Open letter to the devs regarding coalition rewards

EDHdad

Simple solution: Give bonus ribbons for winning using fewer than X mythic/rare cards in your deck (instead of all that tedious specific creature type nonsense).

I actually like this a lot, though I'd prefer not to see any more deck building challenges until there is a way to save decks and easily swap them in and out.

The dirty little secret, though, as shteev points out, is that top 10 coalition decks only contain a small number of Mythics (1-3 is typical). Right now, it's even worse as people are scrambling to include sub-optimal cards into their decks to fill the rather bizarre secondary objectives in the current event.

If there is an event where the only cards that can be played are commons and uncommons, what will happen is this: the same people will win that event and the same teams will be in the top 10.

GrizzoMtGPQ

The amount of saltiness in this thread is unbelievable. The top 10 coalitions are blocking the front seats? You think that happened because we had first mover advantage and that if we'd just get out of the way you could ascend to the heights? Laughable.

We're not the top because we get these Mythics. What most of us get from Event rewards ends up being dupes because most of us are pushing 700+ cards. But most of us came to the coalition with 600+ cards earned the hard way, before events, before guaranteed Mythics.

We're top because for most of us this is the only game we play. We live and breathe it. We deckcraft and play test and talk about how to win. If you went toe to toe with us we'd destroy you. Don't think for a minute that you could win in Platinum with some random set of Mythics. EDHdad said it very correctly here:

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=52348&start=20

Read it and learn.

Grizzo, Extinction

paralistalon

I'm in some random 5 person coalition just so I can get all the progression rewards in the coalition exclusive events, and right now, that's fine with me, lol. There's no pressure to blow off plans with the family or fall behind on paperwork at my job for the small chance I'll get one of the mythics that don't completely suck. I have a handful of really strong decks and haven't had to join coalitions or grind out QBs to get them. If people honestly want to cast 8 werewolfs and 8 eldrazi all day, then they should get something for all that headache! If it's bragging rights, then let them have their moment. Granted, it's sometimes annoying like that guy who said he would post his decklists after the Emrakul event but then didn't and instead monologued like an evil villain until his topic was locked, lol.

jackvett

GrizzoMtGPQ wrote:

The amount of saltiness in this thread is unbelievable. The top 10 coalitions are blocking the front seats? You think that happened because we had first mover advantage and that if we'd just get out of the way you could ascend to the heights? Laughable.

We're not the top because we get these Mythics. What most of us get from Event rewards ends up being dupes because most of us are pushing 700+ cards. But most of us came to the coalition with 600+ cards earned the hard way, before events, before guaranteed Mythics.

We're top because for most of us this is the only game we play. We live and breathe it. We deckcraft and play test and talk about how to win. If you went toe to toe with us we'd destroy you. Don't think for a minute that you could win in Platinum with some random set of Mythics. EDHdad said it very correctly here:

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=52348&start=20

Read it and learn.

Grizzo, Extinction

I read that thread when it was posted, and I've read it again at your request. From that thread:

Rootbreaker wrote:

I've spent no money and have 666 cards, although I'm sure I have significantly more than the average free player because I get a mythic from my Coalition each event.

Seriously, I don't get it. How can you not see the writing on the (forum) wall? If you are entering the game now, it is next to impossible to achieve the collections anyone else in the game has. Doubly so since you will not be playing in a top 10 coalition, because you don't have the good cards.

I am very impressed with your tone of voice--will you still be king of the playground when your top 10 coalitions are fighting nobody but their own members, because there's 0 casual entry into this game?

Alve wrote:

@EDHdad
In this game rich get richer pretty fast, but new players need a ton of luck to even compete in the Bronze league. I have some friends who've been playing paper MTG for years and I wanted to get them to play MTG:PQwith me, but as it is, I'd never recommend this game to anyone.

Also from that thread. Good for you whales and day-1'ers, for earning your cards the hard way. Newer players applaud you and admire you. And we are asking you to swallow your self-hatred for wasting your time and money, to pave way for a more equitable system moving forward.

Ohboy

GrizzoMtGPQ wrote:

The amount of saltiness in this thread is unbelievable. The top 10 coalitions are blocking the front seats? You think that happened because we had first mover advantage and that if we'd just get out of the way you could ascend to the heights? Laughable.

We're not the top because we get these Mythics. What most of us get from Event rewards ends up being dupes because most of us are pushing 700+ cards. But most of us came to the coalition with 600+ cards earned the hard way, before events, before guaranteed Mythics.

We're top because for most of us this is the only game we play. We live and breathe it. We deckcraft and play test and talk about how to win. If you went toe to toe with us we'd destroy you. Don't think for a minute that you could win in Platinum with some random set of Mythics. EDHdad said it very correctly here:

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=52348&start=20

Read it and learn.

Grizzo, Extinction

Seems everyone in a top 10 coalition is defensive of the very reward mechanic they are claiming don't give them a great advantage. Here's a group of magic players trying to tell me 4 counter spells in a deck isn't much of an advantage against just 1 because they might draw only lands.

