Enters Play Triggers and Control issues

JanksMcJank

These issues have been around a while, so they're not new.

There are 4 mechanics I can think of that trigger these events:

• Summon: Creature enters play from paying mana, or a card (such as Hangarback Walker) indicates a token is "summoned"
• Take Control: Act of Treason, Willbreaker, Welcome to the Fold, Turn Against, Malevolent Whispers, etc
• Regaining Control: Take Control ends and control returns to owner
• Reinforce: Existing creature has another added to it. Summoning, Evolutionary Leap "Reinforces" a creature.
• Disabled: More of a modifier, but it seems to play into modifying if a trigger will happen or not. Also it seems like there is a difference between "summoning sickness" disabled, and disabled happening from another card effect like a creature ability, support or spell.

• Enters the Battlefield (ETB): this is by far the most common trigger. This implies that the ability will happen when creature is not on the battle field, then enters play on the battlefield. This is actually really inconsistent.
  • Always triggers when summoning.
  • Taking Control/Regaining Control. Neither are ETB. Still this will trigger with some on Taking Control, with others on Regaining Control and some neither. I don't think I've ever seen an ability trigger for both Taking & Regaining.
  • Reinforcing is very hit or miss with ETB. Seems very arbitrary how some creatures trigger and others don't. If reinforcing is seen more as improving the existing creature, then no ETB effect should be triggered. It should just give them another +x/+x and trigger a "reinforced" effect
  • Disabled: Seems like two cases with disable:
    • Creature is disabled and you summon another. My Priest of the Blood Rite was disabled and I summoned another. ETB effect (summon 5/5 demon) didn't happen. In other cases, I've seen ETB work while a creature is disabled.
    • A Creature/Support effect targets "first creature opponent controls". This happens when you have no creatures and summon one or you have no defenders and summon a defender who jumps to "first slot". Sometimes a creature will trigger their ability first, sometimes they'll land as disabled and not trigger.
• Reinforced: This isn't triggered when control changes or ETB, but only when a creature is actually reinforced. Super rare. I can only think of Timberpack Wolf.
• Statement (no condition given):
  • Sigarda, Heron’s Grace: Just grants each human you control hexproof. This didn't remove hexproof from humans when I controlled her. I didn't have any humans in control to see if I would have gotten the hexproof.
  • Priest of the Blood Rite has a trap. Seems to happen on first turn after they are summoned (not the first turn). When they're controlled away from you, I don't think the trap goes away, but I believe both destroying and disabling them remove the trap immediately.

So it really seems like there needs to just be clarification of what "gaining control", "regaining control" & "Reinforcing" are supposed to count as.

If for some reason it's a balance thing that some ETB effects are triggered in different ways, maybe we need an adjustment to that text.

"When this creature changes control" would imply that an effect should happen when you summon, take or regain control.

Reinforced should be clarified if it's supposed to trigger ETB effects and make sure it does as consistently as ETB works.

This game is very much about strategy. It's hard to plan that strategy when the cards aren't consistent in doing what they say they will. It's also frustrating that when I have a control deck, I have to memorize which creatures I can control neutrally, which will help me with their effects and which will screw me over when they're returned to the owner.

alextfish

Reinforcing:
Note that there are two kinds of "reinforce". When you summon a creature (either with mana from hand, or with reanimation etc), and you already have that creature on your side, you "reinforce-A" it. "Reinforce-A" does trigger ETB abilities, unless the pre-existing creature is disabled. If the pre-existing creature is disabled then "reinforce-A" will not trigger ETB abilities.

"Reinforce-B" is what happens when a card or effect directly "reinforces" a creature. This includes Nahiri, Evolutionary Leap, Altered Ego, and Mirrorpool. "Reinforce-B" never triggers ETB abilities. This is deliberately stated as a design decision by the devs. Fortunately, it's easy to tell the difference: if a card says "reinforce" it's reinforce-B, otherwise it's reinforce-A.

There's a cycle of common creatures in Origins that care about being reinforced: Timberpack Wolf, Faerie Miscreant and Cleric of the Forward Order. I have no idea whether they trigger from Nahiri / Evolutionary Leap's "reinforce-B".

Trap gems:
All trap gems and activation gems from creatures and supports are created during your upkeep. So Priest of the Blood Rite works just like the trap gems from Shadows of the Past, Tainted Remedy and Kozilek, as well as like the activation gems from Magnifying Glass, Pyromancer's Goggles, Evolutionary Leap etc etc etc. Disabling the creature does immediately cancel all traps and activations (as does killing or bouncing the creature).
I believe you're right that stealing control, either temporarily or permanently, does not cancel the traps and activations. In fact, I think it's possible that the activations still sortof count as controlled by the creature's original controller. So if you steal a Priest of the Blood Rite, it's quite possible that it'll reveal to you where the trap gems are, but they'll still damage the original controller.

