New Changes to PVP and Clearnance Levels Are Fair

dsds

I think the new changes to PVP are fair. Disclaimer, I didn't hit 1200. Not even close. But I did hit 900pts. I didn't expect to hit 1200pts anyway.

I think this new pvp is fair because the rewards sorta line up with pve now. In the past, i would only be able get pve rewards and it was impossible to get pvp rewards. Then there are the people who would go pvp only because if you knew how to play the system, that was the fastest way you got your rewards (or your 25cp). With the new changes, I think that's more fair now because at the very least, you can get the 10cp from PVP and doing two events is more in line with the length of a pve event. Don't get me wrong, if you can hit the 1200 mark, you will advance much faster (if you have the roster strength to get to 1200) But for a middle player like me, the new system is more doable and evens out the gap in rewards between pve and pvp.

GrumpySmurf1002

Disclaimer: I've gotten 1200+ in both events and top 5 in both as well (CL6), probably the first time I've done that ever.

I agree that the 575 CP is a great change for progression, but it could've as easily been implemented without the defense change. I'm not sure one has anything to do with the other.

What this defensive change has reminded me of is the massive MMR change they made back in Season 10. That was about the closest I've come to quitting the game, as it made PvP just brutal to play if you were behind in transitioning. No different than what lots said would happen. There's a reason there's a whole lot of threads complaining about PvP right now, and it's not just that everyone is a bunch of whiners.

They did make corrections back then to ease up the pain (introduction of 75 point matches, changed defensive losses based on 1000 instead of 800). They'll likely make more changes soon. The interim is still really demoralizing.

'Fair' at the expense of 'fun' is really taxing.

wymtime

I agree with grumpy. I have been over 1200 both events and top 10 in CL7. The one thing about the new PVP is the 1200 player will keep moving farther and farther away from the 900 scoring player. Right now 2 buffed championed 4* can get you to 1200 a couple of shields while max championed 5* can get to over 1200 with 1 or 2 depending on how lucky they get with matches. The gap between these players will eventually widen. My concern is I don't know what D3 wants PVP to be. PVP is the fastest way to progress, has the best rewards, but the majority of players have rosters better suited to do well in PVE and feel they cannot reach the heights of PVP.

The more PVP is a 5* ticket to progress he less players will play PVP and that is sad because they are faster events, and can match you up with rosters similar to yours and you don't have to worry about the insane grinding of PVE.

I hope tweets happen and PVP can be great again.

dsds

I would agree that the point difference is bigger between the 4* and 5* player. However I don't think that's a symptom of pvp. This is more a symptom of 5* characters being much more stronger than any other tier. The gap in power between a 4* and a 5* is reflected in the gap in points. So technically I don't think you can fix pvp, if you don't address the huge disparity in power between 4* and 5* characters.

The Herald

As a 3* player, who progressed effectively the first time last season, I am now screwed.

I now get stuck about 800 points. Not even 850. Juuuuust below advancing my roster.

Yeah, it's SUPER FAIR if you already got yours. Screw everyone else until the end of time, right?

Cylaali

well i guess that settles that. debate over. dsds said that it's fair. let's move along guys.

dsds

The Herald wrote:

As a 3* player, who progressed effectively the first time last season, I am now screwed.

I now get stuck about 800 points. Not even 850. Juuuuust below advancing my roster.

Yeah, it's SUPER FAIR if you already got yours. Screw everyone else until the end of time, right?

You are not screwed, you just got brought back down to level everyone else is at. This is the game is intended design. Besides 800 gets you a luke cage cover which gets you are 4* at level 183.

I didn't get mine? My roster is pretty close to yours. I just think it's fair now because everyone's at the same level. Your skill matters now. Instead of like before where you can have no skill, as long as you find those cupcakes, you can get your 1000-1300. No effort, no skill needed to eat cupcakes. Just the right time and know the right people is all that is required.

tiomono

The Herald wrote:

As a 3* player, who progressed effectively the first time last season, I am now screwed.

I now get stuck about 800 points. Not even 850. Juuuuust below advancing my roster.

Yeah, it's SUPER FAIR if you already got yours. Screw everyone else until the end of time, right?

I'm solidly starting my 4 star transition. I have every 3 star champed and only 2 4 stars cover maxed.

The 10 cp at 575 is a huge boon to advancing my roster. With the time and effort I was able and willing to put into the game I could never hit 1000 let alone the 1300 and getting good top 100 was a struggle.

So for me pvp went from Yay another 2 star or maybe a 3 if things went well. To a guaranteed 4 every 2 events. If that's not progression I must not understand the game.

