How do the players feel about the game?

jobob

OneLastGambit wrote:

Hear me out for a moment because what I'm gonna say might instantly generate an emotional response...

Is the grind:reward ratio that bad?
Is the G:R something new?

Back in the 90s I started playing an rpg game which at the start of the game saw your characters increase very rapidly...then later in the game (when you really need them to improve quickly) it becomes an endless grind of random battle encounters which progresses them by a miniscule percentage of their potential.

Even earning new equipment for characters was an endless grind of random battle encounters HOPING they drop that 1 piece of equipment I've been looking for.

I never heard anyone complain that this was a terrible system. I never heard anyone say they hated it. In fact I still hear to this day that final fantasy 7 is one of the greatest games ever made. A game that relies on a lot of the same principles as this ... Grinding for little rewards... Random prize acquistion.

So i pose those two questions again?

Is the G:R new or bad? Bad you could argue for...new you can't since every single rpg relies on this mechanic.

I'm not arguing for or against the primary progression and acquisition mechanics this game, simply asking a question.

This is a fair question, and I like the way you asked it because I think of this game as something of an RPG as well.

Yes, I think the G:R is way off, because of a few mechanics that are present in RPGs that isn't in MPQ (I don't know specifically about those RPGs, but I've played enough to speak in generalities).

1. Risk vs Reward: In RPGs, the tougher the enemies, the more XP, and the better chance for a reward. This is not reflected at all in MPQ. You get the same ISO for beating a level 1 enemy as you do when you beat a level 450 enemy. You are running the exact same PVPs and PVEs that you started as soon as you finished the tutorial. And on Day 1 you have the same chance to get end-game "epic" loot drops as on Day 1000.

2. Diminished Returns at high levels: Most RPGs I have played allow you to reach ~90% of maximum end-game power fairly quickly once you are at that point. The random drops, the hellish grind, the P2W doesn't come in until you are pushing to squeeze everything possible out of that character. So it's the min/maxers that really have to slog through it... the guys who want that one shield drop that adds +6% to your max health instead of the one you can buy from an end-game merchant that adds +5% to your health. Past that ~90% point, the gains are fairly incremental for a lot of work, and in the end the highest characters aren't usually THAT much more powerful than the field.

Contrast that to MPQ, where that extra grind past end-game level doesn't just add a little each time... it takes off exponentially. There's a bigger power gain going from lvl 474 -> 475 than going from 274 -> 275. Once you champ a 5*- no minor task in this game... you are still only at 50%! of their max strength. Their power literally doubles over the last 100 levels.

3. God Characters are Discouraged, Unnecessary, or Outright not Allowed... In MPQ they are almost necessary: In most RPGs, you pick a class, and you have choices to make along the level up path sacrificing one skill for another, but in the end you come up with a powerful character. You don't need to have a 100 in Strength, Speed, Agility, Intelligence and so on... furthermore, a lot of games cap the number of skills you can have.

Again, contrast to MPQ, where your "character" is essentially your roster. You can have (and some do) every single character at max-champ level. And doing so is necessary if you want to compete at a high level. There's no roster cap, no overall level cap, no bonuses for certain teams or playing a certain way... the mechanic becomes MAX IT ALL!

4. Everyone Isn't in the Same Arena: In an RPG, you don't see a level 10 in a level 100 area typically. You aren't fighting them in PVP, and they aren't running end-game dungeons with you. You don't have to worry about outscoring them while they fight easier enemies. Unless, of course, you are playing MPQ. It would be like letting Noobs in to end-game dungeons except they get to fight waaaay scaled down enemies, for exactly the same loot... and oh, by the way, 500 of you start at once and the first one to the end wins! Ugh.


So... good questions, and my answer to both is, in my opinion, YES. The G:R ratio is BAD. And while I won't claim that there has never been a similar example so I'm not sure that it's truly "new," it is certainly NOT the mainstream.

8punch

today i worked hard to champion my first 3 charchter. since he was poweredup in PVP. captain america. so i saved 120.000 iso to champion him.

i thought with this i would give me a bigger advantage against some other players. because they have captain america always at basic level.

how wrong i was.

instead of fighting against same teams. i fight now against captain americans same level like me, with 1 exception. the other members of their teams are all maxed out level 4, level 3 charchters. while i only have max level 2 for the rest of the charachters.

how screwed am i,you say? well i guess a lot lol. this is the first day of the event, bu i wonder how the other days will do.

