Any chance we can have another clear knocked off Story?

Jabrony_Geoff

The Herald wrote:

We currently have 6 clears, plus priceless clears for points grinding.

4 clears is enough to get progression.

It's VERY grindy though.

Is there any chance another clear will be knocked off?

3 clears for Final progression, and point wastage to kick in.

Leave the difficulty climb to go into the fourth clear (I'm aware I'm begging for a mathematical nightmare here!).

Just kick out a filler prize from the first 3 clears.

PvE currently eats a lot of time. People in general like what it does but it's a time sink!

The system in place already let's people battle to the decimal point for placement, and this change wouldn't change that. BUT it would help people actually join in!

One less clear.

Casual players enjoying personal progression will enjoy the game more.

Competitive players have less of a grind for the fine tuning to kick in, which will help them stop burning out.

TL:DR; Please sirs, can we have some less chores to do

Did you know the Original Rocket and Groot test event only had 4 clears.
Pve is based on that but for whatever reason it was put up to seven missions then reduced to 6 because of complaints.

I would love it to return to 4 clears per node but I'll take 5 clears all day long.
Your idea is a good one.
As they say Less is more.

Mordee

I agree with the OP. I can attest to this being long. I can clear the nodes in under 2 hours on most events. Heroics can be tricky. I am usually in the top 10 of most pve, but it has become a big grind for me. Back to back clears, can take about 4 hours. It is almost a part time job! I dreaded it when it was 7 clears, so yeah, I wish it could go down a bit more.

Polares

jobob wrote:

Last night I was fighting level 453 Moonstones with 73k health. That's not a quick fight.


...Furthermore, even if it CAN be done quickly, it isn't always fun to do it as quickly as possible. I would rather try some different teams, and have a little fun

Most of the people flying through PVE are in a soft-capped sweet spot and riding Winfinite through all the hard nodes. That sounds so boring to me.

Offtopic: Man this is annoying. I am going to open a thread today talking about this. This is nuts. Scaling in 5 land is nuts, completely stupid. Best rosters are punished in PvE for having the best roster.

It is true that 4 clears is much closer to 2 - 2.5 hours, but now before you get to the final progression you have already won a 4 and 10CPs, so I don't think getting the final progression should be made easier. I think 4 clears (so you don't have to fight max difficulty ever if you don't want to) is a good place to put the final progression.

It is much much worse when we talk about new releases.

KrazyKeylime

jobob wrote:

Last night I was fighting level 453 Moonstones with 73k health. That's not a quick fight.


...Furthermore, even if it CAN be done quickly, it isn't always fun to do it as quickly as possible. I would rather try some different teams, and have a little fun

Most of the people flying through PVE are in a soft-capped sweet spot and riding Winfinite through all the hard nodes. That sounds so boring to me.

damn and i thought 14k health moonstone was bad. what is the point to get high level characters if the goal post keep moving back?

JVReal

ClydeFrog76 wrote:

JVReal wrote:

I think asking for MAX progression to be 3 clears out of 7 is asking for a lot.

Why? How long do the devs actually want us to play their game for? There's DDQ and PVP on top of that, which most people also engage in.

Why would you expect it would be appropriate to pay MAX rewards to anyone doing less than 50% of maximum clears?

Would you pay your carpenter his MAX payment for only building 3/7 of your staircase?

I have kids, and if I offered to take them to the movies if they cleaned their room, I have a level of expectation in order to give them that reward. I do not expect it to be spotless (7 clears) though it is an option and if they did that, I'd probably give them an extra treat (placement reward). No, to gain the reward of the trip to the movies I'd expect greater than a 50% improvement on the current state of their room, I'd like to see their clothes folded, put away and I can see the floor so it can get vacuumed and a load of laundry started. I don't expect them to dust their furniture, clean the trim and corners of the ceiling, clean their windows, or dust the blades of their ceiling fans. I expect a reasonable amount of work (4 of 7 clears). If they came to me and said "I'm done, lets go" and all they did was stuff all their clothes from the floor into their laundry basket and pushed everything under their bed or into the floor of their closet (3 out of 7)... that's technically 'work', but nothing different or difficult than they have normally been doing (Especially when i look in the laundry basket and the clean folded clothes I put on their beds to put away last week are stuffed in there...), I would not reward them but instead tell them to keep working.

