My #1 gripe with MtGPQ

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  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
    Hibernum_JC wrote:
    If I balanced around "everyone has access to every card" (which is mostly what Hearthstone does, since in effect everyone has access to every single card) which is part of what I was attempting to do with Origins, we end up with a lot of undesirable Mythics that feel bad when you pull them.

    So I balance around a different concept - I want players to get excited when they pull a Mythic, I want players to get a new one and go "Okay, so how does this fit, because it's OBVIOUSLY strong". As you guys have seen, I've also moved away from the concept we had in Origins (and rebalanced them) of mostly all high-cost cards, because they were incredibly unattractive (unless you played specific Green decks where your mana gain was insane). Instead, I've tried to make a good mix of casting costs, initial power and scaling power. Some incredibly powerful Mythics from BFZ went largely ignored, which I found peculiar (Felidar Sovereign, which has 10 points of stats for 8 mana, Vigilance and Lifelink, which is arguably one of the most powerful evergreens in our game, has a huge power level, but I've never even seen any sort of chatter about it) but I'm chalking that up to the fact that it doesn't seem to do much.

    I don't want to get too much off-topic here, but the logic behind the balancing is that we want Rares and Mythics to feel immediately powerful, interesting and desirable.

    Right, but how excited do you think people are to pull their 2nd through 6th of a rare or mythic? They aren't. It's frustrating, and annoying. Heck, I'd be fine with the "you can't buy cards" if you guys would just implement a "you won't get duplicates" policy. Do you think that players are happy when they open their 8th copy of Mina and Denn, Wildborn? I sure wasn't. How about their 5th Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper? Nope. I love those cards. I use them in decks. But when I'm opening, say, a Big Box and I get 2 duplicate mythics and 3 duplicate rares, something is broken with your system.

    People want new things. We're collectors. We want to experiment with new decks, and obtain the cards we see others playing with. It isn't right that one person can invest time and money and get Powerful Mythic 01, Powerful Mythic 02, and Powerful Rare 03, and another person can invest the same amount of time and play and get Mediocre Mythic 01, Mediocre Mythic 01, and Mediocre Mythic 01.

    This issue even affects the forums and reddits where the game is discussed. "I need help beating so-and-so", posts someone, and the responses are "use this mythic, or this deck full of mythics, or these rares and mythics". Well, that's great, but "get powerful cards" doesn't help the person looking for advice.

    I'd gladly use Felidar Sovereign if you want to throw one in my collection. Instead, I'll just look at my 5th Painful Truths and sigh.
  • glggwp
    glggwp Posts: 202 Tile Toppler
    i opened a big box and obtained pyromancer's goggles today! at this rate of 1 missing mythic / big box rate, i only need 10 more big boxes of origin!
  • tdellaringa
    tdellaringa Posts: 89
    It's interesting that one person is upset they can't get the last 11 mythics to complete the collection - meanwhile I am sitting here with 11 mythics TOTAL - and I got crazy lucky and got two today. icon_e_biggrin.gif I do not pay to play, so that is one difference. I have been playing about as long as the game has been out.

    I kind of feel like the rate I have gotten them has been somewhat fair. I agree with the idea that like in the early days of the card game, the idea is that people will have different sets of cards. Sure, you're not really playing against others, but it sounds like that is coming.

    But I can see putting some mechanism in place to "work" for a specific card.

    It's interesting to allow trades, and once you trade that card, it's gone from your library (even if you have a dupe) and you have to attain it again.
  • Morphis
    Morphis Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
    tdellaringa wrote:
    It's interesting that one person is upset they can't get the last 11 mythics to complete the collection - meanwhile I am sitting here with 11 mythics TOTAL - and I got crazy lucky and got two today. icon_e_biggrin.gif I do not pay to play, so that is one difference. I have been playing about as long as the game has been out.