SnowcaTT

8punch wrote:

today i worked hard to champion my first 3 charchter. since he was poweredup in PVP. captain america. so i saved 120.000 iso to champion him.

i thought with this i would give me a bigger advantage against some other players. because they have captain america always at basic level.

how wrong i was.

instead of fighting against same teams. i fight now against captain americans same level like me, with 1 exception. the other members of their teams are all maxed out level 4, level 3 charchters. while i only have max level 2 for the rest of the charachters.

how screwed am i,you say? well i guess a lot lol. this is the first day of the event, bu i wonder how the other days will do.

This is what I have never understood in my entire game-play time. Why is it that you constantly get hit by higher level rosters, but then when you improve your roster -you- never seem to see lower level rosters again?

I see this in every PVP that I run the seeds, then see a bunch of 3* rosters. Why is this the only time I see them? I can start a slice with 3 hours left and I never see 3*'s. I can be hit back down to practically zero points and I never again see 3* rosters. If you see them sometimes, you should be able to see them all the time.

Oh, and before folks ask why we should be able to pick on the weak....hello, all those double-champed 5*'s that constantly pick on my much weaker teams!

simonsez

SnowcaTT wrote:

This is what I have never understood in my entire game-play time. Why is it that you constantly get hit by higher level rosters, but then when you improve your roster -you- never seem to see lower level rosters again?

It's the magic of MMR... it loves to constantly show you opponents that are all just a bit better than you. Or a lot better.

I'd love it if there were a way to tell the game not to bother showing me a pair of lv 460 something 5*s, because there's no way in hell I'd ever hit those.

TxMoose

SnowcaTT wrote:

8punch wrote:

today i worked hard to champion my first 3 charchter. since he was poweredup in PVP. captain america. so i saved 120.000 iso to champion him.

i thought with this i would give me a bigger advantage against some other players. because they have captain america always at basic level.

how wrong i was.

instead of fighting against same teams. i fight now against captain americans same level like me, with 1 exception. the other members of their teams are all maxed out level 4, level 3 charchters. while i only have max level 2 for the rest of the charachters.

how screwed am i,you say? well i guess a lot lol. this is the first day of the event, bu i wonder how the other days will do.

This is what I have never understood in my entire game-play time. Why is it that you constantly get hit by higher level rosters, but then when you improve your roster -you- never seem to see lower level rosters again?

I see this in every PVP that I run the seeds, then see a bunch of 3* rosters. Why is this the only time I see them? I can start a slice with 3 hours left and I never see 3*'s. I can be hit back down to practically zero points and I never again see 3* rosters. If you see them sometimes, you should be able to see them all the time.

Oh, and before folks ask why we should be able to pick on the weak....hello, all those double-champed 5*'s that constantly pick on my much weaker teams!

as soon as I got my OML to 405 and thought things would get easier and they didn't was the day I stopped really worrying about roster progress and decided to complete my 2s and 3s. unless you're one of about 3 guys, there will be plenty of players above you where mmr will keep you being hit by people above you. 360 5*s hit 4*s, 405s hit 360s, 450s hit 405s. you NEVER get above mmr. I do kind of wish I had kept a slightly lower mmr (OML at 350 or 360 or so) to where I could still play 4* teams, but mine hasn't borked completely - I just have to use him on nearly everything. coming up, sharp dressed will be interesting to see what mmr does with locking him out.

OneLastGambit

Bowgentle wrote:

OneLastGambit wrote:

I never heard anyone complain that this was a terrible system. I never heard anyone say they hated it. In fact I still hear to this day that final fantasy 7 is one of the greatest games ever made. A game that relies on a lot of the same principles as this ... Grinding for little rewards... Random prize acquistion.

Imagine defeating Emerald Weapon after 85 hours of playtime.
It drops the Earth Harp which you can trade in for some really good rewards.

If MPQ designed FF7 your party of level 99 characters would face a level 500 Emerald Weapon with 600 Million Hitpoints instead of a level 99 version with 1 Million Hitpoints.
And it would drop a random reward, chosen from a potion, a phoenix down, 100 gil with a 0.15% chance for a hi potion.

If rewards scaled to enemy levels about 95% of the vets would stop complaining.

