A Year of 5*, My Analysis

Colognoisseur

It has been just over a year since 5* characters were introduced with Silver Surfer being the first. I thought this was a good time to take a look at them as characters. This is not a post about the unfairness of RNG or the way they are distributed this is just my observation after having champed the first ten 5* released over the past year. I’ll talk about them in chronological order of release.

Silver Surfer was our intro to this new world and it immediately made an impact. Right away you could learn there was one big advantage 5* were going to have, match damage. This has been true for the entire tier but match damage is what really makes any 5* a beast. I remember when in a Season preview node they let us play a loaner lvl 450 Surfer against a lvl 270 jeanbuster and it took the then top of the meta and single-handedly shredded it. Even if Surfer took damage it would just be healed by blue. The red was cheap and powerful while the black was a gimmicky fun power. Surfer just underwent a re-work because as powerful as he was when he was the only one once the tier populated he dropped. The current version where black hits for damage when the black hole resolves and you can choose the color of charged tiles on blue has made him a much stronger character plus he has some really good new partners with which to synergize with.

The next new release has been the character which has defined the 5* tier Old Man Logan (OML). There is one simple reason for this his yellow power which true heals him. When 5* were introduced it was said by the developers that even having a one cover 5* would be great. I’m not sure I agree, in general, after a year of seeing the characters but one of the reasons OML is so desired is once you get his yellow covers that healing power makes him useful even if it is just in PvE. This is why players chant “OML, OML, OML” before opening every legendary token. He is simply the best starting 5* to have and build upon. That does not mean he is the best 5*, far from it. He is a purely reactionary character who produces strike tiles and is hard to kill because of his healing. As the 5* tier has broadened out having to transform him, via his black, for him to go on the attack has become a long-term liability against other 5*’s who have the firepower to overwhelm the healing. He is everywhere in the current meta game because he was released so early and he is so good as a health pack saver as well as excelling in both PvE and PvP. But he isn’t even in the top 5 in the full tier.

The third 5* released was Phoenix. She has become the natural partner to OML and defines the top tier of play as it stands one year after 5* were created. Phoenix is full of offensive goodness. Her red places strike tiles that OML adds to. Her purple if you save up 14-21 purple ap will cause the board to massively cascade with the 5* match damage creating massive amounts of hurt. Then after all is said and done you have one maybe two reds loaded in the chamber to kill what’s left. If after everything poor phoenix happens to die she just comes back after waiting a turn or two carrying an insanely powered green aoe. Ever since she appeared Phoenix has been the character you kill last which means you still might take a shot from her red before you finally put her away. She has great synergy with both Surfer and OML which made her early versatility stand out. Even now she goes well with many of the newer characters because of her color set and abilities. Sha has retained her spot in the top half of 5* because of this.

The fourth 5* was Black Suit Spider Man (BSSM). Early on I was so unimpressed with him I ignored the tokens which gave him out because he seemed so bad as a 5*. At the time he was released that might have been true but as the tier has filled out BSSM has become one of the very best 5*. It is easy to undervalue his stun going in to his invisibility passive. It also wasn’t immediately apparent how much his reduction of strike tile damage to 1 would become so valuable. Now he is part of the way to deal with the most ubiquitous 5* team of Phoenix/OML because all of the combined strike tiles don’t lead to overwhelming damage plus if you make BSSM invisible he can only be killed if Phoenix dies and the aoe green is available or OML transforms with his yellow. If Phoenix is last to kill BSSM is first. As he starts to stun and go invisible he can wreck your plans. When I finally figured it out I had to make up for missed time getting covers. Right now he is the one 5* character I use the most because he simply shuts down Phoenix/OML and paired with many of the 5* will eventually change the overall metagame as more cover him and level him up. He is another in the top half of 5*.

