Saheeli Rai Challenge is Back!

majincob

I decided to make a new ranty post about this as I consider this issue to be actually dangerous to the health of this game that I love so much.

I'm also going to do something which I don't normally do and toot my own horn a bit. I apologize in advance if you find it gauche.

In case you were unaware, I am the coalition leader for GoblinPile, the #1 coalition in events since they started tracking that a few weeks ago. I am also the founder of the Coalition Alliance and have a very wide social network of top players.

I want to make it clear that I personally have no problem with re-releasing the "exclusive" planeswalker even though a good deal of hype was made about how it would be unavailable for a long time and the fact that the 3 day event was grueling and stressful.

There were about 3 people who didn't get her in GoblinPile due to life circumstances, bugs, and the Saheeli deck which was terribly situated relative to the current metagame. I really am glad those guys have another two chances to get it because I know they will.

What I have a problem with is that these repeat events will have Coalition rewards. It may seem odd to you that as the #1 coalition I'd have a problem with getting even more mythics, but that is the rub. There are two main factors.

1. Burnout. The original Saheeli event was too long and most of my coalition felt it. Now we have overlapping events? It's going to be even more stressful and taxing. This is not fun.

2. Social Pressure. As a coalition we want to be in the top 2 so we can keep expanding our mythic collections as that is the most efficient way to do so in the game. However when we take another 20 Saheeli prize spots away from the rest of the playerbase people are going to be pissed. And it's not fun to have a bunch of people pissed off at you.

So many people will say "just don't do it if it isn't fun" but that breaks a fundamental of good game design. I'd like to quote Mark Rosewater, Lead Designer of Magic: the Gathering:

Lesson #13: Make the fun part also the correct strategy to win

It's not the players' job to find the fun. It is your job as the game designer to put the fun where the players can't help but find it. When the players sit down to play a game, there's an implied promise from the game designer that if they do what the game tells them to do, it will be fun. So most players will do whatever the game tells them to do to achieve the desired goal (usually win), even if that thing isn't fun. When the game is done, if the players didn't enjoy themselves, they will blame the game—and rightfully so!

It's your job as a game designer to make sure that what it takes to succeed at your game is the very thing that makes the game fun. Fun cannot be tangential; it has to be the core component of your game experience. I can't stress this enough. You can't hide the fun and expect your players to hunt for it. That's not their job. It's your job as a game designer to lead the players to the fun. source

The correct strategy to "win" the game is to participate in every coalition event, no matter how much flack you get and no matter how much it becomes a grind. People will do it because they want to win. And after they've won they will see that they didn't have fun and move on. These are the people who get heavily into the game and spend the most money, the people you want to retain most of all.

Bottom line is that the coalition rewards need to be removed because it is counter-productive to the long term health of the game and counter-productive to the stated goals for having them in the first place.

I will not ask any of my coalition or alliance members to sit out or throw games, nor I will not sit out or throw games as long as coalition rewards incentivize us to play for the top.

Nitymp

Hear hear!! I will continue to aim for top 25, even if that means someone who doesn't have her will miss out again.

Why? Well because I don't want to lose out on the coalition points and I refuse to let people have an easier time of getting her (by throwing matches) than I did in the original event.

madwren

I'm one of the people that didn't get Saheeli Rai. My screen said 25th, I went to claim the reward, and the app crashed. As soon as I saw the "Something went wrong" message, I knew what would happen, and yep--when I reloaded the game, I was 26th--no Rai for me. Support was, of course unhelpful.

Even though I stand to benefit from these extra chances to win Saheeli, I think it's a disservice to those who competed in an overlong, very grindy event for a reward that was promised to be a one-time affair. Yes, I know promises are worth the paper they're printed on, but still--I don't blame anyone for being upset that the uniqueness of their prize is being diluted by making it available to additional scores of people.

There's going to be a lot of pressure from people to let those who don't have Saheeli win, and for those who already have her to step down and not participate. I think pressuring people either way is ridiculous. I'm already tired of seeing insults regarding current Rai owners wanting to compete. It isn't selfish to want to retain a unique advantage in the game. It is selfish, however, to expect others to kowtow to your personal ideals.