Point conceded. I have no arguments with this. Or the second post relating to mine, not quoting it to keep the post length down. Both excellent counter points to mine

chamber44

WEBGAS wrote:

Today a fifth member of my alliance has gone....5 veterans with over 650 days of gameplay decided to quit in the last few weeks...this should trigger an alarm bell for the Devs...but I have a bad feeling: who cares?

are you in my (former) alliance? Because the same thing has happened to us. I was one of the people who left, because I just couldn't make the relatively paltry 750 minimum in PvP's anymore (courtesy of my ... 250 4clops? my 220 Rulk? my 2 OML covers?)

SnowcaTT

simonsez wrote:

SnowcaTT wrote:

This is what I have never understood in my entire game-play time. Why is it that you constantly get hit by higher level rosters, but then when you improve your roster -you- never seem to see lower level rosters again?

It's the magic of MMR... it loves to constantly show you opponents that are all just a bit better than you. Or a lot better.

I'd love it if there were a way to tell the game not to bother showing me a pair of lv 460 something 5*s, because there's no way in hell I'd ever hit those.

I said at the time if VIP let you have a wider MMR or choose a couple (ahem, one, ahem) characters that you wouldn't see as a matchup choice....then your VIP would be a huge selling points to vets.

ClydeFrog76

SnowcaTT wrote:

I'm sure I come off as a complainer/whiner often on the forums...but it is because I -DO- care. This game is a fun game! It could be a great game! It could be a great game while the devs still get their money!

I, and many others who care about the game, try to give helpful suggestions of what players are looking for and how the game could trend. I have seen very little evidence that any of these suggestions are even acknowledged, much less taken up....but I still have hope. That hope dwindles every passing season.

100% this.

It's depressing to think how amazing the game could be if they stopped with the endless cycle of character releases and rehashed content and actually put some thought and effort into creating new and engaging ways for us to play.

I know for a fact that I - and a lot of other people here - would happily throw money at the devs if they stopped merely pandering to whales who are addicted to owning and maxing every single character as they're released. I spent in the past when I loved the game and I would again.

As a Marvel and Puzzle Quest fanboy it's frustrating to see both licences not living up to their potential.

madok

TxMoose wrote:

as soon as I got my OML to 405 and thought things would get easier and they didn't was the day I stopped really worrying about roster progress and decided to complete my 2s and 3s. unless you're one of about 3 guys, there will be plenty of players above you where mmr will keep you being hit by people above you. 360 5*s hit 4*s, 405s hit 360s, 450s hit 405s. you NEVER get above mmr. I do kind of wish I had kept a slightly lower mmr (OML at 350 or 360 or so) to where I could still play 4* teams, but mine hasn't borked completely - I just have to use him on nearly everything. coming up, sharp dressed will be interesting to see what mmr does with locking him out.

This makes me so glad I made the decision to keep Phoenix at 360 even though I have her fully covered. I just got OML to 360 as well and I like where I'm at. I can still interchange the 4*s toons I've started championing in PVE and PVP both. I'm working on my last couple of 3*s to champ and all those fully covered B and C Team 4* characters I have on my roster.

It's funny how much this game reminds me of Oblivion with how their scaling works. It was the only Elder Scrolls game I never played for that design decision. At least you had a choice though to apply a mod to remove that scaling. We don't have that choice in this game.

WEBGAS

chamber44 wrote:

WEBGAS wrote:

Today a fifth member of my alliance has gone....5 veterans with over 650 days of gameplay decided to quit in the last few weeks...this should trigger an alarm bell for the Devs...but I have a bad feeling: who cares?

are you in my (former) alliance? Because the same thing has happened to us. I was one of the people who left, because I just couldn't make the relatively paltry 750 minimum in PvP's anymore (courtesy of my ... 250 4clops? my 220 Rulk? my 2 OML covers?)

No chamber44....I don't think we ever played in the same alliance....(if chamber is also your in-game nick )

but this is exactly what I am scared about: lot of players are quitting, despite those who accused me of being a sort of NOSTRADAMUS and if the Devs don't listen to the playerbase and make some of our suggested changes, I fear that the game will slowly implode... this will be a very sad day because I loved this game

Alsmir

SnowcaTT wrote:

8punch wrote:

today i worked hard to champion my first 3 charchter. since he was poweredup in PVP. captain america. so i saved 120.000 iso to champion him.

i thought with this i would give me a bigger advantage against some other players. because they have captain america always at basic level.

how wrong i was.

instead of fighting against same teams. i fight now against captain americans same level like me, with 1 exception. the other members of their teams are all maxed out level 4, level 3 charchters. while i only have max level 2 for the rest of the charachters.

how screwed am i,you say? well i guess a lot lol. this is the first day of the event, bu i wonder how the other days will do.