    I kind of feel like the rate I have gotten them has been somewhat fair. I agree with the idea that like in the early days of the card game, the idea is that people will have different sets of cards. Sure, you're not really playing against others, but it sounds like that is coming.

    But I can see putting some mechanism in place to "work" for a specific card.

    It's interesting to allow trades, and once you trade that card, it's gone from your library (even if you have a dupe) and you have to attain it again.
    The problem lies in duplicates.
    Of course a new player will get new stuff at decent rate.
    The more your collection build up, the less chances you have to get something new.
    That is to be expected of course but when the duplicates have no valuable use you see the problem.
    Nowadays even if I get lucky as you state and get 2 mythics in one day be almost assured they will both be duplicates. Worthless duplicates.
    That is the one thing they should change, giving a proper value to duplicates. Even if random cards....

    Getting "planeswalker experience points"(cause that is what runes basically are at the moment) is worthless in the mid-long run.
  • paralistalon
    paralistalon Posts: 153
    JC does make a good point about how the current system allows for them to push power levels... although this does give an advantage to mega whales. My biggest problem is that as I build up a good selection of rares and a couple of mythics, the VALUE of buying a booster pack keeps decreasing because the chance of getting a new card drops to the single digit percents and lower pretty quickly.
  • Barrelrolla
    Barrelrolla Posts: 289
    paralistalon wrote:
    JC does make a good point about how the current system allows for them to push power levels... although this does give an advantage to mega whales. My biggest problem is that as I build up a good selection of rares and a couple of mythics, the VALUE of buying a booster pack keeps decreasing because the chance of getting a new card drops to the single digit percents and lower pretty quickly.
    That's why I got 3 big boxes and I'm not getting another until SoI.
    When you open a Big Box at release every card is new and it's so exciting. After you open 2-3 every card is a duplicate, even rares, so a Big Box at that point is just a chance for a Mythic you don't have, but even that is not guaranteed. If you could do something with these duplicates, other than converting them to a currency that I can get in 30 minutes in QB, I'd buy more Big Boxes, but currently, there's just no point.
  • Sinslayer5
    Sinslayer5 Posts: 45
    This is the type of post that both enthralls and confuses me.

    The forums grant us direct access to our game's developers, which presents us with two opportunities. The first and very constructive use is to give instant feedback and help move the game's future forward, but the SECOND is sometimes overlooked: to consider the developer's position and acknowledge the limitations in granting our every whim. We should suggest improvements to the game to keep us engaged, but it goes too far to ignore the obvious business strategies at work behind this freemium game in favor of a system that lets us have it all our way.

    I wanted to say this first, because I don't want what will follow to sound like I'm against forum feedback or frustration venting (I've been frustrated by bad pulls, too), but posting with a title like, "I quit, because I don't get what I want" isn't only childish and immature, but also turns away from logical discourse and devolves into a woe-fest that only serves to cheapen your experience. There are better ways of getting the devs attention: rational thought that, as best as possible, takes into account their perspective, and allows for the possibility that your suggestion could be found to be just plain foolish, even if you didn't intend it to. I guess I would just hope we can all think through our suggestions and posts in this light, before hitting "Publish".

    I may regret this, but I'm going to start by calling out a perfect example of a non-constructive post (this will also serve as my TL,DR):
      It isn't right that one person can invest time and money and get Powerful Mythic 01, Powerful Mythic 02, and Powerful Rare 03, and another person can invest the same amount of time and play and get Mediocre Mythic 01, Mediocre Mythic 01, and Mediocre Mythic 01.

      This issue even affects the forums and reddits where the game is discussed. "I need help beating so-and-so", posts someone, and the responses are "use this mythic, or this deck full of mythics, or these rares and mythics". Well, that's great, but "get powerful cards" doesn't help the person looking for advice.

      I'd gladly use Felidar Sovereign if you want to throw one in my collection. Instead, I'll just look at my 5th Painful Truths and sigh.
      1. Yes, it is right for anyone to invest money in a game in this way, and for the game to randomize the results so that you keep wanting more and thus stay engaged.