The fifth 5* was Green Goblin and he is a crazy damage monster. For 8 black he does one-shot kind of damage and if the countdown survives you get to do it again. The purple allows you to choose which color you think works best for the situation. Red does direct damage, black puts out extremely strong strikes, purple steals three ap per cd, blue stuns, yellow creates huge protects, and green destroys tiles dealing damage. I generally only use red black purple and blue because they can turn things around. These cds are not the usual cd because of the yellow passive fortifies each cd which means they only have to survive the turn they are cast after that they are protected and are nearly guaranteed to go off. Meaning getting the glider back or having the pumpkin bombs do damage. Simply for his raw damage output plus versatility in his purple along with cheap casting cost makes Gobby the most dangerous 5* as it is very difficult to avoid damage from him.

Continued in the next post.

Colognoisseur

The next two 5* were released simultaneously one is one of the best and the other is hands down the worst 5*. The good one is Iron Man (IM). IM is another meta defining character. The gimmick is his red damage gets stronger with other Team IM characters as allies. In the 5* tier that’s BSSM and Surfer. Anytime the featured character in PvP is Team IM pairing IM and one of the other Team IM 5* means nine red does massive damage nearly one-shotting most characters. Then there is his blue which turns the strongest color tiles red letting the board resolve with matches. Then after that the remaining red is removed doing damage. With red being the highest damage for IM and the two chances at 5* match damage cascades this is a power which can do upwards of 60K damage regularly. If you wait until an opposing Phoenix uses her purple and follow up with IM blue it can just end the game right there. The yellow produces cds which also prevent high damage. It is not why you play IM but they do come in useful in the right situations. Even though it hasn’t become the overall current meta IM plus BSSM completely shuts down Phoenix/OML. As more players gain more covers it will begin to shift but it is a long way off. IM also goes well with a bunch of the other 5* too making him another top 5*.

Now we get to the bad Captain America is a steaming pile of 5*. He is just poorly designed and his powers don’t have any synergy with any other 5* and barely a few 4*. For a tier which is defined by having game-changing characters this kind of horrible character should never be released. Since they are re-working 5*’s Cap needs major surgery, stat. His red gets better putting out protect tiles with other Team Cap characters as allies. Except there are zero 5* Team Cap choices. How this oversight could have happened is beyond me. He would be immediately improved if the devs just changed a couple 5* to Team Cap. The yellow is an overpriced version similar to 4* Fury’s yellow and for that cost it should take out a character except it barely does anything and to commit to collecting all of that yellow only to still have the other team standing ready to bash you again is a joke. Each yellow level needs to have a specific strong effect similar to Gobby not this current weak nonsense. The blue is even more insanely designed. It needs characters which produce lots of special tiles to produce damage and burst heal. I don’t know what they were thinking Cap is a natural partner for Phoenix or OML? Except why would you sacrifice the strikes? You want a character which makes lots of protect tiles. 4* Cap and C4ge do that but why isn’t there a 5* Team Cap which does this? Then after all of this it is burst healing and not true healing. There have been few characters released which have been complete failures but Cap is and that it is a 5* makes it a felony.

Bruce Banner is the eighth 5* and it has one of the great flavored power sets. Once you have enough green a cd is placed on the board which transforms Banner to The Hulk. Once the transformation takes place Banner himself does not take damage until the Hulk is killed. Once it changes he has a moderate green aoe effect plus he has a passive where he does a damage only match at the beginning of the turn. When he is in the Banner form he has a black which produces attack tiles for both teams but the ones he produces are better. While the blue adds green to the board doing a small amount of damage if the board is light on green tiles. He is among the most fun 5* to play and once the transform cycle starts he can be a gigantic pain to get rid of. I like pairing him with Phoenix. A neat trick is if Hulk and Phoenix get killed together as the last two the game is not over because Banner comes back and then the Phoenix cd gets placed. Yeah you have to go back and kill them again. Banner is not a top half 5* but he is fun to play.