Good luck to everyone competing in the event.

Morphis

I agree totally.

I will feel bad for people that don't get saheeli if I manage to(as I usually do) get in the top position.
I could have even decided to skip the event since the prize is not worth the effort(I already own her).

If that mean putting my coalition at risk of not getting the prize though, I am sorry, but I will try my best as with all events.

I also really loved the quoted message.
Should be considered a golden rule not only for this game or tcg games, but for every video game

Gandhi

This is a very good point. I would ask, for the individuals who already do have Saheeli Rai, to maybe take a small step back from the event. I don't mean to not participate, but maybe come to the end of the event, instead of getting that first or second spot, just take 15th or 20th. For me, I was so excited for last event, and I did very well and put a lot of time into it. I got 8th place when I needed to be in at least 5th place to get Saheeli..Pretty disappointing. TLDR: I think if you already have Saheeli, don't go for top spots. Leave them open for people who don't have that planeswalker and are investing a lot of time into getting her.

Xefroziner

So here's my two cents. I love the basic concept of this game. I like match 3 games. I occasionally play bejeweled. But I love card strategy games. I started with a Yu Gi Oh game on ps1 and have played too many ever since. I dislike grinding in games. My time is simply too valuable. I have a decent job and a real life. I care about my coalition but have to let them down a bit due to my life situation. The basic concept of this game is wonderful but the grinding is starting to ruin it for me. I grind enough to earn a paycheck. Something major needs to change so this is a great game not a grinding game. Please get busy developers.

aesith

As someone making a run at top 25 in Platinum to win her, I have ZERO issue with whoever is Platinum from the 17 of 20 GoblinPile, taking a break this event.

Love, Carl (regardless, Deadapult will continue trying to finish top 10 in any event)

Feagul

I guess that's karma for top-loading GoblinPile over BlackVise?

Overlapping events with coalition rewards are definitely a bad idea, but are you really surprised that there was no consideration given to this?

zaann85

Remove rewards from all events or just that one? Whats the point of a coalition if you arent reaping rewards. Coalition rewards are what have built up the community you have brought together.

majincob

zaann85 wrote:

Remove rewards from all events or just that one? Whats the point of a coalition if you arent reaping rewards. Coalition rewards are what have built up the community you have brought together.

Remove coalition rewards from just the repeat Saheeli Rai events. That removes the incentive for people who already have Saheeli from taking the top spots again.

Feagul

majincob wrote:

zaann85 wrote:

Remove rewards from all events or just that one? Whats the point of a coalition if you arent reaping rewards. Coalition rewards are what have built up the community you have brought together.

Remove coalition rewards from just the repeat Saheeli Rai events. That removes the incentive for people who already have Saheeli from taking the top spots again.

No it doesn't--at least not entirely. You still get a decent payday in crystals for top-5 and top-25. Decent enough when compared to the work/timing for crystals from Quick Battles that I'd rather just do the events myself.

Tilikum

She's probably gonna be available for 750 along with a whole slew of bugged out new cards in less than a month.
More power to you guys though. I bet the devs didn't even consider people re-winning her.

Theros

let make her available to everyone to purchase. I'm not in favor of "event exclusive" PWs and cards. This will only infuriate ppl that can't legitimately compete to get her. The big majority that are not competitive or casual players may not like it either.

shteev

Also, yknow, some of us want to play the game. QB doesn't give you nearly so many tough matches as Platinum Tier in the events.

Irgy

As I said in the other thread, just roll the prize on to someone eligible for it.

Skipping coalition points would be fine too, though it then leaves it up to people's conscience (people on the internet at that!)

Of course either of these will require implementation, and therefore updates, and therefore it's probably too late already. But maybe it's not too late for the next iteration.

Pqmtg-

This is just stupid.

If you don't want to burn out, don't play. Wow you won't get a mythic this time if you sit out? You already get 2 a week as a coalition. How about giving other coalitions a chance while we're all talking about being generous so everyone gets saheeli. Maybe you can utilise your wide network of top players and get them to sit out every other week.

Your rant is basically a first world problem one, MtGPQ edition.

majincob

Pqmtg- wrote:

This is just stupid.

