Forum suggestion: Bring back the downvotes

El Satanno

Let's face it, there's a lot of garbage posting around here. And I'm not just talking about the constant whining, or the tired non-arguments, or the entitlement, or the content-free rambling... Okay, actually that covers a lot of it, but whatever.

I recently earned myself another warning for what was apparently considered an attack/flame on another user. My feelings on the situation aside, had I an easier option to let my opinion be expressed I could have avoided rousing the ire of the Powers That Be and some delicate flower petal here would be a little less butthurt...maybe not a lot, but a little. How many times have you seen a post, rolled your eyes, and moved on feeling somewhat unsatisfied that the obvious and appropriate response of "this post is bad and you are constantly making bad posts and should stop it forever" will be met with warnings/bans? Because there are a lot of them, aren't there? I've got my little black list of people I wish would go away. You surely do, too. Maybe I'm on it.

Why not give us the privilege to police ourselves once more? Let us bury the anti-content that continues to muddy the dwindling reservoir of edifying discussion in this place. Let us quietly but firmly acknowledge the insipid and put them where they belong: Unseen and unheard. I know one reason downvotes were removed was to avoid vote brigading, however it seems to me that that risk is a small price to pay if the deluge of **** posts could be stemmed.

(Yes, I'm grumpy.)

fmftint

User control panel, friends and foes, manage foes, posters you don't care for disappear

Dartmaster01

I don't agree at all. Now where is that thumbs down button at?

morph3us

The Bob The

Now whoooo would suggest such a thing? I just don't know, could it beeeee....

JVReal

It's definitely something worth considering. On one hand, it may cause people to pause before posting their content if they are at all worried about their reputation points... or they may not care.

The obvious benefit is that a person who cannot 'read' the collective feeling of the forum can get a very visual representation of it by their reputation points. Enough down-votes and the post gets hidden. We have more useful content visible in threads without having to drudge through the horrible posts.

The negative to it is the petty nature of people, and their using it to retaliate against people who may have 'wronged' them in some other post, either in writing or by multiple down-votes on a heated thread topic.

It would be nice to eliminate some of the senseless posts on a thread that express disagreement when it can be done with a button... but at the same time it would eliminate some useful posts on a thread that express disagreement. Not being able to simply click the down-vote sometimes makes a person have to express themselves and actually lay out a logical argument (and many people need as much practice in that as possible) and stimulates conversation.

I think the entire time it was available, I only down-voted about 3 times. I've been down-voted and felt the inexplicable sting that came with it... why would it bother me? I don't know, it just did. Why does a pin prick hurt? Does it matter why? I just know it does. I think what bothered me was that I always reserved down-voting for mean posts that were unnecessary and uncalled for and inappropriate. So when I was down-voted, I took that definition and said "i'm not that way"... when in actuality, the person who down-voted simply didn't have the same opinion and it was just an "Agree"/"Disagree" button to them.

So to summarize where I stand on the down-vote button... I am undecided. I'll let the forum admins decide that and just roll with it.

Nightglider1

By the time I had enough rep to downvote, the downvote button was removed, so I have no experience with it.

Fightmastermpq

JVReal wrote:

It's definitely something worth considering. On one hand, it may cause people to pause before posting their content if they are at all worried about their reputation points... or they may not care.

The obvious benefit is that a person who cannot 'read' the collective feeling of the forum can get a very visual representation of it by their reputation points. Enough down-votes and the post gets hidden. We have more useful content visible in threads without having to drudge through the horrible posts.

The negative to it is the petty nature of people, and their using it to retaliate against people who may have 'wronged' them in some other post, either in writing or by multiple down-votes on a heated thread topic.

It would be nice to eliminate some of the senseless posts on a thread that express disagreement when it can be done with a button... but at the same time it would eliminate some useful posts on a thread that express disagreement. Not being able to simply click the down-vote sometimes makes a person have to express themselves and actually lay out a logical argument (and many people need as much practice in that as possible) and stimulates conversation.