Black Bolt was another I was wrong about on first look. Although his yellow is the single worst power in 5* because if you have a Black Bolt 5* that power should be useless almost all of the time. The other two are not useless. The black passive, which places two charged tiles until there are at least four on the board and once there are four starts doing damage at the beginning of every turn. It is 5k damage every turn. You can already figure out using him with other charged tile producers just accelerates this. It is a bit of a double edged sword because the charged tiles can accelerate the opponent’s nukes too. Overall it is worth it but it can be problematic. The green used early when it just takes out the middle two rows of the board and sets up cascade potential. When it gets late and it will destroy the whole board and drain all of your ap you have to be careful about managing things to use it effectively. Another top tier 5*

Black Widow is the final 5* released this year. She is another damage machine ala Gobby plus she can take out Phoenix early because she can remove the resurrection cd. All of her powers do greater than 10k damage and have all kinds of synergies in removing cds, stealing ap, and having the damage stack up. She goes very well with BSSM and Black Bolt. Once the meta moves towards IM/BSSM then Black Bolt/ Widow is going to be the next evolution.

A couple of closing comments in the entirety of the 5* level the top five are Gobby, BSSM, IM, Black Bolt, and Phoenix. Black Widow, Surfer, and OML are just outside that group. Banner is fun and Cap is just ****.

My observations all come from the championed levels. There are other players who have different observations from the max champed perspective and hopefully he will add to this because I know he sees some of what I said differently.

Also when you are just starting out OML is still the best but as you get more covers keep in mind that there are other options and hopefully this will allow you to consider where you want to go after that.

DeNappa

Great writeup!

A note on Black Bolt yellow though; while I agree that it's probably not the greatest power out there, I think it is one power that does comply with the 'even 1 cover will help out' philosophy. Do you think it would work better as a passive, for example one like Peggy's?

Melevorn

Thanks for the analysis! I've missed your comments and ranking on the various 4*'s as they came out.

Being so very, very far from the 5* transition myself, it's an interesting read, but has little real-world applicability for me (and, I suspect, 99.9% of the player base).

Good to know what awaits, though.

jobob

Excellent writeup Colog, I agree pretty much entirely with what you said.

While there is one definite swing-and-a-miss character with 5Cap... I would say that despite all of the "OML is so OP" whining that the 5* tier is very balanced, much more so than any other tier. I will routinely use all of them in a PVE or PVP except for Cap and sometimes Banner.

I used to say BSS was the best of the bunch; I don't think that will be true as more people move away from OML/Phoenix. He was a direct counter to that meta, though still a strong character.

I still believe that in terms of pure offensive output, Phoenix is the best. And for the first 5*, OML is the most flexible, but loses value as you gain a full roster. Another big plus to OML is that his power curve ramps up more quickly; a 1-1-1 OML is more useful than a 5-3-3 Phoenix.

Like Colog, I am basing this on champed level characters (all 10 are 455-490, so similar to Colog, only about 10 levels lower than him), and not 550-level characters.

I would also put the top tier as Phx, BSSM, Bolt, GG, IM46… with OML, Natty, Surfer being next. Cap is definitely at the bottom. I’m not sure where to rank Banner.

I’ve already made an in-depth post about what is wrong with Cap and how to fix him here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=46904 So I won’t go into it. I was happy to see that one of my ideas for reworking Cap got built into the Cage character:

Change the way the "shield" part of the power works completely, and use the fortify mechanic instead to allow Cap to fortify friendly attack, strike, or protect tiles. This could either be done passively, one per turn (increase the max number of total fortified tiles as covers increase), or it could fortify multiple tiles on the board when the power is fired (number increasing as covers increase)

I am not saying it came from me… they probably came up with it independently but it was nice to see something I proposed make it into the game regardless.

The problem I have with Banner is that he doesn’t tank enough colors for me. This is going to be a problem with the 5* tier moving forward, as their overall level is going to be largely dependent on when they came out. It will be very hard to get a new release up above one of the old releases if you already have a character at 475+. If a character needs to tank for a power, that’s not going to work out well for players. There’s an easy fix for Hulk though… instead of him having 3 colors that he does 5* match damage for… reduce that to just 2 (red and green) and increase the match damage for those two by 50%. That way, he isn’t doing that much more damage on average, but he will tank those two colors almost all the time.

jobob

DeNappa wrote:

Great writeup!