      2. "Powerful" versus "mediocre" is relative to future cardsets - what's "bad" now could be "essential" later.

      3. Literally read the posts - a number of lower-tier Uncommons and Commons decks have been shown to beat Inverter of Truth, Tyrant of Valakut, and Kozilek.

      4. Asking for freebies is just silly.

      Now that that's out of the way, I will back up my statements above with some counterpoints to a few of the above propositions:
        There definitely needs to be some solution. Trading, crafting, redeeming duplicates for a currency that can be used to get new cards, just some path to fill in the gaps.A big part of a freemium game's success would, I think, ride on the number of active users in the system month-to-month, more so than actual current sales margins. If this is true (and I'm no dev, so it may not be), it would make sense to taper the ability and control the speed at which a user could acquire all possible options of gameplay. Thus, a card-collection and card-playing game such as MtGPQ would require limitation to accessing all cards in the set, and given that we are only 2.25 sets into the game at all, I completely understand why there is not an option to trade, craft, redeem or in any way directly access specific cards among the available pool. It also makes sense to limit this aspect of the game, given a freemium model in which certain cards are left out of the available pool but are up for early-access through real money - it's designed to spur you into purchase for access ahead of time, and probably a bit to make the buyer feel special icon_cool.gif .
          I take your point, I really do. I mean who doesn't want more content to play with?

          And you're correct, what I'm saying *is* that at the moment the only way to be overpowered in this game is to get lucky. The fix I would propose is to 'not have overpowered cards and planeswalkers', instead of 'give everyone access to overpowered cards and planeswalkers'.

          Do we all want all of our QB games to be against one of these decks?:
          viewtopic.php?f=31&t=48070          As JC and others have stated before: "power" is relative to future sets - those "bad" Mythics you have now might end up being crazy good in a future set, and once you have it in this game, you have an unlimited number for deck construction (UNLIKE, I would add, in paper Magic). That is why the earlier half of this post makes no sense - why have no powerful cards with which you can get excited for new deck ideas?

          The second part of this quote describes exactly another reason why not to give direct access to all cards: we'd all feel like we'd have to play the same winning-est combos to feel like we had a fair chance at success against everyone else.
            ...we see these all these awesome mythics/rares that we would love to build around, but we might only get a fraction of them and have to be super lucky to get the ones we really are excited about...increasing the odds of Rares and Mythic Rares would go a long way to make your average player happy. I realize that there have been some offerings that are intended to bridge the divide such as guaranteed Rare/Mythic with color packs, extra no-common packs with big boxes, and new events that have generous rewards to name a few. For those we are grateful but I hope you understand if, in our enthusiasm, we want more.I don't know that it would make a player happier in the long run.

            The great thing about the way this game is designed (and I would argue Magic and MtGPQ as a whole) is that you DON'T have to have "overpowered" cards to strategize a path to success, which grants access to more opportunities for pulling new cards in the form of rewards, which themselves are designed to spur you into further strategy and expanded ideas behind how to maximize within your limitations. Without these limitations, the player would quickly run out of creative deck combinations, would quickly stop playing, and thus affect the business's active user base. Plus, trying to win the uphill battle is always much more satisfying than lording over it all, over and over again (an opinion, I know, but as a UC owner, I can back it up with my own experience).
              People want new things. We're collectors. We want to experiment with new decks, and obtain the cards we see others playing with.And that's the point. The driving force behind it all is the fact that you don't have it all...YET. That's what keeps collectors coming back for more - the prospect of getting them all, as opposed to having them all and never looking back. The economic devs above JC and his team know this, CEOs know this, and the entire freemium app market knows this: it's the reason we play day after day, hoping for another sweet, sweet pull.