I think the entire time it was available, I only down-voted about 3 times. I've been down-voted and felt the inexplicable sting that came with it... why would it bother me? I don't know, it just did. Why does a pin prick hurt? Does it matter why? I just know it does. I think what bothered me was that I always reserved down-voting for mean posts that were unnecessary and uncalled for and inappropriate. So when I was down-voted, I took that definition and said "i'm not that way"... when in actuality, the person who down-voted simply didn't have the same opinion and it was just an "Agree"/"Disagree" button to them.

So to summarize where I stand on the down-vote button... I am undecided. I'll let the forum admins decide that and just roll with it.

The solution is you have a reputation system where the amount of points you earn is based on the reputation of the user that upvotes you. So if some all-star poster like simonsez likes your post it is worth a ton of points, if it's some underling like myself it barely makes a dent. Then the negative votes are worth like a tenth of the positive ones. So dissenting opinions aren't necessarily suppressed, but users are still able to see which posts are really bad.

It'll never happen. Admin's skin is too thin and they prefer to have the highest position reputation compared to the highest negative one......see simon's perma-ban for reference.

You could always allow users to opt out of the reputation system as well. So if your skin is too thin to deal with people disagreeing with you, you can just not allow users to vote on any of your posts.

JamieMadrox

Downvotes become a problem with this community that ends up generating more work than is achievable by a small group of volunteers (mods). If you find something offensive, off-topic, or otherwise contrary to the board & forums rules, by all means report it and we'll deal with it accordingly. Having a bad post removed is much more effective than sending a few downvotes and it helps change behaviour for the better.

Punisher5784

Although we'll never see the return of the Down Vote, I wish they would remove the Negative points from our accounts.

I have -17.. I should have a reputation of 2549.. yes it's small and stupid but it bothers me to see -17

jobob

Punisher5784 wrote:

Although we'll never see the return of the Down Vote, I wish they would remove the Negative points from our accounts.

I have -17.. I should have a reputation of 2549.. yes it's small and stupid but it bothers me to see -17

You can still get negative points though. Only admins (and maybe mods?) can give them.

broll

I didn't know the forum used to have one. I've wished there was one a few times

jobob

Fightmastermpq wrote:

JVReal wrote:

It's definitely something worth considering. On one hand, it may cause people to pause before posting their content if they are at all worried about their reputation points... or they may not care.

The obvious benefit is that a person who cannot 'read' the collective feeling of the forum can get a very visual representation of it by their reputation points. Enough down-votes and the post gets hidden. We have more useful content visible in threads without having to drudge through the horrible posts.

The negative to it is the petty nature of people, and their using it to retaliate against people who may have 'wronged' them in some other post, either in writing or by multiple down-votes on a heated thread topic.

It would be nice to eliminate some of the senseless posts on a thread that express disagreement when it can be done with a button... but at the same time it would eliminate some useful posts on a thread that express disagreement. Not being able to simply click the down-vote sometimes makes a person have to express themselves and actually lay out a logical argument (and many people need as much practice in that as possible) and stimulates conversation.

I think the entire time it was available, I only down-voted about 3 times. I've been down-voted and felt the inexplicable sting that came with it... why would it bother me? I don't know, it just did. Why does a pin prick hurt? Does it matter why? I just know it does. I think what bothered me was that I always reserved down-voting for mean posts that were unnecessary and uncalled for and inappropriate. So when I was down-voted, I took that definition and said "i'm not that way"... when in actuality, the person who down-voted simply didn't have the same opinion and it was just an "Agree"/"Disagree" button to them.

So to summarize where I stand on the down-vote button... I am undecided. I'll let the forum admins decide that and just roll with it.

The solution is you having a reputation system where the amount of points you earn is based on the reputation of the user that upvotes you. So if some all-star poster like simonsez likes your post it is worth a ton of points, if it's some underling like myself it barely makes a dent. Then the negative votes are worth like a tenth of the position ones. So dissenting opinions aren't necessarily suppressed, but users are still able to see which posts are really bad.

It'll never happen. Admin's skin is too thin and they prefer to have the highest position reputation compared to the highest negative one......see simon's perma-ban for reference.

You could always allow users to opt out of the reputation system as well. So if your skin is too thin to deal with people disagreeing with you, you can just not allow users to vote on any of your posts.

Simon is perma'd? What did he say that got the ban-mjolnir to drop?

Stax the Foyer

Downvotes gave us the glorious moment when an announcement post was downvoted so far that the original post was hidden. That was one of my top 5 MPQ moments.