A note on Black Bolt yellow though; while I agree that it's probably not the greatest power out there, I think it is one power that does comply with the 'even 1 cover will help out' philosophy. Do you think it would work better as a passive, for example one like Peggy's?

Here's the problem... if you have Bolt fully covered, you probably have most everyone else fully covered as well, so you don't need the boost. This is especially true with 5*, because most of the time the increase from 3->5 covers doesn't make a big difference (also, you would never intentionally spec Black Bolt to have 5 yellow, so it's really only 1 cover). And if he's under-leveled... well, you need to ask yourself, is it really worth bringing an incomplete character along just to sometimes buff up another characters power... or would I be better off bringing another full-strength character along? Even in the 4* tier, there are few characters who have 3 powers good enough that making them a 5-5-5 is essentially worth 2/3 spots on the team.

DeNappa

I agree that it's pretty much useless if you already have each character max covered. But that's not a situation where most players find themselves in.

The power becomes more useful the less developed your roster is. It's a niche use, and maybe kinda gimmicky, but if you happen upon a few BB covers early on I think it could be a great asset all around, but probably only if it was passive. After all, if it costs 8 AP to cast and only lasts for a few turns, you could just as well bring IM40 and collect 6 yellow for great justice.

BassMuffinFIve

I feel like Black Bolt's yellow is pretty much a non-ability. Even as a passive, you would leave it at 3 covers. It's just a wasted ability, in my opinion.

GurlBYE

It'd probably be better if it reduced the opposing teams powers by 1 each (minimum like 3)

OneLastGambit

Great write up and I pretty much agree with everything.

I speculated on the value of some 5* based almost entirely on painsstakingly finding matches against them in shield SIM since my roster is only mid 4* transition.

Maybe phoenix is better to use than fight against because I never have any trouble against her, same goes for oml (it's actually a relief when I see him since he's so passive he's no danger ) gg and spidey however are a pain in the **** to fight against. I've actively stopped fighting spidey because he's such a nuisance.

I've only had a few matches against banner so like you guys I find it hard to rank him, he's the most rare in my experience, I do however have a banner who can transform...and he's the most fun by far in my opinion.

Gobby gets top spot for me, he's insanely versatile and a real damage machine. Spidey gets second.

Though he's often touted as best oml is too passive to be dangerous for me, you guys hit the nail on the head when you said he's the most useful 5* at low covers and when you have no others.

The Bob The

Any thoughts on adding 5trange to this? Because I like him pretty well (in PVE anyway).

GrimSkald

Bolt's yellow really shines when you couple him with other incomplete 5*s. My OML is 4/2/2, my BB is 3/5/2, I do like playing them together as BB makes OML better all around.

But yeah, if I ever get to a place where I have a lot of 5*s, that will be a tiny buff to one power.

Polares

GrimSkald wrote:

Bolt's yellow really shines when you couple him with other incomplete 5*s. My OML is 4/2/2, my BB is 3/5/2, I do like playing them together as BB makes OML better all around.

But yeah, if I ever get to a place where I have a lot of 5*s, that will be a tiny buff to one power.

The problem is also that it is one of those annoying powers than when it gets fired by the AI is basically hurting your own team never helping it. Imagine that you pair him with OML, he will fire BBolts yellow before you get enough yellow to transform OML, so basically this team in AI hands is much easier to defeat. If you pair him with IM46, the same, it will fire BBolt yellow before IM's yellow most of the times. The same with Strange. Even GG's yellow, which is not that great as an active, is better than this one!

BBolt as part of a team of 5s is better as a 5/5/0 (if he could get to 450 level of course). This useless power just makes him worse :S

GrimSkald

Polares wrote:

GrimSkald wrote:

Bolt's yellow really shines when you couple him with other incomplete 5*s. My OML is 4/2/2, my BB is 3/5/2, I do like playing them together as BB makes OML better all around.

But yeah, if I ever get to a place where I have a lot of 5*s, that will be a tiny buff to one power.