The only thing I do not like with the changes is no 3 star for top 100. I have no idea why they changed that.

TetsujinOni

dsds wrote:

The Herald wrote:

As a 3* player, who progressed effectively the first time last season, I am now screwed.

I now get stuck about 800 points. Not even 850. Juuuuust below advancing my roster.

Yeah, it's SUPER FAIR if you already got yours. Screw everyone else until the end of time, right?

You are not screwed, you just got brought back down to level everyone else is at. This is the game is intended design. Besides 800 gets you a luke cage cover which gets you are 4* at level 183.

I didn't get mine? My roster is pretty close to yours. I just think it's fair now because everyone's at the same level. Your skill matters now. Instead of like before where you can have no skill, as long as you find those cupcakes, you can get your 1000-1300. No effort, no skill needed to eat cupcakes. Just the right time and know the right people is all that is required.

No, it's not fair. it's abusive of my time to do ANYTHING to make the game take up any more of my day. I had hit a stride of "fun progress and contribution to my alliance" through aggressive spending (baby cetacean, as it were), and that rug has been ripped out. Calling that fair is telling me to walk away from your toy because your notion of "fair play"is offended by .... other people making progress by moving crystals on their devices in a fashion not to your liking.

Yes, I'm salty about this. I hope the rollout of SCL>7 lets me get back to having fun with the alliance I lucked into, rather than finishes telling me to find the door. I'm hopeful that rollout is before I have to choose whether to pull the trigger on my next VIP reup.

like1tiger

dsds wrote:

The Herald wrote:

As a 3* player, who progressed effectively the first time last season, I am now screwed.

I now get stuck about 800 points. Not even 850. Juuuuust below advancing my roster.

Yeah, it's SUPER FAIR if you already got yours. Screw everyone else until the end of time, right?

You are not screwed, you just got brought back down to level everyone else is at. This is the game is intended design. Besides 800 gets you a luke cage cover which gets you are 4* at level 183.

I didn't get mine? My roster is pretty close to yours. I just think it's fair now because everyone's at the same level. Your skill matters now. Instead of like before where you can have no skill, as long as you find those cupcakes, you can get your 1000-1300. No effort, no skill needed to eat cupcakes. Just the right time and know the right people is all that is required.

How is it skill? and it doesn't matter how skilled you are if you have a 3 star roster you are not progressing anywhere no matter how skilled you are. A 3 star cover does not help me at all transition into 4 star land. You know what helps... the 25cp and the 4 star cover that e now cannot get.
You lose more points then you can gain and the only way to get any points is to fight rosters much higher then your own while getting smashed down every time you get up. its a joke. The big boys get bigger and we sit and watch and that's totality fair.
The whole system has nothing to do with skill so don't talk like it does.

Meander

Here's the problem with the pve comparison. You can hit max pve rewards with minimal effort and no grinding. Meanwhile, in pvp, people have had the wool pulled over their eyes to where they say "oh I got 950 and t25, that's better than ever!". Here's a little secret- no one advances their roster on 3*. You advance from cp. And many of those saying the system is improved have never gone for cp. The current pvp environment is akin to if you could hit all but the last reward in pve, but to get the cp you had to grind carnage+2x feeder about 7 times, while your points randomly decrease. Yes, some people would be able to do it, but many who previously could under the old pve environment would feel pretty frustrated. Instead of saying "I think it's great in my bubble" try looking at what is occurring holistically. People saying they're finishing higher with lower scores. That points to decreased play. Not good.

Edit-meant Carnage

Bowgentle

Another of the same threads.

"PVP is much better now!" from everyone who never got 1300 before.
"PVP sucks" from everyone who got 1300 before but can't now.
"Nothing changed, but my placement has improved!" from 5* rosters who got max prog before and are getting it now.

Time will tell via prog reward changes if that's what the devs intended - if we see lowered points for the now 1200 reward then yes, this wasn't intended.
If not - well, you have your answer too.

Since the vast majority of players falls into the "never 1300" camp chances are good that nothing much will change, only the community will come up with new ways to bake soon (as it always does).

Meanwhile, it sucks to be a transitioner in PVP at any level. Mission accomplished.

Huatimus

Bowgentle wrote:

Another of the same threads.

"PVP is much better now!" from everyone who never got 1300 before.
"PVP sucks" from everyone who got 1300 before but can't now.
"Nothing changed, but my placement has improved!" from 5* rosters who got max prog before and are getting it now.

Time will tell via prog reward changes if that's what the devs intended - if we see lowered points for the now 1200 reward then yes, this wasn't intended.
If not - well, you have your answer too.

