My #1 gripe with MtGPQ

Meto5000

*Edit: Changed the title to be less dramatic*

I have played this game nearly every day - I've missed, maybe, 2 daily prizes since the game launched in December of 2015.
I've opened 1-2 "bonus 3 packs" every day since they started offering them.
I've spent enough money on the game to at least be considered a "moderate payer" if not a whale.

Despite all of this, I'm still missing 11 mythics and 1 rare from the Origins expansion and there's no realistic way for me to EVER get these cards. Since I can only get Origins cards from booster packs and from the daily 3 packs, the probability of me pulling a rare or mythic card from I don't already own is astronomically low. Like...the only way I would ever be able to complete my collection would be through spending literally thousands of dollars - and even then, I'm open to being screwed by random chance. And what do i get for my duplicate cards? Runes that are useless since, again, I am a daily player with an excess of runes despite having 8 level 60 PWs (Base5 + Kiora, Ajani and Gideon2). I haven't even cashed my Duplicate cards in because I've never had the need for more runes.

How is it okay that even though I've been a daily player for over 7 months, have paid a fair amount, that I am still unable to complete an expansion that went out of rotation on 4/21/2016 - exactly 3 months ago? Because there is no path to card completion either through crafting, or an in game store, I am doomed to only ever being able to use cards that I got lucky with. Half of the fun of MTG is building and theorycrafting decks. It is extremely frustrating.

So yes, if I ever quit this game, it won't be because of bugs, or unbalanced cards, or a difficult to navigate UI, or repeated crashes and freezes of the app. If I ever quit this game it will be because there's no reasonable way for me to ever complete a collection, even months later after the set was sent out of rotation.

Theros

They should make all cards available to pick from imo. We're not playing against people live so there is no point to such restriction.

shteev

There are a bunch of reasons why I might quit this game, but this won't be one of them. While it's a little annoying that you can't obtain the full collection, it does create an environment in which different players have access to different cards. This was actually the intention in the early days of Paper MTG, that players would have access to only a handful of rares... it's inventors just didn't realise how much money people were prepared to pay for a card game.

There is clearly no intent to make cards in this game even remotely balanced... reduced access to cards is the only thing that stops everyone playing with Undergrowth Champion or Crush of Tentacles.

Malcrof

Question, in the specific color packs, are they mixed Origins and BFZ?

Meto5000

shteev wrote:

There are a bunch of reasons why I might quit this game, but this won't be one of them. While it's a little annoying that you can't obtain the full collection, it does create an environment in which different players have access to different cards. This was actually the intention in the early days of Paper MTG, that players would have access to only a handful of rares... it's inventors just didn't realise how much money people were prepared to pay for a card game.

There is clearly no intent to make cards in this game even remotely balanced... reduced access to cards is the only thing that stops everyone playing with Undergrowth Champion or Crush of Tentacles.

This makes no sense since what you're saying is that the only way to become "overpowered" in this game is to get lucky. Original magic's intention was indeed what you said, but they quickly realized how silly of an idea it was and stopped printing cards like the Power 9 over 20 years ago. Given equal skill and time investment, everyone should be able to be on the same playing field. Spending money should only be a way to make up for lost time, or to get ahead when a new set is released. Given the obscurity of Origins packs, the only way I'd ever be able to complete my collection is to spend, and I'm repeating myself from above, LITERALLY thousands of dollars to guarantee I get every card I'm looking for. How are you arguing against that being completely ridiculous? I'm not asking for free handouts, I'm asking for a system where if I put in an over 7 months investment of both time and money, I should be able to completed an expansion that went out of rotation 3 months ago.

soultwist

I'm right there with you, just a little bit behind.

For me it's 15 Mythic, 5 rare. Doesn't make sense to spend on those 20 cards. I got one about a month ago from a QB, 2 are white so the odds go up a bit for the White QB.

It's not even about building the most amazing deck I'd just like to try some of them out. They look fun.

Edit: holy **** I just pulled Sigil of the Empty Throne out of a free pack 5 minutes ago! Thanks!

15 and 4 now

Barrelrolla

That's why Hearthatone allows you to build the carda you're miasing and that's why people spend more money - duplicates will turn into cards you want. Having all cards in the game doesn't stop people from playing it, but giving them a way to complete their collection makes them pay more.

