taken.

2) Reduce the the number of clears across the board. 4x9 is a hell of a lot more reasonable than 6x9. And that's still 36 matches to do in a day. Plus the one time and loaner nodes. Do your clears, get your prizes and scores, and then they are locked out. No more of this grind to zero nonsense. There's still plenty of deviation to spare for placement rewards.

Crnch73

I believe the message the OP is trying to send is not being heard. In my opinion, they mean this:

you can play all nodes once after the event opens. Then, the nodes will not regen points for a small window of time. That way, once you do the end-grind of a sub, you aren't starting the next sub immediately afterwards. This allows a player to break up the hours spent daily on this game. It would require the sub start/end times to be changed, because some people plan their sleep patterns around this. For example, I would not want to pick the 11pm slice any more, because then the nodes would start to regen points while I was asleep. However, I think this idea could be an ok change, at least to try?

It would change the overall way we play, but it shouldn't change the scoring or the "regulars" at the top, IMO. I only play super-competitive PVE during release events, and I can admit it was not a lot of fun to start the next sub after trying to squeak out more points from the last one.

Bowgentle

Crnch73 wrote:

I believe the message the OP is trying to send is not being heard. In my opinion, they mean this:

you can play all nodes once after the event opens. Then, the nodes will not regen points for a small window of time. That way, once you do the end-grind of a sub, you aren't starting the next sub immediately afterwards. This allows a player to break up the hours spent daily on this game. It would require the sub start/end times to be changed, because some people plan their sleep patterns around this. For example, I would not want to pick the 11pm slice any more, because then the nodes would start to regen points while I was asleep. However, I think this idea could be an ok change, at least to try?

It would change the overall way we play, but it shouldn't change the scoring or the "regulars" at the top, IMO. I only play super-competitive PVE during release events, and I can admit it was not a lot of fun to start the next sub after trying to squeak out more points from the last one.

Lol.
You're proposing the system we had two years ago.
2.5 hrs refresh timers on the nodes.
I don't think anyone wants to go back to that insanity that lasted for way too long.