I'll say it again. My point is that there is too big of an advantage for whole coalitions that win a mythic twice a week, not that you don't deserve to be there, or that every single mythic reward you get is directly usable to gain a bigger lead. The point is that the reward system is set up in a way that makes catching up harder than it should be, and in the long run will make it even harder.

In any case if the bi-weekly mythic reward is as weak and irrelevant as you're trying to make it sound, please join Yunn and I in supporting stopping the endless flow of mythics into your coffers and offer boosters instead.

You can argue all you want about already being top players, but numbers don't lie. With every round of free mythics, the number of people tied on top with perfect score increases. These are the same players who used to drop 4-5 games. And it's not just people getting used to the format either. Just look at the last pvp event. There were multiple players tied for first from the get go.

Please, tell me you've never added a mythic reward in your deck and improved your score. That's a mythic that the average player will take maybe 2 weeks to get. You're rolling the dice twice a week. He gets to roll it every other week. Who ends up with the ideal deck faster? How can people dream of being competitive?

I just want a more competitive event. If you're confident in your skill, and convinced the free mythics don't help you pull ahead, why not welcome a smaller feedback loop and compete with a bigger pool of players?

Corn_Noodles

I think a lot of this can be boiled down to there not being a way to obtain specific cards outside of the exclusive purchases. Right now, the best way to get mythics is to be in a top 10 coalition. The best way to be in a top 10 coalition is to be a high performer. The best way to be a higher performer is to have a good variety of powerful cards.

This game is very much about the rich getting richer. I'm all for a better way, but I've yet to see the developers or publisher make any movements in a better direction.

PajdaCZ

I have a job and a family.for about 10 years now, spending most of my time (gladly!). The game does not take much of that what is left of my free time.

I read here about players playing tens, hundreds of QBs every time to take a higher place. I read about players who whine about not having two mythics per week, who whine for being awaded 1k runes for free, who whine about rewards not being more rewarding for more players....

If I want to be better in the game, I buy some planeswalkers, discounted boxes, boosters, mythics when/if available and if I find it reasonable - I did not buy Arlinn for 70$ or whatever it was, it was ridiculous.

I have almost 90% win ratio in QBs (for the whole MTGPQ time, I have "only" around 800 played matches), although I do not have much playable mythics (Olivia is the best). I am very happy if I manage to score above rank 50. If I do not, I know there always be another QB that I can place higher in.

I definitely do not want to be a nolifer dedicating my whole time playing "a" game, having a good feeling I am good at it, having most cards, etc., I'd prefer having good feelings from a lot more things, not this game. Please note that I mean no offense towards the high ranked players, if it makes them feel good, it is their business.

For the players that are not there and want to be there, you always have a choice to "buy" your way there or spend your time. If the life cannot let you... well, maybe you have chosen a wrong goal to achieve.

Bottomline is that either you invest more time, more money or both to be more rewarded. End of story. Whining never helped anyone, it is your choice that makes the difference.

jackvett

PajdaCZ wrote:

I read here about [players] who whine about rewards not being more rewarding for more players....

If I want to be better in the game, I buy some planeswalkers, discounted boxes, boosters, mythics

I would prefer my competitive merit be linked to something other than my wallet. Time invested sounds great, if the rewards are equitable to the time invested. Currently, they are not.

PajdaCZ

jackvett wrote:

PajdaCZ wrote:

I read here about [players] who whine about rewards not being more rewarding for more players....

If I want to be better in the game, I buy some planeswalkers, discounted boxes, boosters, mythics

I would prefer my competitive merit be linked to something other than my wallet. Time invested sounds great, if the rewards are equitable to the time invested. Currently, they are not.

But it is like that. The more QBs you play, the higher you place.

Stormbringer0

PajdaCZ wrote:

jackvett wrote:

PajdaCZ wrote:

I read here about [players] who whine about rewards not being more rewarding for more players....

If I want to be better in the game, I buy some planeswalkers, discounted boxes, boosters, mythics

I would prefer my competitive merit be linked to something other than my wallet. Time invested sounds great, if the rewards are equitable to the time invested. Currently, they are not.

But it is like that. The more QBs you play, the higher you place.

We won't get anywhere. Most people can't afford playing for hours every day, because that is what it takes to rank in the top 10.

How about rewarding people for a good winning streak? A price for every 50 wins.

PajdaCZ

Stormbringer0 wrote:

PajdaCZ wrote:

jackvett wrote:

PajdaCZ wrote:

I read here about [players] who whine about rewards not being more rewarding for more players....

If I want to be better in the game, I buy some planeswalkers, discounted boxes, boosters, mythics

I would prefer my competitive merit be linked to something other than my wallet. Time invested sounds great, if the rewards are equitable to the time invested. Currently, they are not.

But it is like that. The more QBs you play, the higher you place.

We won't get anywhere. Most people can't afford playing for hours every day, because that is what it takes to rank in the top 10.

How about rewarding people for a good winning streak? A price for every 50 wins.