The problem is also that it is one of those annoying powers than when it gets fired by the AI is basically hurting your own team never helping it. Imagine that you pair him with OML, he will fire BBolts yellow before you get enough yellow to transform OML, so basically this team in AI hands is much easier to defeat. If you pair him with IM46, the same, it will fire BBolt yellow before IM's yellow most of the times. The same with Strange. Even GG's yellow, which is not that great as an active, is better than this one!

BBolt as part of a team of 5s is better as a 5/5/0 (if he could get to 450 level of course). This useless power just makes him worse :S

True. Though I will add that the AI will sometimes not fire a power if there is a more expensive power with the same color, it is more likely to fire the cheapest power than more expensive ones.

Black Bolt is a sub average defensive character anyway as the AI doesn't prioritize charged tiles. While the charged tiles do add to the luck factor of a match (and therefore increase the chance of getting roundly toasted by a bad cascade,) the fact that the living player can prioritize them while the AI does not is definitely a detraction defensively.

Polares

GrimSkald wrote:

Black Bolt is a sub average defensive character anyway as the AI doesn't prioritize charged tiles. While the charged tiles do add to the luck factor of a match (and therefore increase the chance of getting roundly toasted by a bad cascade,) the fact that the living player can prioritize them while the AI does not is definitely a detraction defensively.

I don't know if I agree with this. There is no really good 5 in defence, when you have a team of 5s you can kill everything. Banner can be really annoying if you don't kill him fast, but he is useless in attack so almost no one uses him in PvP. Then GG, BBolt and Spidey are probably the strongest ones in defence (individually). Cascades with OML+PH teams are deadly, and they happen from time to time, but you can't really protect yourself against AI cascades (other than using Spidey, but with the AP the AI will get you might lose all the same).

It is true that AI doesn't prioritise charged tiles, but BBolt is so fast creating them that he goes to the "do 5k damage" state really fast, and then you start eating 5k every single turn. On top of that you need to be extra careful with green, because you might make a mistake and eat a 27k AoE. AI goes wide matching colors and green is not a color actively matched by OML+PH teams (it is different if you use Spidey or BBolt), so it is not that hard for the AI to get 10 in green and 5 in the other colors (specially if you use a rainbow team), so you really need to be extra careful, because a nuke like that might cost you the fight.

I am not afraid of fighting BBolt, but GG and him are the only two 5s I am hesitant to fight, because most certainly I will require health packs afterwards. The only good thing of fighting GG, BBolt and Spidey is that they all can be targeted first.

Vhailorx

Re: BB's yellow

What if it was turned into a star-lord style yellow? So every time the ai uses a power, he spawns a motivation tile that turns his team into 5/5/5s. Would that become a useful power? I suppose the problem is that even with that revision, i still don't see how you would ever spec BB anything other than 5/5/3, which means he only adds one cover level; and making your characters 5/5/4 isn't nearly as useful.

I am also eager to hear what you whales think of Strange now that you have had him for a month or so. 3* strange is a huge boon in PVE, I imagine 5* strange is the same. Does he have any PVP value at all? His blue is a great stun, but it overlaps with BSS (the 5* who benefits most from stuns).

amusingfoo1

Vhailorx wrote:

Re: BB's yellow

What if it was turned into a star-lord style yellow? So every time the ai uses a power, he spawns a motivation tile that turns his team into 5/5/5s. Would that become a useful power? I suppose the problem is that even with that revision, i still don't see how you would ever spec BB anything other than 5/5/3, which means he only adds one cover level; and making your characters 5/5/4 isn't nearly as useful.

I am also eager to hear what you whales think of Strange now that you have had him for a month or so. 3* strange is a huge boon in PVE, I imagine 5* strange is the same. Does he have any PVP value at all? His blue is a great stun, but it overlaps with BSS (the 5* who benefits most from stuns).

I've had him for rather less than a month, and I haven't tried him in PvP (from my couple experiences there, he isn't useful on D; hardly a surprise), but 5trange is an absolute monster in PvE.

Polares

Vhailorx wrote:

Re: BB's yellow

What if it was turned into a star-lord style yellow? So every time the ai uses a power, he spawns a motivation tile that turns his team into 5/5/5s. Would that become a useful power? I suppose the problem is that even with that revision, i still don't see how you would ever spec BB anything other than 5/5/3, which means he only adds one cover level; and making your characters 5/5/4 isn't nearly as useful.