If they Reduced the TOTAL number of clears possible to get down to 1 point, then reducing the number of clears to MAX progression would be reasonable in comparison.

My point is, 3/7 doesn't seem a reasonable amount of work for getting MAX rewards. Whether 7 clears is reasonable to sane people is a totally different subject.

broll

JVReal wrote:

ClydeFrog76 wrote:

JVReal wrote:

I think asking for MAX progression to be 3 clears out of 7 is asking for a lot.

Why? How long do the devs actually want us to play their game for? There's DDQ and PVP on top of that, which most people also engage in.

Why would you expect it would be appropriate to pay MAX rewards to anyone doing less than 50% of maximum clears?

Would you pay your carpenter his MAX payment for only building 3/7 of your staircase?

I have kids, and if I offered to take them to the movies if they cleaned their room, I have a level of expectation in order to give them that reward. I do not expect it to be spotless (7 clears) though it is an option and if they did that, I'd probably give them an extra treat (placement reward). No, to gain the reward of the trip to the movies I'd expect greater than a 50% improvement on the current state of their room, I'd like to see their clothes folded, put away and I can see the floor so it can get vacuumed and a load of laundry started. I don't expect them to dust their furniture, clean the trim and corners of the ceiling, clean their windows, or dust the blades of their ceiling fans. I expect a reasonable amount of work (4 of 7 clears). If they came to me and said "I'm done, lets go" and all they did was stuff all their clothes from the floor into their laundry basket and pushed everything under their bed or into the floor of their closet (3 out of 7)... that's technically 'work', but nothing different or difficult than they have normally been doing (Especially when i look in the laundry basket and the clean folded clothes I put on their beds to put away last week are stuffed in there...), I would not reward them but instead tell them to keep working.

If they Reduced the TOTAL number of clears possible to get down to 1 point, then reducing the number of clears to MAX progression would be reasonable in comparison.

My point is, 3/7 doesn't seem a reasonable amount of work for getting MAX rewards. Whether 7 clears is reasonable to sane people is a totally different subject.

It's max PROGRESSION not just MAX. Easing the max progression rewards would/could boost several things in the game:
1. Those who care about placement would likely have a slightly easier time with more people stopping at max progression.
2. People not having to spend 3 hours a day and all 10 healthpacks would encourage players only playing PvE to participate more in PvP.

And ultimately to your point it wouldn't have to be 3/7. Drop it back down to 6 again. The point is that 4 clears a day is too much work for a mobile game, especially if they expect anyone to try and do both PvE and PvP.

ChuckFan

I was a 3->4 transissioner not that long ago and I recall how I struggled sometimes with this newish x4 PVE format. But I got though that point and am solidly into the 4s now with my lucky 13th champed one.

It's definitely possible if you have the right characters champed & boosted with favourable scaling. Last new release was the perfect storm with Peggy, Iceman, IM40 all boosted (champed for me). I was able to start timers on one sub with a PB of 45 minutes just running these 3 for all nodes. My 5s are still base level as none of them have over 9 covers.

So yeah, work hard on building those good 4s, (while at the mercy of RNG for 5s) and soon you will find PVE much easier!

Stax the Foyer

JVReal wrote:

ClydeFrog76 wrote:

JVReal wrote:

I think asking for MAX progression to be 3 clears out of 7 is asking for a lot.

Why? How long do the devs actually want us to play their game for? There's DDQ and PVP on top of that, which most people also engage in.

Why would you expect it would be appropriate to pay MAX rewards to anyone doing less than 50% of maximum clears?