How about a similar setup as in the events? 10 strikes > runes, 20 strikes > basic booster, 30 > crystals, 40 > booster pack etc.
It could end at a point where for each other 10 wins you could get 10 crystals/booster or dunno what.
But maybe in the end it could again mostly benefit the players who have fast and powerful decks to grind. But it would definitely be better than what we have now.

Omega Red

Posting unsolicited screenshots of your decks and mythics is kinda tacky, like posting unsolicited **** pics. But getting sour grapes over someone else's e-**** is just sad.

It's a competitive game. Getting good scores and earning rewards requires an investment in time and/or money. The most hardcore players play over ten hours a day and spend hundreds of dollars in content. Seems reasonable to me that they get better rewards than me who only plays a couple of hours a day and have spent like forty dollars total since I started playing. And even at my somewhat casual approach I still outplay most of the player base who only dedicates fifteen minutes a day and no money at all and I think I deserve to get better rewards than them whether I need them or not.

So, it's all relative. No matter how big a fish you are, there will always be bigger fish. Keep working your crystals, keep opening your boosters and eventually you'll be bigger than most. Takes time but if you work for it, it'll happen.

EDHdad

Please, tell me you've never added a mythic reward in your deck and improved your score.

The 3 decks I'm running in the current event have 4 total Mythics (Nahri has 1, Ob Nixilis has 1. Kiora has 2.) Of these, only one was looted as an award for being in a top 10 coalition (Goldnight Castigator in Nahiri). I am running an Oath of Liliana in Ob Nixilis, which I did win in the last event, but this was an award which was given to anyone who maxed out their progression awards.

The same decks contain 12 commons and uncommons (Nahiri has 6, Ob Nixilis has 2, Kiora has 4). This means I am running 3 times as many commons and uncommons as Mythics, in my most competitive decks.

BTW, I am not currently in a top 10 group. I've been in several, but people come and go. Right now, I'm in a more casual group which acts as a kind of bench for one of the top 10 groups. The players there are a mixture of people who are taking a break from the highly competitive groups, people who are trying to break in to the highly competitive groups, and people who are happy to get progression awards and maybe a rare and some crystals.

aesith

Maybe D3 should reward with a Participation Ribbon? And a hi-five.

Padja does get a hi-five for his truthful posts.

Either play more, pay, or chill as a casual. The log in rewards are decent by the way.

Aside from that, get 19 active friends together and grind the S put of events to finish top 10. It is EXACTLY what the rest of us did when Jacob started the Facebook coalition group and we had to sort like 150 people into coalitions based on activity.

OR, realise there is way too much time spent trying to get top 10 and then accept a possibly great rare for a top 100 finish.

wink

In game design, there is a concept called "rubber banding", which means that the players an last place are given systemic advantages to help them catch up to the leaders. (Eg. In Mario Cart, the player in last place gets much better boosts than the player in first.) This makes the game much more fun and accessible and competitive for casual players.

I think what some people are arguing here is that this game could use some rubber-banding. That it would be good for the long term health of the game for casual players to have more fun.

Ohboy

GrizzoMtGPQ wrote:

We've been actively recruiting for Extinction for a while now. If you want to get into our coalition we have a process for that and would welcome in players that are engaged, interested, and want these Mythic rewards. We routinely have spots available to sub in for an event and sometimes permanent spots open up as well. Feel free to PM me, Yunn, KillWind, SellerSloan, or anyone else on the team if you're interested.

Grizzo, Extinction

Thanks for the offer, but you've missed the point. I don't want to join a top 10 coalition. I want more coalitions to be able to be competitive for the leader board. And with each round of mythic rewards, the chances of that ever happening is dropping.

LeafHyren

Nope no one willing to jump on board a top 10 coalition. (so far) My offer was genuine.

In fact you can have my spot. To test if you can grind it out. I'll be on stand by. Out of genuine willingness to help you, will cheer for you as I do with all of my wonderful teammates.

My point is, if you want to be in the kind of game the top 200 play there are opportunities. That is why the top 10 recruit regularly. We might be taking the best seats but everyone is there out of merit. And anyone willing to jump on that wave is welcomed, the top players are not secretly plotting to gobble up and make a wall to protect that advantage.

This is a competitive game. Coalitions make the most competitive visible, but every game will have such a group.

Tilikum

wink wrote:

In game design, there is a concept called "rubber banding", which means that the players an last place are given systemic advantages to help them catch up to the leaders. (Eg. In Mario Cart, the player in last place gets much better boosts than the player in first.) This makes the game much more fun and accessible and competitive for casual players.

I think what some people are arguing here is that this game could use some rubber-banding. That it would be good for the long term health of the game for casual players to have more fun.

I can see that, but really I just feel that this game is incredibly good even when you're not worried about leaderboads, secondary objectives, and the ever changing meta-game. They just need more rewarding content for more casual players. Something actually dedicated to them. Just getting the progression rewards for a PVP event you don't give 2 flips about is becoming mundane. I honestly don't mind these top coalitions swimming in mythics because I know they've earned it.

Page 4! WUT?!

Corn_Noodles

GrizzoMtGPQ wrote:

Recruitment Advertisement

Keep it in the Coalition forum.

Tilikum

Uh oh thread got moved...