Should the AI be smarter?

carrion_pigeons

I would be okay with the AI being smarter if it came with reduced levels. I really hate that so much of what the game is about is just grinding away at endless HP bars, and I'd welcome a more engaging match that came with significantly smaller pools of health.

Also, tactical retreats ought to be less punishing, in a world like that. Maybe to the point that the game even offers a suggestion to retreat when things start to go wrong.

Uninspired

Phumade wrote:

...

The more interesting question is to ask how should QS switch tiles and in what situations? And then reprioritizing colors based on the synergies of teammates.

If we really pursue this line of discussion, we should really be asking "What ways the AI should be smarter? and how as players do we reoptimize our play?"

[/quote]

Switching identical tiles is something a player would never do.* Stopping the AI from doing it reduces the number of completely useless moves the AI might make. I have no problem if the AI makes a switch that doesn't make or set up a match, but there should at least be a reasonable chance of a power having an impact on the game.

With such a change, I don't think players need to reoptimize. It might stop players from trying to exploit the AI, like stunning another green user so HT uses Flame Jet with 5AP and effectively wastes all the AI team's green AP. While you might argue that this gives an advantage to clever players, I'd argue that it just means clever players value HT less in PVP.


*: OK, I admit I will use QS to swap identical tiles if it ends the match just to speed things along, and maybe to mock the AI a little by making a useless swap...

Jabrony_Geoff

bbigler wrote:

We all know that the AI is pretty dumb, it misses match 5's all the time, it matches it's own special tiles when there are other options and sometimes uses the weaker of 2 powers of the same color. My question for you all is whether or not the overall game would be better with a smarter AI.

By the bristling beard of All-father Odin, surely thou have fallen under some unholy enchantment of the evil Loki.

A period of 2 mortal months on the Isle of silence with a daily elixir of blended troll toe nails will rid thee of thine terrible disease.

Away with thee varmint..!!!!!

bbigler

StarScream wrote:

If you could show proof of the AI missing a match five or even passing up match four for a three that would be great. I have yet to see it. The opposite in fact. My matches often set them up for a match four or five.

The AI misses match 5's when the tiles are in an "L" or "T" shape. The only time it ever matches five is when the tiles are in a straight line.

bbigler

aesthetocyst wrote:

Multiple AI profiles as an supplement / alternative to nutso scaling when it comes to ramping up difficulty, sure. Anything to break up the monotony of all difficulty = scaling. Players could "graduate" to playing a smarter opponent at same level, rather than facing hyperscaled morons.

Given the choice to play against a more sophisticated AI for increased rewards, absolutely.

More sophisticated AI as an opponent in new gameplay modes that are about outwitting the opponent in an effort to meet a win condition (such as collecting certain amounts of certain colors, destroying # of gems/columns/rows, making match-4s/-5s, racking up a score, etc), rather than directly damaging the opponent's team? Absolutely!

More sophisticated AI across the board just for the heck of it? No. Heck no. Without increased compensation, it would be more punitive to the players, and in MPQ's current model, more punitive always means more costly.

I like your first idea. Get rid of scaling and introduce a smarter AI with each mission, but the reward for clearing needs to also increase. I hate the random 1 out of 6 rewards model.

bbigler

Jabrony Geoff wrote:

bbigler wrote:

We all know that the AI is pretty dumb, it misses match 5's all the time, it matches it's own special tiles when there are other options and sometimes uses the weaker of 2 powers of the same color. My question for you all is whether or not the overall game would be better with a smarter AI.

By the bristling beard of All-father Odin, surely thou have fallen under some unholy enchantment of the evil Loki.

A period of 2 mortal months on the Isle of silence with a daily elixir of blended troll toe nails will rid thee of thine terrible disease.

Away with thee varmint..!!!!!

MushroomGenius808

Also, as we've seen with the preemptive "VICTORY" banner, the tiles above the game board are pre-determined. Does the AI know what these tiles are that we cannot see? Could a smarter AI absolutely crush us with monster cascades using this knowledge?

Nightglider1

BearVenger wrote:

Nightglider1 wrote:

SnowcaTT wrote:

Should players be required to have more losses?

At the risk of being the forum pariah, we're "supposed to lose."

We were only "supposed to lose" in a specific survival-style Boss event, framed as contributing to an alliance victory in the long run.

I don't support many specific game philosophies in MPQ, but I'd love to see this gripe kept in the perspective it was offered.