Would you pay your carpenter his MAX payment for only building 3/7 of your staircase?

I have kids, and if I offered to take them to the movies if they cleaned their room, I have a level of expectation in order to give them that reward. I do not expect it to be spotless (7 clears) though it is an option and if they did that, I'd probably give them an extra treat (placement reward). No, to gain the reward of the trip to the movies I'd expect greater than a 50% improvement on the current state of their room, I'd like to see their clothes folded, put away and I can see the floor so it can get vacuumed and a load of laundry started. I don't expect them to dust their furniture, clean the trim and corners of the ceiling, clean their windows, or dust the blades of their ceiling fans. I expect a reasonable amount of work (4 of 7 clears). If they came to me and said "I'm done, lets go" and all they did was stuff all their clothes from the floor into their laundry basket and pushed everything under their bed or into the floor of their closet (3 out of 7)... that's technically 'work', but nothing different or difficult than they have normally been doing (Especially when i look in the laundry basket and the clean folded clothes I put on their beds to put away last week are stuffed in there...), I would not reward them but instead tell them to keep working.

If they Reduced the TOTAL number of clears possible to get down to 1 point, then reducing the number of clears to MAX progression would be reasonable in comparison.

My point is, 3/7 doesn't seem a reasonable amount of work for getting MAX rewards. Whether 7 clears is reasonable to sane people is a totally different subject.

Except that the first clear or two don't do anything other than take up time. The scaling is so low that there's virtually no risk. It's a pure time sink in a game that's already a giant time sink. Sinkception.

If I asked my kid to clean their room, and they did 3/7th of it and thought they were done, they'd have unrealistic expectations.

If I asked my kid to clean their room, and when they were done I dumped everything back off the shelves and threw on an extra layer of dirt and made them clean it again, I'd be the jerk. If I repeated that five more times, I'd be a **** sadist.

broll

Stax the Foyer wrote:

If I asked my kid to clean their room, and when they were done I dumped everything back off the shelves and threw on an extra layer of dirt and made them clean it again, I'd be the jerk. If I repeated that five more times, I'd be a tinykitty sadist.

You just described what the 6th clear feels like...

GurlBYE

This community is so divided on the silliest things.

"Hey guys what if we ALL had to do less clears of the same monotonous nodes (maybe removing the first level of scaling for a node that usually is just a time sink) and making 3 clears the normal? It'd let us play more of the game and lessen burnout!"


"Well if I only did 3/6th of my job"

The fact that you guys are comparing it to WORK instead of GAMING speaks volumes.
There is no challenge to be had, just a roster check

Less clears means EVERYONE benefits.

Not just people going for progression and not just those going for placement.

EVERYONE benefits!

I understand its fun to argue online but what does removing a clear take away from gameplay that is valuable to you as a player, instead of talking about your job or staircases argue why the idea doesn't work where it applies. In this game

JVReal

GurlBYE wrote:

This community is so divided on the silliest things.

"Hey guys what if we ALL had to do less clears of the same monotonous nodes (maybe removing the first level of scaling for a node that usually is just a time sink) and making 3 clears the normal? It'd let us play more of the game and lessen burnout!"


"Well if I only did 3/6th of my job"

The fact that you guys are comparing it to WORK instead of GAMING speaks volumes.
There is no challenge to be had, just a roster check

Less clears means EVERYONE benefits.

Not just people going for progression and not just those going for placement.

EVERYONE benefits!

I understand its fun to argue online but what does removing a clear take away from gameplay that is valuable to you as a player, instead of talking about your job or staircases argue why the idea doesn't work where it applies. In this game

I don't think you really grasp what's being talked about. It's not whether 3 clears would be good or not for max progression. They drop it to 3, I'd smile and do my 3 clears + some because I go for green checks for the Experience points. Nobody is saying it wouldn't be a good thing.