Morphis

This is basically one of the 2 major flaws for me in this game(other one being QBs rewarding almost only time investment).

At the beginning I was against a system to obtain specific cards and more leaned toward getting the duplicates "recycled" into other random cards(directly or indirectly).

Since they started releasing new cards anyways I realized that obtaining specific cards does not guarantee you can get full collection fast.
So I changed my mind, that is also a valid option.

So basically any way to get benefit from duplicates is really needed.

Think the "fairest" way would be giving the chance to buy packs with runes(even 3 cards like old days).
Fairest cause does not directly penalize who already converted duplicates into runes.

nexus13

Just for reference, on average you would need to get approximately 90 mythics to have a 50% chance of getting one of each of the 24 in the original set. You can expect to have 5 or 6 of some before you get your first of the last one. I'm still short 3 uncommons but have 9 copies of several.

There definitely needs to be some solution. Trading, crafting, redeeming duplicates for a currency that can be used to get new cards, just some path to fill in the gaps.

ShawnP1

I don't like to complain, (although I think I do a fair bit); but I agree that players should be able to have an easier access to missing cards. I think that we should be able to buy packs with runes or maybe for a ridiculous amount of runes we could buy a random rare or mythic. Now keep in mind I haven't paid a dime into this game, but I have played almost everyday since its release and I have got at least 5 others hooked on it and more to at least try it.
Now I feel obliged to add I understand and agree with uniqueness of decks and provision of cards in certain percentages, I have no problem with packs being random or cards being well mythic. But I also think that it should be reasonably possible to obtain all the cards without spending more then one would on paper MTG to do the same, for example my friend bought two booster boxes of Fate Reforged and he got every single card from the set other then Ugin, the spirit dragon. That is not an unreasonable expense especially since a certain Professor has a game that revolves around income gained from selling a booster box after opening.

Yorien666

A good option D3GO might use:

Currently you can only convert duplicated card for Mana Runes. A good variation would be to convert duped cards for cards you don't have, with a X:1 ratio. Cards converted should be of the same rarity (If you convert commons you'll get a common, if you convert rares you'll get a rare...)

Let's say a 2:1 ratio for a RANDOM card you don't have, and a 5:1 ratio for a SPECIFIC card you don't have.

This way people could slowly trade all those duped cards to complete their collections.

nerdstrap

Hearthstone has a 4-1 conversion ratio, that would mean 4000 runes for a specific mythic... I don't see d3go being that generous.

I would be comfortable grinding for 30K-50K runes for a specific mythic. I think it should take either placing in the top 10 of a QB, or winning 100 matches to earn one. So that seems about right.

So, the conversions should be increased. 1000 runes for a mythic is a joke. It should be 10,000 or more!

jollyrogercjf

I posted on this a while back, in paper magic if you buy a box (roughly 4 big boxes) you can pretty much guarantee a play set of commons, pretty much a one full set of uncommons, most all the rares and a smattering of mythic cards... i tried to apply that logic to this game, i didn't even have a full set of commons.

Even with all the basic boosters and rares I pick up from QB I am still missing half the rares from origin, not to mention how much I'm missing from Zendikar. I still dont have all the uncommons from either set, this game is a collectors nightmare, and the company seems to be ok with that.

That is certainly one of the reasons I will quit eventually compiled with the unbalanced mythics and the people who play them. I have been extremely lucky to several mythics that work well in a deck together, but if the power level continues to rise at such a crazy rates there won't be much left to play for without paying for.

glggwp

i got 11 mythics and 1 rare missing from origin as well:

pyromancer's goggles
demonic pact
archangel of tithes
dreadwaters
the great aurora
chandra's ignition
alhammarret's archive
skaab goliath
day's undoing
molten vortex
tragic arrogance
despoiler of souls

i have tons of gideon's phalanx, sentinel of the eternal watch and knight of the white orchid...

shteev

Meto5000 wrote:

shteev wrote:

There are a bunch of reasons why I might quit this game, but this won't be one of them. While it's a little annoying that you can't obtain the full collection, it does create an environment in which different players have access to different cards. This was actually the intention in the early days of Paper MTG, that players would have access to only a handful of rares... it's inventors just didn't realise how much money people were prepared to pay for a card game.