This is what I have never understood in my entire game-play time. Why is it that you constantly get hit by higher level rosters, but then when you improve your roster -you- never seem to see lower level rosters again?

I see this in every PVP that I run the seeds, then see a bunch of 3* rosters. Why is this the only time I see them? I can start a slice with 3 hours left and I never see 3*'s. I can be hit back down to practically zero points and I never again see 3* rosters. If you see them sometimes, you should be able to see them all the time.

Oh, and before folks ask why we should be able to pick on the weak....hello, all those double-champed 5*'s that constantly pick on my much weaker teams!

Yup, I know that pain. I'm sitting at 4x 2* champs, in PvP I'm facing mostly people with either boosted 2* champs, or 3* champs. Latest event I did some painfull grinding. I climbed all the way to top 10. I checked the rosters off all the players above me. There were 2 guys with super noob roosters. Seriously, their top chars were single covered 4*. 50-70 skips later, I wasn't able to target them. They weren't shielded or anything.

I'm just wondering, maybe the only reason they climbed so high, was because nobody could bloody target them?

mpqr7

The matches themselves are a lot of fun. Everything else is pretty bad. You finish a very tough match and end up with 70 iso, which doesn't go far to getting the 360,000 iso you need to champion a single 4*, and then you wonder why you even bother.

After months of grinding, you luck into another OML cover, bringing it from 405 to 420. Yet now in pvp, you are facing much HARDER enemies than you've ever faced before, making the grind to 1300 exceptionally MORE difficult. You REGRET leveling up your OML, which should have been a great achievement that made you happy, but instead it makes you very SAD, knowing that you'll never hit 1300 in pvp again without wasting tons and tons of shields and health packs.

And should you get another OML cover, it will probably only get WORSE.


None of this makes any sense at all!!!

mpqq

How do I feel about the game? I feel very expendable. Vets are expendable. If you're not a whale, you're expendable. A new player who has a greater potential to spend more money can always replace vets.

• Who cares about the vets who took the time to make guides to help newer players? These guides inevitably made the game easier and more enjoyable to a lot of players; hence, these players are more likely to continue playing.
• Who cares about the players who take the time to make external resources, such as slice info, the wiki, mpq.gamependium, and etc…?
• Who cares about the alliance commanders that put in effort to foster a good community?
• Who cares about the players who points out the bugs? They are literally the playtesters. How does one release a boss battle (Galactus), character (Nova), and feature (VIP) without testing it? Easy, just do it and still get paid. Players will still come back for more.

As long as there is a sufficient cash flow, no major changes need to be made. “Oh, vets are all dried up and lifeless. Don’t worry, whales be whalin’ and a new player will replace them. Pump out the new Marvel advertisement character without testing and make sure critical boosts are in stock.” This is mobile game. You’re expendable and your opinions don’t really matter, unless you’re a whale or you’re giving a high score on one of MPQ’s surveys.

PS0: No offense to any of the developers. Only mean to criticize their practices. Then again, this is the mobile gaming industry, the scummiest of the gaming industry. So these practices are to be expected and any criticism, including this one, really has no value.

PS1: “Characters are more balanced than players realize” from PW podcast… Please, no. Not like this. I can guarantee that there are players that play a lot more than the developers. But their game knowledge is less adequate? It’s understandable that the 4* roster is incomplete so it’s too soon to judge them. But for older characters how is it balanced that certain characters have one optimal build? Some characters have poor damage/AP ratios, resulting in them being outclassed and having an undefined role. I’m okay with “You’re supposed to lose.”; however, saying that characters are balanced is something I can’t get behind.

GrumpySmurf1002

I'm still happy with the game but yeah my interest is definitely waning.

My roster is effectively on 'pause' right now. Ridiculous MMR/scaling means there's no incentive for me to level my 13 cover Surfer or 8 cover PHX until I have at least a couple others ready to go, else my 90+ slot roster becomes a 2-3 slot roster. I'm also waiting for an HP sale to start the 2* farm.