If you don't want to burn out, don't play. Wow you won't get a mythic this time if you sit out? You already get 2 a week as a coalition. How about giving other coalitions a chance while we're all talking about being generous so everyone gets saheeli. Maybe you can utilise your wide network of top players and get them to sit out every other week.

Your rant is basically a first world problem one, MtGPQ edition.

How about not calling my argument stupid without a counterargument that I haven't already addressed in the original post? Especially since no-one knows who you are. I've not seen any Pqmtg's on the leaderboards, whereas you know who I am. Anyone in the Alliance can get my real name, and my ID on the forums is my in-game ID.

Perhaps you did not carefully read my post. Here is the cliff notes quote:

...most players will do whatever the game tells them to do to achieve the desired goal (usually win), even if that thing isn't fun. When the game is done, if the players didn't enjoy themselves, they will blame the game—and rightfully so!

I am actually trying to give a reasoned, thought out critique about how I and the other people in my group feel about this arrangement. I have also proposed a relatively simple to implement solution: remove coalition rewards from Saheeli Rai.

The marketing people know that they don't want players getting used to "sitting out" on game play because they lose engagement and ultimately leave the game taking their wallets with them. That's why they have events nearly every day and daily log in rewards with monthly fat packs and free packs 3 times a day. They need to keep people engaged but not have it become onerous. Once the wallets are gone, the game shuts down, and I don't want to see that happen.

Pqmtg-

majincob wrote:

Pqmtg- wrote:

This is just stupid.

If you don't want to burn out, don't play. Wow you won't get a mythic this time if you sit out? You already get 2 a week as a coalition. How about giving other coalitions a chance while we're all talking about being generous so everyone gets saheeli. Maybe you can utilise your wide network of top players and get them to sit out every other week.

Your rant is basically a first world problem one, MtGPQ edition.

How about not calling my argument stupid without a counterargument that I haven't already addressed in the original post? Especially since no-one knows who you are. I've not seen any Pqmtg's on the leaderboards, whereas you know who I am. Anyone in the Alliance can get my real name, and my ID on the forums is my in-game ID.

Perhaps you did not carefully read my post. Here is the cliff notes quote:

...most players will do whatever the game tells them to do to achieve the desired goal (usually win), even if that thing isn't fun. When the game is done, if the players didn't enjoy themselves, they will blame the game—and rightfully so!

I am actually trying to give a reasoned, thought out critique about how I and the other people in my group feel about this arrangement. I have also proposed a relatively simple to implement solution: remove coalition rewards from Saheeli Rai.

The marketing people know that they don't want players getting used to "sitting out" on game play because they lose engagement and ultimately leave the game taking their wallets with them. That's why they have events nearly every day and daily log in rewards with monthly fat packs and free packs 3 times a day. They need to keep people engaged but not have it become onerous. Once the wallets are gone, the game shuts down, and I don't want to see that happen.

You're the guy who set the rules that everyone has to play every event, then complain that the timing of the events will make your rules hard to follow.

There's no need to handle players with kid gloves and graciously take a dive for events so others can get saheeli. We're not 5 anymore and people can live with not getting a medal for participation. Like I said... You might as well harness your huge network and ensure everyone rotates in getting a mythic if that were the goal. Let me assure you that it's not fun to work as hard as your members and not get a mythic for free either. Well... It's probably going to be more fun once coalition chats come on... But I have a suspicion everyone getting a mythic would be more fun for some reason.

I thought my counterarguement was obvious. Play if you want to, sit out if you don't. Don't demand the game changes to fit your own arbitrary rules. I'm going full throttle for saheeli events. That's not being mean. I just like to play events.

I mean come on. You can just tell your coalition to stand down this event if you wanted to. That would be the same as this event not getting any coalition points. You make the coalition rules. The only reason you wouldn't do that would be because you don't want other coalitions to get a mythic during your voluntary hiatus. Then why are we even discussing ways to allow more people to get saheeli if that's your mindset?

majincob

Pqmtg- wrote:

You're the guy who set the rules that everyone has to play every event, then complain that the timing of the events will make your rules hard to follow.