There is clearly no intent to make cards in this game even remotely balanced... reduced access to cards is the only thing that stops everyone playing with Undergrowth Champion or Crush of Tentacles.

This makes no sense since what you're saying is that the only way to become "overpowered" in this game is to get lucky. Original magic's intention was indeed what you said, but they quickly realized how silly of an idea it was and stopped printing cards like the Power 9 over 20 years ago. Given equal skill and time investment, everyone should be able to be on the same playing field. Spending money should only be a way to make up for lost time, or to get ahead when a new set is released. Given the obscurity of Origins packs, the only way I'd ever be able to complete my collection is to spend, and I'm repeating myself from above, LITERALLY thousands of dollars to guarantee I get every card I'm looking for. How are you arguing against that being completely ridiculous? I'm not asking for free handouts, I'm asking for a system where if I put in an over 7 months investment of both time and money, I should be able to completed an expansion that went out of rotation 3 months ago.

I take your point, I really do. I mean who doesn't want more content to play with?

And you're correct, what I'm saying *is* that at the moment the only way to be overpowered in this game is to get lucky. The fix I would propose is to 'not have overpowered cards and planeswalkers', instead of 'give everyone access to overpowered cards and planeswalkers'.

Do we all want all of our QB games to be against one of these decks?:
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=48070

warcin

Personally I love the idea of trading duplicates in at a 4:1 ratio for a random card of the same quality that you do not own. That may drive an increase in sales because even if you buy a pack and don't get anything immediately useful or new you are building towards doing so. The true whales may spend less but I think that would be offset by the low/mid tier spenders as they would be less likely to get frustrated and stop spending. At 4:1 ratio it should not speed things up to much either, and being a random card you do not have means that every one will not immediately just buy the best there is and have god decks. I think it should be cards though instead of some equivalent amount of runes. Runes are much easier to get that duplicate rares/mythics so the cards have a much higher intrinsic value. With these types of games you always need to give your players a feeling they are improving so they keep wanting to play and i think this type of change would help.

soultwist

nerdstrap wrote:

I would be comfortable grinding for 30K-50K runes for a specific mythic.

I would do that for a random one.

Hibernum_JC

shteev wrote:

Meto5000 wrote:

shteev wrote:

There are a bunch of reasons why I might quit this game, but this won't be one of them. While it's a little annoying that you can't obtain the full collection, it does create an environment in which different players have access to different cards. This was actually the intention in the early days of Paper MTG, that players would have access to only a handful of rares... it's inventors just didn't realise how much money people were prepared to pay for a card game.

There is clearly no intent to make cards in this game even remotely balanced... reduced access to cards is the only thing that stops everyone playing with Undergrowth Champion or Crush of Tentacles.

This makes no sense since what you're saying is that the only way to become "overpowered" in this game is to get lucky. Original magic's intention was indeed what you said, but they quickly realized how silly of an idea it was and stopped printing cards like the Power 9 over 20 years ago. Given equal skill and time investment, everyone should be able to be on the same playing field. Spending money should only be a way to make up for lost time, or to get ahead when a new set is released. Given the obscurity of Origins packs, the only way I'd ever be able to complete my collection is to spend, and I'm repeating myself from above, LITERALLY thousands of dollars to guarantee I get every card I'm looking for. How are you arguing against that being completely ridiculous? I'm not asking for free handouts, I'm asking for a system where if I put in an over 7 months investment of both time and money, I should be able to completed an expansion that went out of rotation 3 months ago.

I take your point, I really do. I mean who doesn't want more content to play with?

And you're correct, what I'm saying *is* that at the moment the only way to be overpowered in this game is to get lucky. The fix I would propose is to 'not have overpowered cards and planeswalkers', instead of 'give everyone access to overpowered cards and planeswalkers'.

Do we all want all of our QB games to be against one of these decks?:
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=48070

The thing that is important to note about balance, balancing the cards in general and such, is that we cannot follow the exact same scheme Wizards does with cards. What they typically do is Commons are simple to play, with very few rules. Uncommons go up a bit in complexity, Rares are typically either complex or more powerful than their counterparts in lower rarities and Mythics are very unique cards that tend to either define decks or have a huge power level. Obviously they're now far away from the Power 9.