              In the end, this is a business that wants your money AND your time and dedication that could result in future money, crossover into paper Magic, or, at the very least, word-of-mouth to draw in new players. I for one am impressed at the low access to that aspect that makes all forms of Magic worthwhile: to PLAY, not just collect, and to win only through your own strategy and wit. If that means playing with the constrains and woes of not yet having that one mythic - turning me back to what cards I do have and to the forums for inspiration to make it work - then I'm happy to have found an online Magic community experience worth waiting for.
            • Morphis
              Morphis Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
              Sinslayer5 wrote:
              WALL OF TEXT
              I agree with most of these thing.
              Particularly the idea that most people do not see that they have to follow a precise plan to get the most out of a f2p game.
              That's why, for istance, i am against a craft system to get specific cards.
              It's not that I would not like or benefit from it(damn UC where are you?) it's that I know it is not a good move for them and, in the long run, not even for the players unless they release new cards really frequently or make the craft really high costed(but then ppl would complain it to cost too much).

              Anyways anything is good in the proper amount.
              The chances to get new stuff when your collection is at a good level is too low.
              Low to the point of making people lose interest.
              Take my examples... At the beginning I competed for QBs with all my strength.
              Nowadays even if I still miss some cards I would really love to have(again, UC where are you?) I do not care.
              The gain is too little for the effort.

              When you take in account the average time it takes to get to this level for someone that has access to many packs(shop buy and/or QB constant good placement) and the frequency of new cards being added, I feel the drop is too low.
              Not by a huge amount, but big enough.

              How many months since next card release? Probably 2.
              Two months where I will probably get very few new stuff if I put some effort(let's say, getting 2 fat packs a week).
              That's a big hole in the "life cycle" of the game between expansions.

              The best thing would be saving for next expansion or at the very least for full card unlock for this one. This should b something you start thinking a couple weeks before, not two months.

              Also I have a really bad experience with this tactic(only one good card out of a total of like 40 packs between boxes, fats, and boosters).
              That was probably bad luck to be honest(after that it was not bad THIS much).
            • Meto5000
              Meto5000 Posts: 583
              Sinslayer5 wrote:
              I wanted to say this first, because I don't want what will follow to sound like I'm against forum feedback or frustration venting (I've been frustrated by bad pulls, too), but posting with a title like, "I quit, because I don't get what I want" isn't only childish and immature, but also turns away from logical discourse and devolves into a woe-fest that only serves to cheapen your experience. There are better ways of getting the devs attention: rational thought that, as best as possible, takes into account their perspective, and allows for the possibility that your suggestion could be found to be just plain foolish, even if you didn't intend it to. I guess I would just hope we can all think through our suggestions and posts in this light, before hitting "Publish".

              Is that how my post comes off? Childish, immature, foolish and without rational thought? Pardon me if I absolutely take offense to this. I'm not simply whining because Player B got better pulls than me, I'm complaining that after more than 7 months of time and a substantial amount of money spent, there's literally no path to complete a set that has been out of rotation for over 3 months. This problem will only get worse as more sets are released. Due to this, I lack a sense of completion which is ABSOLUTELY a valid point. Magic is a game that is enjoyed in many ways, and collecting cards is high on the list of reasons people play. The fact that this game lacks the ability to finish a set is a sour point with many in this community.

              Secondly, probably the biggest reason to play this game is to get more cards in order to build new and better decks. I am at the point in my collection where last night I opened a Big Box, 16 packs of cards, and got exactly ZERO non duplicates. ZERO. 600 crystals represents a significant time investment to earn. Why the hell should I keep playing if even after opening the equivalent to a Booster Box, I get no reward since runes are worthless to me.