Since the vast majority of players falls into the "never 1300" camp chances are good that nothing much will change, only the community will come up with new ways to bake soon (as it always does).

Meanwhile, it sucks to be a transitioner in PVP at any level. Mission accomplished.

I don't have a 5* roster, unless a level 435 OML counts as a 5* roster. I used to hit 1300 and now I can still easily hit 1200. My placement has improved but something else has certainly changed. There's less points all around, and maybe because of that, the targets I am offered are much lower level rosters with low points. I actually end up hitting more people more often, and these are much weaker rosters, and it feels like I am bullying them. If I were on the receiving end, it'd be incredibly frustrating and demoralizing. If enough 4* rosters ''give up'' and settle for 900 and call it a day, there'll be even less points to go around, perpetuating this vicious cycle.

For those who used to hit 1300 but cant hit 1200, PVP sucks.

For those who never aimed for 1300 in the first place, PVP is much better now! However, do these rosters intend to stay at 3* rosters forever? Going forward, if they want to improve their roster, do they magically leapfrog to the end game? I highly doubt that, and once they hit the next phase, PVP is going to suck for them.

In conclusion, it actually sucks or is going to suck for almost everybody, which kind of makes it fair for everybody?

The Herald

Just to interject about my implied lack of skill...

I spent the Cage event beating Champion 4*s when I have none, and stalled out because teams with Champion 4*s would steamroller me for more points than I could make.

I don't get how you define "skill" in this instance. So "skill" is people who have already progressed get to smash me easily and I now have to get stonewalled in PvP while they keep progressing and I don't?

If skill was rewarded I would get more points for a beating a team with double my levels, and a team beating me easily because of that would get less points for the easy match.

It's not "skill". The haves get more, the have-nots struggle to stay the same distance away, not even to catch up!

Edit: autocorrupt problems

MrCrowley

dsds wrote:

I think the new changes to PVP are fair. Disclaimer, I didn't hit 1200. Not even close. But I did hit 900pts. I didn't expect to hit 1200pts anyway.

I think this new pvp is fair because the rewards sorta line up with pve now. In the past, i would only be able get pve rewards and it was impossible to get pvp rewards. Then there are the people who would go pvp only because if you knew how to play the system, that was the fastest way you got your rewards (or your 25cp). With the new changes, I think that's more fair now because at the very least, you can get the 10cp from PVP and doing two events is more in line with the length of a pve event. Don't get me wrong, if you can hit the 1200 mark, you will advance much faster (if you have the roster strength to get to 1200) But for a middle player like me, the new system is more doable and evens out the gap in rewards between pve and pvp.

Complete disagreement from me.

Many people would not play PVE ever if we could avoid it. If you make PVP impossible to do progress in at a good pace, it means the game will be boring enough to think about quitting.

PVE makes it possible to progress reliably IF you have time to grind properly. PVP allows more freedom in when to play in my experience. I can deal with PVP schedule, but for most PVE events I dont even bother trying for max progress. Maybe I could do some if I am on vacation, but not during normal working weeks.

MrCrowley

Huatimus wrote:

Bowgentle wrote:

Another of the same threads.

"PVP is much better now!" from everyone who never got 1300 before.
"PVP sucks" from everyone who got 1300 before but can't now.
"Nothing changed, but my placement has improved!" from 5* rosters who got max prog before and are getting it now.

Time will tell via prog reward changes if that's what the devs intended - if we see lowered points for the now 1200 reward then yes, this wasn't intended.
If not - well, you have your answer too.

Since the vast majority of players falls into the "never 1300" camp chances are good that nothing much will change, only the community will come up with new ways to bake soon (as it always does).

Meanwhile, it sucks to be a transitioner in PVP at any level. Mission accomplished.

I don't have a 5* roster, unless a level 435 OML counts as a 5* roster. I used to hit 1300 and now I can still easily hit 1200. My placement has improved but something else has certainly changed. There's less points all around, and maybe because of that, the targets I am offered are much lower level rosters with low points. I actually end up hitting more people more often, and these are much weaker rosters, and it feels like I am bullying them. If I were on the receiving end, it'd be incredibly frustrating and demoralizing. If enough 4* rosters ''give up'' and settle for 900 and call it a day, there'll be even less points to go around, perpetuating this vicious cycle.

For those who used to hit 1300 but cant hit 1200, PVP sucks.

For those who never aimed for 1300 in the first place, PVP is much better now! However, do these rosters intend to stay at 3* rosters forever? Going forward, if they want to improve their roster, do they magically leapfrog to the end game? I highly doubt that, and once they hit the next phase, PVP is going to suck for them.