So, I'm hoarding every resource (except HP for shielding or new character slots). Non 5* tokens I've hoarded for 3+ seasons now. PvE tokens I've hoarded since they started vaults, only opening when a new character is in them.

Without roster progression (which from this point sounds like it hurts more than helps anyway), you really focus on the game, which seriously lacks content. I understand the work that goes into creating a Civil War event or Growth Industry or other 'lipstick on the PvE pig' events, but you'll never convince me it's actually new content.

PvE did make a change, which I can't say hurts the casual player, but made playing anything more than that groan inducing.

Otherwise, LRs haven't evolved, cycling the same 10 characters out of a group of 40. PvP hasn't evolved. Rewards haven't evolved, 3 year players are still getting standard tokens in daily supply. Iso costs haven't evolved to a 4* meta.

The game just kinda 'is' now. With no communication other than out of touch character releases that still talk about Starlord like he's useful, there's no other state it can really be in.

And this doesn't inspire hope:

mpqq wrote:

PS1: “Characters are more balanced than players realize” from PW podcast…

Oh boy.

Partyof5

Right now, pretty MEH.

I still play at least a couple of matches every day, but I've been finding it easier to avoid MPQ for other things lately. My roster is solid 3* I guess. I champed 9 3*, but still don't have any usable 4*, and zero 5*. I can't even enjoy opening legendary tokens or using CP because I keep getting new 4* characters that I don't have the HP to buy slots for. Slots are now 800hp for me, and I don't play enough or place high enough to generate a lot of HP. I have bought HP a few times in the past, but I'm done spending $$$ on this game until things change.

I feel like I'm being squeezed a lot in order to enjoy this game. It's a mobile game, and for the money I've already spent on it I could have bought a couple of nice console games that won't keep asking me to spend more money on to keep enjoying them. Every time I make progress that I should feel good about (collecting CP for a legendary token, pulling a 4*, or placing high enough to get a 4*), the game forces me to either play it like it's my full time job or spend a bunch of $$$ in order to enjoy the reward I just obtained.

firethorne

mpqq wrote:

PS1: “Characters are more balanced than players realize” from PW podcast… Please, no. Not like this. I can guarantee that there are players that play a lot more than the developers. But their game knowledge is less adequate? It’s understandable that the 4* roster is incomplete so it’s too soon to judge them. But for older characters how is it balanced that certain characters have one optimal build? Some characters have poor damage/AP ratios, resulting in them being outclassed and having an undefined role. I’m okay with “You’re supposed to lose.”; however, saying that characters are balanced is something I can’t get behind.

Agreed. Some characters are garbage. It is truly distributing they can't admit it. And while I'd concede some of them may be able to finish some specific match, I think they're oblivious to the implications of PvP events as a whole running unpopular teams.

The game is about speed. Get in, get points, get the **** out. That's why anything other than ap and damage accelerators and heavy hitters are garbage the meta.

I got my 1000 point Thing for the current PvP, and didn't want to push more for those Sentry placement covers (and Sentry for second place at this point is yet another 'what the ****' item, but I'll try not to get into a rant within a rant), so I didn't reshield. In under an hour, I was down over 400 points.. These teams they claim are good might be good in a vacuum, but they're slow. And that means you'll ultimately lose more points than you win in the time it takes to do a match with their garbage PvE point and matchmaking system.

Ludaa

1. Get angry at the devs for seeming not to care how great their game could be.

2. Realize all freemium games are evil.

3. Get angry at yourself for falling into their trap.

4. Keep playing for a while, just because of the awesome people you've met along the way.

jobob

mpqq wrote:

If you're not a whale, you're expendable.

I just want to point out... it isn't like D3 listens to the whales either. They are typically treated as being just as expendable as free players. I've been in lots of LINE chats among whales, and they make a lot of the same complaints as every other player, and feel just about as important to D3.

The Herald

jobob wrote:

mpqq wrote:

If you're not a whale, you're expendable.

I just want to point out... it isn't like D3 listens to the whales either. They are typically treated as being just as expendable as free players. I've been in lots of LINE chats among whales, and they make a lot of the same complaints as every other player, and feel just about as important to D3.

Every fix to the game here, would directly benefit whales too. A better game would be better for everybody.