Muche

More examples of nuances of Disabled + ETB:

I have Authority of the Consuls on the battlefield, the opponent casts Conclave Naturalists. Naturalists' ETB ability triggers, destroying Authority, Authority doesn't trigger, Naturalists remain enabled.

The opponent has Suppression Bonds. I cast Volcanic Rambler (onto empty battlefield). Rambler gets disabled before its ETB ability triggers.

wereotter

Muche wrote:

More examples of nuances of Disabled + ETB:

I have Authority of the Consuls on the battlefield, the opponent casts Conclave Naturalists. Naturalists' ETB ability triggers, destroying Authority, Authority doesn't trigger, Naturalists remain enabled.

The opponent has Suppression Bonds. I cast Volcanic Rambler (onto empty battlefield). Rambler gets disabled before its ETB ability triggers.

It's the difference of how the cards are worded. Authority of the Consuls has to see the creature enter in order to disable it, so currently an ETB effect would trigger. Suppression Bonds creates a disabled state for the first creature so a creature entering in that spot is automatically disabled and doesn't get an ETB.

It's counter intuitive for those of us who play paper magic since Puzzle Quest doesn't use the stack well if at all.

hawkyh1

Muche wrote:

More examples of nuances of Disabled + ETB:

I have Authority of the Consuls on the battlefield, the opponent casts Conclave Naturalists. Naturalists' ETB ability triggers, destroying Authority, Authority doesn't trigger, Naturalists remain enabled.

The opponent has Suppression Bonds. I cast Volcanic Rambler (onto empty battlefield). Rambler gets disabled before its ETB ability triggers.

this is very different as it's a balancing issue. the on entering the
battlefield is triggered for both cards: authority and naturalists at
the same time. both etb is triggered, it's just that naturalist etb
is to knock out a support. suppression bonds disabled is in place
before rambler enters the battlefield. rambler never gets a chance
to trigger it's etb as it's already disabled upon entry.

HH

Morphis

Answer to most of these issues are in my guide in signature.

To be added that council disable is different than claustrophobia disable.

For istance claustrophobia will prevent an Olivia from triggeringon herself if it's the first creature you play.
Council instead will allow the effect to trigger then will disable after.

If a creature is already disabled casting another copy will not trigger etb as stated(it's also in the guide as far as I remember).

blacklotus

I don't see any discrepancy between council or suppression/claustrophobia.

The latter disables the first slot of the battlefield. Council doesn't disable any slot at all. Council only disables the critter after it has entered the battlefield.

wereotter

blacklotus wrote:

I don't see any discrepancy between council or suppression/claustrophobia.

The latter disables the first slot of the battlefield. Council doesn't disable any slot at all. Council only disables the critter after it has entered the battlefield.

It's not. But I would think the point if disabling it till the end of your turn is hardly that big a thing. It really just buys you a turn if your opponent summons a creature with defender or reach. It should be able to shut down ETB effects. That would make the card more viable.

On that note, do we know if Thalia behaves the same way? I'd feel much less bad about losing her if she doesn't shut down ETB effects.

Szamsziel

Difference between claustrophobia and council:
Claustrophobia - the first creature is disabled create continous state for the first opponent creature. When creature is summoned there is no moment in time it's not disabled and as so ETB does not trigger.
Consulate - is conditional. Wording "when creature enter the battlefield" - starts in when the condition is met. If creature has also ETB both actions have condition met and starts (standard example would be - if you see opponent throw granade - if opponent have the same condition both of you start throwing at the same time. Grenades are in the air so doesn't matter which land first.)

hawkyh1

wereotter wrote:

blacklotus wrote:

I don't see any discrepancy between council or suppression/claustrophobia.

The latter disables the first slot of the battlefield. Council doesn't disable any slot at all. Council only disables the critter after it has entered the battlefield.

It's not. But I would think the point if disabling it till the end of your turn is hardly that big a thing. It really just buys you a turn if your opponent summons a creature with defender or reach. It should be able to shut down ETB effects. That would make the card more viable.

On that note, do we know if Thalia behaves the same way? I'd feel much less bad about losing her if she doesn't shut down ETB effects.

also disables haste, hexproof and reinforced creatures on entry.
imo being able to disable all creatures under the sun without
triggering their etb would be overpowered. many cards are
played to make use of their etb. unlike claustrophobia etc
there's is no strategic dodge for council.

HH

octal9

blacklotus wrote:

Council only disables the critter after it has entered the battlefield.

This is correct & a very important distinction to understand.

Wording says it won't disable until the creature has fully resolved - ie, after ETB triggers. Desolation Twin will summon its token. Token resolves & gets disabled by Council. Twin itself resolves & gets disabled by Council. Drowner would summon a scion which gets disabled, then each scion after that retriggers the disable on the scion stack. Drowner itself then gets disabled once all scions are summoned.

For anybody still confused, think about how Mirrorpool resolves - it's similar here.

wereotter wrote:

On that note, do we know if Thalia behaves the same way? I'd feel much less bad about losing her if she doesn't shut down ETB effects.

Thalia's behavior is identical.