              So yes, if I quit, it will because this game leaves me feeling incomplete with near meaningless rewards. This is not meant to be a whine, or a threat - this is the reality. I want to be rewarded for my playtime and for money spent. I want a feeling of accomplishment and completeness. What does it matter if I get more crystals per PvP event, if the only thing crystals get me is a box of worthless duplicate cards? I'm not begging for handouts, I'm attempting to bring light to an issue that I care deeply about and imagine others do as well. If the developers decide that creating a better way to acquire cards, especially ones that have been out for months, is not something they want to address or change that is absolutely fine. The game will go on, and there are plenty of people who don't care as much as much as I do about completing a collection and aren't in a position where 99% of all cards they get are duplicates. I just don't see myself continuing to play, or at least play close to as much as I do now, if this is how the game's future looks.
            • Sinslayer5
              Sinslayer5 Posts: 45
              Meto5000 wrote:
              Sinslayer5 wrote:
              I wanted to say this first, because I don't want what will follow to sound like I'm against forum feedback or frustration venting (I've been frustrated by bad pulls, too), but posting with a title like, "I quit, because I don't get what I want" isn't only childish and immature, but also turns away from logical discourse and devolves into a woe-fest that only serves to cheapen your experience. There are better ways of getting the devs attention: rational thought that, as best as possible, takes into account their perspective, and allows for the possibility that your suggestion could be found to be just plain foolish, even if you didn't intend it to. I guess I would just hope we can all think through our suggestions and posts in this light, before hitting "Publish".

              Is that how my post comes off? Childish, immature, foolish and without rational thought? Pardon me if I absolutely take offense to this. I'm not simply whining because Player B got better pulls than me, I'm complaining that after more than 7 months of time and a substantial amount of money spent, there's literally no path to complete a set that has been out of rotation for over 3 months. This problem will only get worse as more sets are released. Due to this, I lack a sense of completion which is ABSOLUTELY a valid point. Magic is a game that is enjoyed in many ways, and collecting cards is high on the list of reasons people play. The fact that this game lacks the ability to finish a set is a sour point with many in this community.

              Secondly, probably the biggest reason to play this game is to get more cards in order to build new and better decks. I am at the point in my collection where last night I opened a Big Box, 16 packs of cards, and got exactly ZERO non duplicates. ZERO. 600 crystals represents a significant time investment to earn. Why the hell should I keep playing if even after opening the equivalent to a Booster Box, I get no reward since runes are worthless to me.

              So yes, if I quit, it will because this game leaves me feeling incomplete with near meaningless rewards. This is not meant to be a whine, or a threat - this is the reality. I want to be rewarded for my playtime and for money spent. I want a feeling of accomplishment and completeness. What does it matter if I get more crystals per PvP event, if the only thing crystals get me is a box of worthless duplicate cards? I'm not begging for handouts, I'm attempting to bring light to an issue that I care deeply about and imagine others do as well. If the developers decide that creating a better way to acquire cards, especially ones that have been out for months, is not something they want to address or change that is absolutely fine. The game will go on, and there are plenty of people who don't care as much as much as I do about completing a collection and aren't in a position where 99% of all cards they get are duplicates. I just don't see myself continuing to play, or at least play close to as much as I do now, if this is how the game's future looks.
              The body and content of your post (or many of the posts in this thread, for that matter) is not at all like the first example I quoted, and I do not call into question anyone's devotion to the game and its improvement - but I stand by my opinion that the approach of titling a post with a purposefully derisive and incendiary tone is not the most adult way of opening a discussion of what improvements are needed. It's just the kind of thing that invites others to rush to conclusions and emotion, as opposed to thinking it through and allowing for the possibility that what seems like a perfect solution may not take everything into account.

              I apologize for my choice of words, and can see now how they could be interpreted as a personal attack, as opposed to a challenge to the approach. It was not my intention to belittle you for continuing what I agree is a necessary discussion to improve the game's user experience.
            • madwren
              madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
              Sinslayer5 wrote:
              This is the type of post that both enthralls and confuses me.

              I may regret this, but I'm going to start by calling out a perfect example of a non-constructive post (this will also serve as my TL,DR):

              By "perfect example", you mean my post, which directly responded to a developer statement which stated "we want Rares and Mythics to feel immediately powerful, interesting and desirable" and "I want players to get excited when they pull a Mythic".