I understand the perspective in which it was offered. My comment was meant to be humorous in response to SnowcaTT's question, but I acknowledge that humor can be tough to pull off on forum threads.

At any rate, I thought it was funny.

Nightglider1

MushroomGenius808 wrote:

Also, as we've seen with the preemptive "VICTORY" banner, the tiles above the game board are pre-determined. Does the AI know what these tiles are that we cannot see? Could a smarter AI absolutely crush us with monster cascades using this knowledge?

They're not pre-determined, at least not in the manner you're suggesting. There was a great thread about this some months back - I think I bookmarked int on my home PC. If I can find the link I'll share it. The premature victory banner is an order-of-operations display issue.

jobob

I am all for the theory. I have zero faith that an attempt by D3/Demi to make the AI "smarter" would turn out well for players.

robertbah

If a true AI like alphago is developed, we will lose all the time. of course, no one likes to lose and there will be only a very small portion of players left.

We already get angry when AI got cascades a lot and feel that they are cheating. If a true AI arrange the board so that you only got limited moves or they do winfinites on you. You probably will break your phone or computer.

No, for your question.

Crnch73

aesthetocyst wrote:

MushroomGenius808 wrote:

Also, as we've seen with the preemptive "VICTORY" banner, the tiles above the game board are pre-determined....

Nope. Incorrect interpretation.

The action (including tile generation) is calculated far faster than the animations play, but that is not at all the same as having a predetermined, effectively bottomless, stack of unseen tiles piled on top of the board at the start of the match.

Although, if said unseen skyscraper of tiles was there at start of match, it could help explain the pernicious "board drop" crashes on Steam. Gods, that tinykitty gets old.

I am not saying the tiles are predetermined, but the AI definitely knows what is coming next. I have seen a red/green/yellow character choose to make a 3-black match with multiple red matches available, and I look on with a puzzled expression... only to see the new tiles drop from the top, make a red AND yellow match, and start a cascade that I could not have foreseen. I don't consider it cheating, but anyone who claims the AI doesn't know what tiles will drop where is burying their head in the sand.

Polares

The problem is that this game is all about repetition without losing, and playing as fast as you can. There is no room for chess like matches, were you need to carefully think each and every move (the only place where you can do this is maybe in Gauntlet).

Health packs are very valuable resource for most people, and also speed is very very important, so if you make AI smarter, even if you reduce their levels, and you assume that your risk of losing a match is incremented then you are basically screwed, losing a match costs you health packs and time. You can get health packs with money (not desirable but you can) but time is gone forever.

So, the answer is No as the game is right now, game would need to be completely rethought for a smarter AI, we would basically need a new game play mode.

We would also need some rules of how the AI works so we can anticipate its moves, as people does when playing games like Chess and Go.

broll

I don't want to see smarter AI, especially not in PvE.

I would like to see a new mode that has actual PvP where you play against other players that are actually choosing their moves, vs the AI playing their roster.

If that's too difficult, at least give PvP player the ability to set their defensive teams and tweak how the AI uses their team.
Examples:
- Being able to set which ability is top priority.
- Being able to tell the AI to save up for a higher level skill vs always dumping on a lower one
- Being able to tell the AI to not launch a particular move until certain amount of AP are reached.

IamTheDanger

Should the Ai be smarter?

Well, every sci-fi movie I've ever seen says NO !!! It never ends well for humans.

MushroomGenius808 wrote:Also, as we've seen with the preemptive "VICTORY" banner, the tiles above the game board are pre-determined. Does the AI know what these tiles are that we cannot see? Could a smarter AI absolutely crush us with monster cascades using this knowledge?

This ^^^. I was using IM40. He was at about 600 health left. My other 2 were dead. There were 2 enemie left alive. One with about 10% health, the other with about 20%. But they had several strong strike tiles out. I had recharge tiles out and took my turn and then got the "Victory" banner. I was at first confused, until the Ai took it's turn. Dropping me to 87 health. Then it came back to me. BUT, my recharge tiles counted down to Zero. Stunning me. However, in the process of counting down, they caused a massive cascade that won me the match. If I had not gotten that cascade, I would have lost. With 87 health and stunned for 2 turns, I was a goner.

My question; how did the Ai know that even though I was stunned with one turn away from death, I was going to get a cascade? And that the cascade would contain 3 match 5 critical hits?

With an Ai that knows what is coming before we do, do you really want them to be smarter? T.V. says no, and I believe T.V. It would never lie to me.

bbigler

Polares wrote:

The problem is that this game is all about repetition without losing, and playing as fast as you can. There is no room for chess like matches, were you need to carefully think each and every move (the only place where you can do this is maybe in Gauntlet).