BBolt yellow's as a passive, I have doubts that it would really be an improvement. On one side, not having to pay the cost is an improvement, but on the other hand, being an active and being able to decide when you want to cast it is an advantage. Ie, imagine you have a 3/5/5 PH (like most of us have), and she is close to death, and you now AI will most certainly kill her in the next few turns, you can then fire BBolt yellow to raise her green to 5 so she can come back easily.

But I have to say, his yellow is so bad, that at least as a passive you would know that AI is not going to waste yellow AP to fire it. And I agree no one would have a build different than 5/5/3 (even though black at 3 does most of the work already, so If yellow was just a bit good, a 5/3/5 build would probably be usable), so I am going to say that it would be an improvement

For me the real improvement would be if yellow would add levels. Imagine adding 50 levels to your team for six rounds. This would be an improvement.

Vhailorx

Polares wrote:

Vhailorx wrote:

Re: BB's yellow

What if it was turned into a star-lord style yellow? So every time the ai uses a power, he spawns a motivation tile that turns his team into 5/5/5s. Would that become a useful power? I suppose the problem is that even with that revision, i still don't see how you would ever spec BB anything other than 5/5/3, which means he only adds one cover level; and making your characters 5/5/4 isn't nearly as useful.

BBolt yellow's as a passive, I have doubts that it would really be an improvement. On one side, not having to pay the cost is an improvement, but on the other hand, being an active and being able to decide when you want to cast it is an advantage. Ie, imagine you have a 3/5/5 PH (like most of us have), and she is close to death, and you now AI will most certainly kill her in the next few turns, you can then fire BBolt yellow to raise her green to 5 so she can come back easily.

But I have to say, his yellow is so bad, that at least as a passive you would know that AI is not going to waste yellow AP to fire it. And I agree no one would have a build different than 5/5/3 (even though black at 3 does most of the work already, so If yellow was just a bit good, a 5/3/5 build would probably be usable), so I am going to say that it would be an improvement

For me the real improvement would be if yellow would add levels. Imagine adding 50 levels to your team for six rounds. This would be an improvement.

Or you could give yellow two effects. It could add covers to non-champed characters, or it could add champ levels to champs. That would make it a useful tool for transitioners, but would also preserve it's value for established rosters. Hell, given the strength of 5* champ levels, that would make it a near essential feature of 5* play, right?

Polares

Vhailorx wrote:

Or you could give yellow two effects. It could add covers to non-champed characters, or it could add champ levels to champs. That would make it a useful tool for transitioners, but would also preserve it's value for established rosters. Hell, given the strength of 5* champ levels, that would make it a near essential feature of 5* play, right?

Yeah I think they decided not to do it like that because it would probably be too strong as an ability. I guess they could add just 10 or 20 levels, to not make it OP, but if they would add 50 as I said in my other post, everybody would use him. This ability would probably be THE ABILITY.

This is why I doubt they will ever change this power. BBolt is already very good, so they are not going to make him even better, so yellow will stay like this forever and ever.

PS: Adding 50 levels would be much easier to any level of play than adding powers. Even for 4 or 3 rosters, adding some extra levels to those would be big. Even for not champed chars adding levels would make them stronger.

Vhailorx

Polares wrote:

PS: Adding 50 levels would be much easier to any level of play than adding powers. Even for 4 or 3 rosters, adding some extra levels to those would be big. Even for not champed chars adding levels would make them stronger.

But for everyone other than 5*s, covers matter much more than levels. Adding 50 levels to a 3/3/3 4* @150 is much less useful than adding some cover levels (at least insofar as ability strength. the extra health from levels would be nice).

But I agree that the exponential curve on champ levels, especially for 5*s, means that adding 50 champ levels would be too powerful. Also, would it make 550s into 600s? if so, I think the game would need to create a scaling curve for 550-->600 since I don't think the current game could support player levels above 550.