The other thing to mention is that players *CAN* actively trade, sell and buy individual cards in paper Magic. We don't have trading (neither does 99.9% of all games of our ilk, including Hearthstone) and we do offer some cards up for sale. I know some of you find the prices to be too high, and that's always a concern we bring up to our economic designers and product managers, but ultimately the team doesn't have a say on that.

If I balanced around "everyone has access to every card" (which is mostly what Hearthstone does, since in effect everyone has access to every single card) which is part of what I was attempting to do with Origins, we end up with a lot of undesirable Mythics that feel bad when you pull them.

So I balance around a different concept - I want players to get excited when they pull a Mythic, I want players to get a new one and go "Okay, so how does this fit, because it's OBVIOUSLY strong". As you guys have seen, I've also moved away from the concept we had in Origins (and rebalanced them) of mostly all high-cost cards, because they were incredibly unattractive (unless you played specific Green decks where your mana gain was insane). Instead, I've tried to make a good mix of casting costs, initial power and scaling power. Some incredibly powerful Mythics from BFZ went largely ignored, which I found peculiar (Felidar Sovereign, which has 10 points of stats for 8 mana, Vigilance and Lifelink, which is arguably one of the most powerful evergreens in our game, has a huge power level, but I've never even seen any sort of chatter about it) but I'm chalking that up to the fact that it doesn't seem to do much.

I don't want to get too much off-topic here, but the logic behind the balancing is that we want Rares and Mythics to feel immediately powerful, interesting and desirable.

majincob

Hibernum_JC wrote:

If I balanced around "everyone has access to every card" (which is mostly what Hearthstone does, since in effect everyone has access to every single card) which is part of what I was attempting to do with Origins, we end up with a lot of undesirable Mythics that feel bad when you pull them.

So I balance around a different concept - I want players to get excited when they pull a Mythic, I want players to get a new one and go "Okay, so how does this fit, because it's OBVIOUSLY strong".

I appreciate this insight, and of course we love the work that you do and appreciate you showing up on the boards and explaining the reasoning behind your choices.

The flip side to this approach is that we see these all these awesome mythics/rares that we would love to build around, but we might only get a fraction of them and have to be super lucky to get the ones we really are excited about.

I know this is a well beaten horse and that you (JC) don't have any control over this, but increasing the odds of Rares and Mythic Rares would go a long way to make your average player happy. I realize that there have been some offerings that are intended to bridge the divide such as guaranteed Rare/Mythic with color packs, extra no-common packs with big boxes, and new events that have generous rewards to name a few. For those we are grateful but I hope you understand if, in our enthusiasm, we want more.

Netatron

Hibernum_JC wrote:

Felidar Sovereign, which has 10 points of stats for 8 mana, Vigilance and Lifelink, which is arguably one of the most powerful evergreens in our game, has a huge power level, but I've never even seen any sort of chatter about it

Maybe that's because it's a very defensive card in a game that still mostly rewards being offensive? Or maybe it just dies too easily without having a huge impact? Compare it to something like Drowner of Hope after the scion buff made it nearly pay for itself, much more potential to keep yourself alive, better stats to burst down your enemy, stronger synergy with other cards, and even if someone gets rid of it immediately it still stops them from attacking for a turn. Felidar Sovereign is strong, but it always feels fair to play against. 6 toughness alone is pretty easy to tear through, it might even be a lot stronger if it wouldn't die so easily because it has vigilance. Not automatically blocking is actually one of the reasons I think Consul's Lieutenant is more useful than Knight of the White Orchid; having to block is often a bad thing.

shteev

Hibernum_JC wrote:

Some incredibly powerful Mythics from BFZ went largely ignored, which I found peculiar (Felidar Sovereign, which has 10 points of stats for 8 mana, Vigilance and Lifelink, which is arguably one of the most powerful evergreens in our game, has a huge power level, but I've never even seen any sort of chatter about it) but I'm chalking that up to the fact that it doesn't seem to do much.

Enlightened Ascetic > Felidar Sovereign. Defensive abilities really do suck that much.

Hibernum_JC wrote:

I don't want to get too much off-topic here, but the logic behind the balancing is that we want Rares and Mythics to feel immediately powerful, interesting and desirable.

You might have gone a little over the top on Undergrowth Champion.