There's no need to handle players with kid gloves and graciously take a dive for events so others can get saheeli. We're not 5 anymore and people can live with not getting a medal for participation. Like I said... You might as well harness your huge network and ensure everyone rotates in getting a mythic if that were the goal. Let me assure you that it's not fun to work as hard as your members and not get a mythic for free either. Well... It's probably going to be more fun once coalition chats come on... But I have a suspicion everyone getting a mythic would be more fun for some reason.

I thought my counterarguement was obvious. Play if you want to, sit out if you don't. Don't demand the game changes to fit your own arbitrary rules. I'm going full throttle for saheeli events. That's not being mean. I just like to play events.

I mean come on. You can just tell your coalition to stand down this event if you wanted to. That would be the same as this event not getting any coalition points. You make the coalition rules. The only reason you wouldn't do that would be because you don't want other coalitions to get a mythic during your voluntary hiatus. Then why are we even discussing ways to allow more people to get saheeli if that's your mindset?

I think you have me confused with a dictator. I welcome you to read our Alliance Charter and Bill of Rights. I don't make anyone do anything. I don't have any real control over the coalitions as they are the purview of their own leaders. As for GoblinPile we discuss things and come to consensus if we need to all agree on something.

As a coalition we (GoblinPile) unarguably want to get all the mythics that we can and we will pursue that goal. I would just prefer that we could do so without hurting other players chances to get a great planeswalker.

Also chatting with your coalition is great fun. We (as an alliance) happen to use slack which seems to work well for us. If anyone would like to join the slack group message me your e-mail and I'll send you an invite. It's usually pretty active with over 230 people signed up already.

span_argoman

I do believe majincob is trying to propose a change that allows him to continue to maintain the competitive ideals of his coalition without being an <insert colloquialism for an unreasonable fellow> to the people who do not yet have Saheeli.

Of course he is perfectly entitled to continue competing in the event if the developers do not change anything and he has already stated his intention to do so.

The onus should be on the developers to avoid such a situation from happening through proper game design.

As a player without Saheeli, I do wish they would stand down. But as a player with a competitive streak, I think it foolish to expect them to stand down should the coalition rewards continue to be enabled in the Saheeli event.

Good luck to all.

Pqmtg-

majincob wrote:

Pqmtg- wrote:

You're the guy who set the rules that everyone has to play every event, then complain that the timing of the events will make your rules hard to follow.

There's no need to handle players with kid gloves and graciously take a dive for events so others can get saheeli. We're not 5 anymore and people can live with not getting a medal for participation. Like I said... You might as well harness your huge network and ensure everyone rotates in getting a mythic if that were the goal. Let me assure you that it's not fun to work as hard as your members and not get a mythic for free either. Well... It's probably going to be more fun once coalition chats come on... But I have a suspicion everyone getting a mythic would be more fun for some reason.

I thought my counterarguement was obvious. Play if you want to, sit out if you don't. Don't demand the game changes to fit your own arbitrary rules. I'm going full throttle for saheeli events. That's not being mean. I just like to play events.

I mean come on. You can just tell your coalition to stand down this event if you wanted to. That would be the same as this event not getting any coalition points. You make the coalition rules. The only reason you wouldn't do that would be because you don't want other coalitions to get a mythic during your voluntary hiatus. Then why are we even discussing ways to allow more people to get saheeli if that's your mindset?

I think you have me confused with a dictator. I welcome you to read our Alliance Charter and Bill of Rights. I don't make anyone do anything. I don't have any real control over the coalitions as they are the purview of their own leaders. As for GoblinPile we discuss things and come to consensus if we need to all agree on something.

As a coalition we (GoblinPile) unarguably want to get all the mythics that we can and we will pursue that goal. I would just prefer that we could do so without hurting other players chances to get a great planeswalker.

Also chatting with your coalition is great fun. We (as an alliance) happen to use slack which seems to work well for us. If anyone would like to join the slack group message me your e-mail and I'll send you an invite. It's usually pretty active with over 230 people signed up already.

In the quest for mythics, how is taking coalition rewards out of this different from telling your coalition to stand down for the event?

I don't think you're a dictator. I'm just not seeing consistency between your supposed goals and suggestions.