What I'm saying is that the argument that 4/7 as a ratio of effort/reward to get a maximum progression reward is not an unreasonable concept. Saying it is unreasonable in order to justify asking for a 3/7 effort to get maximum rewards is asking a lot of a developer we have come to recognize as very stingy with rewards. Right now 4 out of 7 clears is 57% of possible clears to get max progression. 3 out of 7 clears is 43% of possible clears. If converted to a grade letter for Effort as if you were in school... both would be E's.

If they reduced the max clears to 6, then 57% effort would be 3.4 clears. More in line with what the OP was asking. So it isn't the ratio that is out of whack, perhaps it is the total number of possible clears for max points.

Stax the Foyer

JVReal wrote:

I don't think you really grasp what's being talked about. It's not whether 3 clears would be good or not for max progression. They drop it to 3, I'd smile and do my 3 clears + some because I go for green checks for the Experience points. Nobody is saying it wouldn't be a good thing.

What I'm saying is that the argument that 4/7 as a ratio of effort/reward to get a maximum progression reward is not an unreasonable concept. Saying it is unreasonable in order to justify asking for a 3/7 effort to get maximum rewards is asking a lot of a developer we have come to recognize as very stingy with rewards. Right now 4 out of 7 clears is 57% of possible clears to get max progression. 3 out of 7 clears is 43% of possible clears. If converted to a grade letter for Effort as if you were in school... both would be E's.

If they reduced the max clears to 6, then 57% effort would be 3.4 clears. More in line with what the OP was asking. So it isn't the ratio that is out of whack, perhaps it is the total number of possible clears for max points.

You're the only one focusing on the ratio, as far as I can see. The OP and the rest of us are primarily concerned with the absolute number of clears we need to do to hit progression. Focusing on a ratio that doesn't need to be tied to the progression curve and is already at 4/7 (and a significantly easier 4 clears than the back 3, at that) muddles the issue and unnecessarily links progression forever to the point decay structure.

There's already a significant difference between maximum fixed rewards (6 clears, generally) and maximum progression. People would still be rewarded for additional clears because of node rewards, should they choose to do so.

Plus, 57% effort is very misleading. I'd say that well over 50% of the fights you do if you hit max progression and then stop are completely trivial. 4 of the 9 nodes never get truly difficult, and the other nodes only really get hard on the last two hits or so. Hitting max progression is more like 30-40% of the effort required to place competitively. PvE is primarily busywork for someone who only plays to max progression, and I'd like to see less of that.

Daiches

GurlBYE wrote:

This community is so divided on the silliest things.

"Hey guys what if we ALL had to do less clears of the same monotonous nodes (maybe removing the first level of scaling for a node that usually is just a time sink) and making 3 clears the normal? It'd let us play more of the game and lessen burnout!"


"Well if I only did 3/6th of my job"

The fact that you guys are comparing it to WORK instead of GAMING speaks volumes.
There is no challenge to be had, just a roster check

Less clears means EVERYONE benefits.

Not just people going for progression and not just those going for placement.

EVERYONE benefits!

I understand its fun to argue online but what does removing a clear take away from gameplay that is valuable to you as a player, instead of talking about your job or staircases argue why the idea doesn't work where it applies. In this game

Less clears = tighter scores = even more demanding to playing on time.


Definitely NOT everyone benefits. The ones at the top of the table playing for first or top 10 have it hard enough already.

JVReal

Stax the Foyer wrote:

You're the only one focusing on the ratio, as far as I can see. The OP and the rest of us are primarily concerned with the absolute number of clears we need to do to hit progression. Focusing on a ratio that doesn't need to be tied to the progression curve and is already at 4/7 (and a significantly easier 4 clears than the back 3, at that) muddles the issue and unnecessarily links progression forever to the point decay structure.

There's already a significant difference between maximum fixed rewards (6 clears, generally) and maximum progression. People would still be rewarded for additional clears because of node rewards, should they choose to do so.