In conclusion, it actually sucks or is going to suck for almost everybody, which kind of makes it fair for everybody?

Smart thoughts.
Some claim that cc-era gave progress that was never meant to be. However, I blame the people who underperformed then for having progressed too slowly - they were never meant to progress so slow really, in proportion to the other players.

Progress speed is way too slow if you cant reach 25cp and there is nothing that will take the top players from sitting at the top, preventing us from reaching that 25cp even later. Nothing will add the score to the PVP pyramid. We can expect to sit below 900 because those top players progress faster than us who have broken into 4s barely - why would we catch up? A much better concept would be to have a mutually exclusive separate event for 4s and 5s only, so that the top of the normal PVP would be for those who actually need the cp and 4s covers.

nigelregal

I'm a 4* player and i'm getting above 1200 points in new system. The only way I am doing that is by using cupcakes made by 5* people. Nothing has changed for me but now the cupcakes have champion 5* in them so instead of hitting 3 per hop quickly I can hit 1 or 2 if i'm fast and a 3rd if I use whales TU. The new system just costs me more HP to get to same levels as before. In the past I have on many occasions climbed to 1300 points without a shield or finding a cupcake. Just finding matches that were high point value that allowed me to progress. Now once I got to a certain point every match was less than 7 points so impossible to progress besides shielding for 24 hours and seeing if later on others are higher in points and I can climb again. The only way I can see points that are higher than 8 is by a champion 5* roster putting out a cupcake.

I am going to try playing in last 12 hours or so of an event instead of more early on to see if I can get more points but people in 3* and early 4* land I am going to hit over and over and they are ones complaining on here about how they can't get to 900 points.

The Bob The

I was fortunate enough to finish covering the great majority of my 4*s before the change, so I can reliably hit 900 and be done; between this and cl7 in PVE, 4* land is no problem.

I am unfortunate in that making a 5* transition seems unrealistic - my major LT wells are tapped until I get my 3*s over 223, and the CP opportunities seem fewer. Still, maxing and playing with champed 4*s is fun, so I've got that for a while. It'd be nice to see 5*s added to 4* champ rewards though - aren't there enough at this point?

That gulf between me and they makes me sad. I used ccs and don't need them now with my current playstyle. I'm unhappy, though, to see the ladder pulled up after me.

broll

The Herald wrote:

As a 3* player, who progressed effectively the first time last season, I am now screwed.

I now get stuck about 800 points. Not even 850. Juuuuust below advancing my roster.

Yeah, it's SUPER FAIR if you already got yours. Screw everyone else until the end of time, right?

Similarly I'm a 3* player who generally hasn't done much PvP other than the Simulator or occasional attempts at sniping because low level roster PvP is ridiculous. I gave it a try this time around and had about the same experience as above. I was progressing really smoothly and like yeah this might be doable. The second I got within range of 900, which was what I was hoping for, I started getting crushed for 100+ points in between fights.

So I guess I'm still not going to play PvP until they make it truly worth while for low level rosters. Clearance Levels will be a huge missed opportunity IMO if they never make it so that you MMR only matches you with people in the same CL. I would gladly play down in CL5 or CL6 to actually have a shot at it. I just want a fair chance, that's all, but since I started 2.5 years behind many I'll never catch up and have that chance so I may as well just remove the PvP tap from my game.

madsalad

The gap from 1000 to 1200 is relatively just as bad as the old gap from 1000 to 1300, as there are now less points in the slice with which to complete your objective. During 3* Luke Cage PVP 3 times I tried to make the jump from 1100 to 1200 and each time I got smacked back down to under 1000, including the last time within the last 7 minutes of the PVP. I was at 1100+ and lined up two nodes worth enough to get me over 1200. During the 2nd battle I was hit for 200+ points. I was knocked down from 11 to 21 (which placement-wise is the same rewards; 10-25).

I have a 420 OML and a 405 Phoenix to play along with the required 3*. It doesn't matter. Champed 5*s just walk all over me when the choose to anyway. Maybe I was playing at the wrong times, but I did try to stay off of the 11, 8, 3 hours intervals prior to the end of the slice. Maybe I was in the wrong slice (S1) but I usually play S1 on the PVP that ends on Tuesday/Wednesday.

Also, under the old system I hit 1k with ease. I've only hit 1.3k a handful of times.

I think some more tweaking is required.

simonsez

madsalad wrote:

The gap from 1000 to 1200 is relatively just as bad as the old gap from 1000 to 1300

I think some more tweaking is required.

More tweaking? The devs weren't looking to make things easier. They clearly wanted to make it harder. So if you're finding it "relatively just as bad", that sounds like the best case scenario.