              My post, which contradicted that by offering real-world examples that contradict that stated aim, and suggested a halfway point between “crafting any card you want” and “getting screwed by the RNG yet again”. That halfway point, I believe, is dispensing with duplicates on mythics and rares. That retains the element of randomness while still fostering an environment of continual excitement and motivation.

              If you disagree, great, but "non-constructive" is a bit trolly. It's wholly constructive to seek an alternative that both satisfies the developer’s goal (creating excitement when opening packs) and the playerbase (being able to obtain cards and not that sinking feeling of wasting time/money when you get your 5th duplicate). It's likewise constructive to attempt to communicate those feelings of frustration to the people soliciting input.

              Meanwhile, you're throwing around judgments and insults, or taking things out of context. I’m assuming you weren’t doing the latter deliberately, but number 4 below seems disingenuous at best. Thus, I'll clarify.
              Sinslayer5 wrote:
              1. Yes, it is right for anyone to invest money in a game in this way, and for the game to randomize the results so that you keep wanting more and thus stay engaged.

              2. "Powerful" versus "mediocre" is relative to future cardsets - what's "bad" now could be "essential" later.

              3. Literally read the posts - a number of lower-tier Uncommons and Commons decks have been shown to beat Inverter of Truth, Tyrant of Valakut, and Kozilek.

              4. Asking for freebies is just silly

              1. Again, the current distribution method directly contradicts the stated goal, in that it doesn’t create the “players get excited” dynamic as much as the “players occasionally get excited, and often get disappointed.”

              2. Yes, and just like in paper magic, there are some cards that are bad cards, and always will be bad cards. However, it’s undeniable that certain cards, such as Undergrowth Champion, are at least temporarily ridiculously powerful, and present an undeniable advantage.

              3. This doesn’t address what I actually said, which was an example of how the current distribution system does not create excitement. If you’ve read all the posts (as you allude), then you’ve also seen the number of posts on here, and Reddit, where people list mythic-heavy decks—only to then see posts by people after them expressing disappointment, or in some cases saying “well, I might as well not play, I only have 3 mythics.”

              4. Also silly is misinterpreting a poignant example of redundancy as an actual request.
            • Sinslayer5
              Sinslayer5 Posts: 45
              The point is made; whether you agree or not is of no consequence. But I for one believe the way you've laid out your frustrations above is much more thought out, and more clearly communicates your argument for how the game could be better.
            • shteev
              shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
              madwren wrote:
              However, it’s undeniable that certain cards, such as Undergrowth Champion, are at least temporarily ridiculously powerful, and present an undeniable advantage.

              It really is, isn't it? Having a different viewpoint on this is not remotely credible.

              Sinslayer5 wrote:
              In the end, this is a business that wants your money AND your time and dedication that could result in future money, crossover into paper Magic, or, at the very least, word-of-mouth to draw in new players.

              This thread here *is* the word of mouth that's being generated by players. The mobile game market is well known for prizing addictive game mechanics over entertaining ones, so it's no surprise that a lot of their user bases are constantly complaining.
            • Fiddler
              Fiddler Posts: 251 Mover and Shaker
              I still get excited when I get a card that fills in part of my sets. Just this week I finally scored Deep Sea Terror from a mini booster. Been waiting months to check that one off! Then just a day or two later scored Noyan Dar in a reward pack. Was not expecting that! My point is that even though I have over 500 cards in the sets, I still occasionally get a new one. Maybe every third week or so.

              I, of course, have my favorite deck that I like to grind with. But I am looking forward to the new mechanic and the chance to waste more mana crystals on filling up the gaps. The chance to really experiment with different cards combos will be a hoot as well.
            • buffbeardo
              buffbeardo Posts: 154
              Noyan Dar! Nice pull. I look forward to pulling that card one day someday. I'd wish upon a shooting star but I live in the city where stars in the sky aren't visible. Doh!

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