Plus, 57% effort is very misleading. I'd say that well over 50% of the fights you do if you hit max progression and then stop are completely trivial. 4 of the 9 nodes never get truly difficult, and the other nodes only really get hard on the last two hits or so. Hitting max progression is more like 30-40% of the effort required to place competitively. PvE is primarily busywork for someone who only plays to max progression, and I'd like to see less of that.

So max progression is too easy and you want it easier? Gotcha.
The OP wants 3 clears for max progression instead of 4. He feels it's justifiable effort for reward. I mentioned the ratio to show that 3 clears is way too little effort for a maximum progression reward... get max reward for progressing 40% of the event. Your answer is, the 4/7 clears is easier than you think... lets make it 3 clears instead because I can't be bothered to do 4 clears for the rewards that I want.

If they change it, that would be wonderful. If they don't, I understand why.

If they do remove a clear, it won't be the fluff clears you talk about. They tried to get rid of those fluff clears before, and people freaked out. People demanded the fluff clears back. This forum baffles me sometimes. Good day fellows.

Stax the Foyer

JVReal wrote:

Stax the Foyer wrote:

You're the only one focusing on the ratio, as far as I can see. The OP and the rest of us are primarily concerned with the absolute number of clears we need to do to hit progression. Focusing on a ratio that doesn't need to be tied to the progression curve and is already at 4/7 (and a significantly easier 4 clears than the back 3, at that) muddles the issue and unnecessarily links progression forever to the point decay structure.

There's already a significant difference between maximum fixed rewards (6 clears, generally) and maximum progression. People would still be rewarded for additional clears because of node rewards, should they choose to do so.

Plus, 57% effort is very misleading. I'd say that well over 50% of the fights you do if you hit max progression and then stop are completely trivial. 4 of the 9 nodes never get truly difficult, and the other nodes only really get hard on the last two hits or so. Hitting max progression is more like 30-40% of the effort required to place competitively. PvE is primarily busywork for someone who only plays to max progression, and I'd like to see less of that.

So max progression is too easy and you want it easier? Gotcha.

The OP wants 3 clears for max progression instead of 4. He feels it's justifiable effort for reward. I mentioned the ratio to show that 3 clears is way too little effort for a maximum progression reward... get max reward for progressing 40% of the event. Your answer is, the 4/7 clears is easier than you think... lets make it 3 clears instead because I can't be bothered to do 4 clears for the rewards that I want.

If they change it, that would be wonderful. If they don't, I understand why.

If they do remove a clear, it won't be the fluff clears you talk about. They tried to get rid of those fluff clears before, and people freaked out. People demanded the fluff clears back. This forum baffles me sometimes. Good day fellows.

It's not hard, it's time-consuming. I don't want it easier, I want it shorter.

Your idea that 4/7 is reasonable but 3/7 would be a bridge too far is peculiar, but is also completely incidental to that.

Fightmastermpq

OJSP wrote:

GurlBYE wrote:

Daiches wrote:

4 clears takes an hour. An hour you can spread out over 24h if you are doing nothing else but the 4 clear minimum.

4 clears DOES NOT take 1 hour.

I have a 3 star roster with pretty much all the 3 stars worth talking about champed.

1 hour is hyperbole, gamer bravado talk.

I know the 4 star tier and above have some combos that can knock em out the park but even winfinite isn't even clearing nodes in less than 3-4 minutes per clear at 5 nodes (which nearly never happens) once they hit higher scaling,

Winfinite is slow.

Come to slice 3 and see Daiches clear the nodes in 1 hour. It's not hyperbole. He's just a different type of player to most (i.e. the top 1%). There are also faster players, and players who grind trivial nodes for 1 pt.

We have a bizarre player base. Instead of supporting each other, we like to knock each other in the forum.

If you want to know what sort of roster he has, go to the Season alliance leader board. His alliance is currently top10. (Or if you happen to share a season bracket with us, he's also top10..)

Just wanted to second this. I PvE in S4 typically and it rarely takes me longer than 90 minutes to get my initial 4 clears in. For release events my leaderboard is already filled with mostly 3* and 4* rosters by then.