But yes, downvotes make the forum better, even with the risk that it'll tend towards groupthink. If there's a way to limit the amount of downvotes you can give per day, I think that would be enough regulation on the system to prevent systemic abuse.

Dragon_Nexus

I don't want them to come back. I thought it was a silly idea to remove them at first, but given time I understand it.

It's not quite "If ya ain't got nuthin nice to say, don't say nuthin" philosophy but it's close. If you're only able to upvote that means you're more likely to pay attention to the posts you actually like and skim past the negative stuff. It also encourages good behaviour. If posters see posts with lots of upvotes it can encourage you to be a nicer person or at least contribute better so maybe *you'll* get that positive attention you crave.

Nothing like posting a "witty" and "biting" comment on a forum only to find it gets no thumb ups because people think you're a jerk. Then the guy who actually contributes gets 20 upvotes in an hour.

dsds

Shouldn't happen. Downvotes really doesn't allow true free speech because you are punished for it. Yes the punishment is small but it will discourage a lot of discussion. There is a pretty big divide between the vets and newbies here. When giving suggestions, and feedback, it's expected that opinions will be different. People who disagree with you or post posts that you think are dumb are not doing it to get you angry most of the time. It is simply their opinion. Some opinions may be misinformed, some may be because the person who disagrees with them is misinformed. But it is an opinion none the less. And also an opportunity to correct the user or the person disagreeing with it. A simple thumbs down does not really do anything except encourage mob mentality.

If it was truly a personal attack or something that was misinformation, the admins will actually remove it pretty quickly.

We shouldn't all be sheep. Disagreement is good, do not take it as an offense. Friends have differences of opinion, it is normal. And a friend wouldn't simply thumbs down their friends, they would provide a little more substance than that.

Fightmastermpq

Stax the Foyer wrote:

Downvotes gave us the glorious moment when an announcement post was downvoted so far that the original post was hidden. That was one of my top 5 MPQ moments.

But yes, downvotes make the forum better, even with the risk that it'll tend towards groupthink. If there's a way to limit the amount of downvotes you can give per day, I think that would be enough regulation on the system to prevent systemic abuse.

I've also seen systems where you have to give reputation to several different people before you can give to one person twice. Both of those things would help prevent abuse.

Jarvind

I'm on the fence here - there are loads of posts I would have downvoted, but weren't in that magical margin of stupidity where it's stupid enough for me to take the time to actually write a retort, and not so stupid that I just go "wow, not even touching that" and skip it entirely.

On the other hand it probably does curb some of the ever-present negativity around here to just not even have the option.

Dayv

Jarvind wrote:

On the other hand it probably does curb some of the ever-present negativity around here to just not even have the option.

As others have said, I think that negativity just translates into snarky replies a lot of the time. Removing them certainly gets rid of certain forms of negative behavior, but I don't think it did much to improve the general forum tone. That's a longer and more labor-intensive process we all share.

Ducky

You know what I see in this thread? People looking for more ways to be negative on an already overtly negative forum.

Someone said something you don't agree with and you can't find anything objectively constructive to contribute without insinuating insults? Then just ignore the post and don't reply.

If people are getting warnings, most of the time their posts are being reported by the person they were referencing. Guess what? Downvotes could be reported, too! So you aren't going to be able to get away with it by tucking insults into a downvote, let alone the issues mods had with retaliatory downvoting and the like.

Want to make the forums a better place? Just don't post if something upsets you that much. Take it to Line or just walk away for a while. Just because you can post something doesn't mean you always should.

There is a reason that devs participate more on Reddit and on DIscord than on the forums. Bringing back downvotes would likely lessen the sparse amount of contact we do get on the forums even further.

Stax the Foyer

DuckyV wrote:

There is a reason that devs participate more on Reddit and on Discord than on the forums. Bringing back downvotes would likely lessen the sparse amount of contact we do get on the forums even further.

If we have downvotes, it'll drive them to the downvote-free paradise of Reddit.

I understand the point of your overall post, but I think that people don't replace downvotes with not interacting, they just replace downvotes with negative comments. Not at a 1:1 ratio, but enough that reasonable people can differ as to what is better.