Health packs are very valuable resource for most people, and also speed is very very important, so if you make AI smarter, even if you reduce their levels, and you assume that your risk of losing a match is incremented then you are basically screwed, losing a match costs you health packs and time. You can get health packs with money (not desirable but you can) but time is gone forever.

So, the answer is No as the game is right now, game would need to be completely rethought for a smarter AI, we would basically need a new game play mode.

We would also need some rules of how the AI works so we can anticipate its moves, as people does when playing games like Chess and Go.

Perhaps the game would be better if it was more chess-like. Do you like playing hurried games? I don't like feeling pressured to play as fast as possible. Isn't this supposed to be a puzzle quest? not a speed quest? The devs could take out the grind and make it more "puzzling" and you get satisfaction (and rewards) from figuring it out.

broll

That is only predetermined if your definition of predetermined is 'determined after the last player action but before the graphics display'. As soon as you finished your turn all the calculations for what happens in the remaining phases were all processes and that happens very quickly, so quickly that the graphics showing the player the outcome of those lag significantly.

It's kinda like if you ask me to think of a number and write it down a piece a paper, you think of the number before you write it down, but we don't know you've thought of it until we see you write it down.

bbigler

IamTheDanger wrote:

Should the Ai be smarter?

Well, every sci-fi movie I've ever seen says NO !!! It never ends well for humans.

MushroomGenius808 wrote:Also, as we've seen with the preemptive "VICTORY" banner, the tiles above the game board are pre-determined. Does the AI know what these tiles are that we cannot see? Could a smarter AI absolutely crush us with monster cascades using this knowledge?

This ^^^. I was using IM40. He was at about 600 health left. My other 2 were dead. There were 2 enemie left alive. One with about 10% health, the other with about 20%. But they had several strong strike tiles out. I had recharge tiles out and took my turn and then got the "Victory" banner. I was at first confused, until the Ai took it's turn. Dropping me to 87 health. Then it came back to me. BUT, my recharge tiles counted down to Zero. Stunning me. However, in the process of counting down, they caused a massive cascade that won me the match. If I had not gotten that cascade, I would have lost. With 87 health and stunned for 2 turns, I was a goner.

My question; how did the Ai know that even though I was stunned with one turn away from death, I was going to get a cascade? And that the cascade would contain 3 match 5 critical hits?

With an Ai that knows what is coming before we do, do you really want them to be smarter? T.V. says no, and I believe T.V. It would never lie to me.

The computer can't cheat by knowing upcoming tiles (as explained in other posts) because it only looks at the current board. Let me explain why you get the victory banner too early. Most people don't understand this simple computing rule: for a computer, logic and math processing is much, much faster than graphics processing, so the computer determines the upcoming tiles, determines matches and damage, deducts the damage to kill characters, determines the winner and then sends the graphic request to show the victory banner. This all happens faster than the graphic animation to show the new tiles fall down, match, show the damage animation and change the character graphic to "downed" state.

Jarvind

IamTheDanger wrote:

Should the Ai be smarter?

Well, every sci-fi movie I've ever seen says NO !!! It never ends well for humans.

MushroomGenius808 wrote:Also, as we've seen with the preemptive "VICTORY" banner, the tiles above the game board are pre-determined. Does the AI know what these tiles are that we cannot see? Could a smarter AI absolutely crush us with monster cascades using this knowledge?

This ^^^. I was using IM40. He was at about 600 health left. My other 2 were dead. There were 2 enemie left alive. One with about 10% health, the other with about 20%. But they had several strong strike tiles out. I had recharge tiles out and took my turn and then got the "Victory" banner. I was at first confused, until the Ai took it's turn. Dropping me to 87 health. Then it came back to me. BUT, my recharge tiles counted down to Zero. Stunning me. However, in the process of counting down, they caused a massive cascade that won me the match. If I had not gotten that cascade, I would have lost. With 87 health and stunned for 2 turns, I was a goner.

My question; how did the Ai know that even though I was stunned with one turn away from death, I was going to get a cascade? And that the cascade would contain 3 match 5 critical hits?

With an Ai that knows what is coming before we do, do you really want them to be smarter? T.V. says no, and I believe T.V. It would never lie to me.

Once you were stunned, it instantly calculated the next few moves, since you weren't going to be able to make any moves.

GurlBYE

If they reduce the number of clears to one, then sure.

until then, no.