GurlBYE

OJSP wrote:

GurlBYE wrote:

Daiches wrote:

4 clears takes an hour. An hour you can spread out over 24h if you are doing nothing else but the 4 clear minimum.

4 clears DOES NOT take 1 hour.

I have a 3 star roster with pretty much all the 3 stars worth talking about champed.

1 hour is hyperbole, gamer bravado talk.

I know the 4 star tier and above have some combos that can knock em out the park but even winfinite isn't even clearing nodes in less than 3-4 minutes per clear at 5 nodes (which nearly never happens) once they hit higher scaling,

Winfinite is slow.

Come to slice 3 and see Daiches clear the nodes in 1 hour. It's not hyperbole. He's just a different type of player to most (i.e. the top 1%). There are also faster players, and players who grind trivial nodes for 1 pt.

We have a bizarre player base. Instead of supporting each other, we like to knock each other in the forum.

If you want to know what sort of roster he has, go to the Season alliance leader board. His alliance is currently top10. (Or if you happen to share a season bracket with us, he's also top10..)

To address this.

His personal time isn't indicative of the player base at large.

No ones tearing him down, in fact it, him being top 10 further separates him from others. And to be fair the post above mine is even talking about regularly taking 2.5 x the time listed.

him telling others it takes an hour doesn't do anything but tell us how long he takes.

Why on earth would the clear time of a top 10 player be indicative of the general player base of thousands on thousands of players?

If he's exceptional at this, his time should be taken as what it is, an Exception,

not the standard. thats as polar opposite of the standard as you get.

in fact he'd likely fare even better.

Edit- banished to the wastelands of the forum

dr tinykittylove

GurlBYE wrote:

OJSP wrote:

GurlBYE wrote:

Daiches wrote:

4 clears takes an hour. An hour you can spread out over 24h if you are doing nothing else but the 4 clear minimum.

4 clears DOES NOT take 1 hour.

I have a 3 star roster with pretty much all the 3 stars worth talking about champed.

1 hour is hyperbole, gamer bravado talk.

I know the 4 star tier and above have some combos that can knock em out the park but even winfinite isn't even clearing nodes in less than 3-4 minutes per clear at 5 nodes (which nearly never happens) once they hit higher scaling,

Winfinite is slow.

Come to slice 3 and see Daiches clear the nodes in 1 hour. It's not hyperbole. He's just a different type of player to most (i.e. the top 1%). There are also faster players, and players who grind trivial nodes for 1 pt.

We have a bizarre player base. Instead of supporting each other, we like to knock each other in the forum.

If you want to know what sort of roster he has, go to the Season alliance leader board. His alliance is currently top10. (Or if you happen to share a season bracket with us, he's also top10..)

To address this.

His personal time isn't indicative of the player base at large.

No ones tearing him down, in fact it, him being top 10 further separates him from others. And to be fair the post above mine is even talking about regularly taking 2.5 x the time listed.

him telling others it takes an hour doesn't do anything but tell us how long he takes.

Why on earth would the clear time of a top 10 player be indicative of the general player base of thousands on thousands of players?

If he's exceptional at this, his time should be taken as what it is, an Exception,

not the standard. thats as polar opposite of the standard as you get.

in fact he'd likely fare even better.

Edit- banished to the wastelands of the forum

Daiches having a fast clear time isn't magic or him being the most awesomest player ever -well, he might be, but it's also a function of roster, which is that thing we are all working to build. It's fun to get stronger and more badass!

Play long enough and hard enough, your roster progresses, things get easier.

And then the devs throw out some boss event to crush him underfoot because that's how they roll.

kobu

For the love of Murgatryod, please just knock off a clear from everything. Enemy of the State is just unbearable as is. Make regular nodes 3/5, waves 2/3. I used to think waves were okay at 4 for all rewards, but how wrong I was. Let the crazies go to 7 clears if they want to fight for placement, I just don't care anymore.