Kiora is too powerful

shteev

Did you think we were just going to carry on with this thread until somebody 'wins'?

I've said all the things that I want to say, and I've disagreed with all the things I want to disagree with, and I imagine everyone else feels the same, so it's probably time to move on.

What points did you want me to address?

its like saying to a restaurant owner " Your food is far too delicious, so stop making it so good.

Do you want me to dignify this with a response? Can't you imagine what I might say? It's pretty obvious, isn't it?

No one said Kiora was slow

Well this one we could argue about, but what's the point? Someone said 'i ditched kiora in mora than half the games of the event for liliana resurrect op stuff. A lil bit faster.'... so maybe they didn't technically say she was slow. You said 'Kiora doesn't earn points in QB that much faster because her card animations take a significant amount of time', which I interpreted as slow. Sorry if I was wrong. Someone said 'a Kiora deck generally took at least 7-10 minutes to win', which again, I interpreted as slow, sorry if I misunderstood.

Seriously, stop the tears because you don't like something because it beat you.

I mean, statements like this just baffle me. I don't think whoever wrote this even read the rest of the thread.

If Kiora is literally "10 times better" than any other walker, she should be able to win in 30 seconds.

You're right. 'Ten times better' was an exaggeration, and wasn't helpful for my argument at all. I retract it, and in it's place I'd like to suggest 'much more powerful, and clearly in need of a nerf'


Hows all that for you?

EDHdad

You're right. 'Ten times better' was an exaggeration, and wasn't helpful for my argument at all. I retract it, and in it's place I'd like to suggest 'much more powerful, and clearly in need of a nerf'

Actually, that's much more reasonable. I don't necessarily agree, but I can see how someone might be of that opinion, and I could possibly be persuaded.

In paper Magic, they will sometimes ban or restrict a card in format when that card or the deck it appears in is warping the format.

For example, in a recent Modern tournament, nearly 50% of the decks were some form of Eldrazi, the Eldrazi deck would win against non-Eldrazi decks 95% of the time and most of the rest were designed to beat the Eldrazi deck. So, they banned a card from that deck, and unbanned a couple of other cards and now it's no longer warping the metagame.

In Magic Puzzle Quest, it seems reasonable that if everyone is playing a particular planeswalker or a particular card, or they are building their decks specifically to defeat that planeswalker or card, then it might be a candidate to be Nerfed the next update.

I haven't seen this with Kiora yet. I see her now and then, but she doesn't seem to be dominating the metagame the way Jace + Mizzium Meddler used to, or Chandra at 3 loyalty used to.

It's possible this will change now that everyone who has a Kiora will also have that hexproof sphinx guy, but time will tell.

If you were to Nerf Kiora, how would you do it? I don't think it would require much more than a tweak, like making her first ability cost 8 or something.

Ekkias

What makes Kiora powerful her second loyalty ability, and the cards she has access to.

With greens mana ramp, it's not uncommon for me to have the Twins out by turn 3, and then reinforced using her 2nd ability by turn 4.

I can't imagine how other PW could consistently win 5 min QB matches without mythics.

She's good because green and blue are strong colors for QB. Once there's a black/blue or black/green PW, people will realize that the problem isn't Kiora.

shteev

EDHdad wrote:

I haven't seen this with Kiora yet. I see her now and then, but she doesn't seem to be dominating the metagame the way Jace + Mizzium Meddler used to, or Chandra at 3 loyalty used to.

Well, personally I put this down to the fact that Kiora is so expensive. I started saving up for her a while ago, but I got bored and bought Ajani instead the first time around, and I imagine that quite a few people will have done the same thing. I expect Kiora to start showing up in larger numbers soon.

EDHdad wrote:

If you were to Nerf Kiora, how would you do it? I don't think it would require much more than a tweak, like making her first ability cost 8 or something.

I dunno, that first ability is *really* powerful. Generally I use it every time my opponent has 6 mana floating about... this means I don't get to play with Octopi a lot, but I can get very large creatures like my Disciple of the Vault into play quickly.

What concerns me greatly is that it's difficult to balance the costs of cards like Disciple across different planeswalkers, because as Kiora I can play it much more easily than I can as Jace. Poor old Jace doesn't see any love any more... Will he be consigned to the dustbin of history, because we have to make blue cards more expensive to keep Kiora in check?

I think perhaps a mana drain ability is not right for Kiora at all. Perhaps a gem conversion ability, that makes one gem blue and another green? Hmm, maybe too similar to Nissa.

What does Kiora, Master of the Depths do in Paper MTG? [has a look] 'Untap one target creature and one target land'. Maybe something really weak like 'target creature loses disable' (does 'gains hexproof until end of turn' do the same thing?). I like idea of an ability that literally does nothing except in certain circumstances.

I also wouldn't be opposed to dropping the mana bonuses at level 60. Currently she gets +3+3 = 6, whereas everyone else gets +3+1+1. I seem to remember the devs describing this is worse in some way [citation needed], but it's clearly better. I'd seriously consider making her gem bonuses +2+2+0+0+0.


[edit] Oh, and I'd take Reach and Trample off those Octopi! And maybe she can only have 3. Like the Paper MTG card.

Feagul

After tinkering around with Koth and Gideon 2.0, I disagree and would only play those planeswalker if Kiora's mana generation was nerfed. With good cards, both of those decks go toe-to-toe with Kiora and even outpace her without long cast chains plagued by animation times. Also, if you look at all the walkers at 60, most premiums already outpace her mana generation: http://imgur.com/a/i5GSq

If and when they release a green/red hybrid walked, that will probably be my go-to over Kiora due to ridiculous card interactions. Mirrorpool + Tyrant of Valakut + Evolutionary Leap + Sword of the Animist, as well as Kozilek's Return + From Beyond + Puromancer's Goggles. It'd be real nuts.

Anyways, my thought is that Kiora is powerful out of the gates and only gets better as you add cards that support her (which is again made easier thanks to having access to two colors). Koth seemed really weak to me, even after his recent buff. However, now that I have some much better cards for him, that deck is as consistent as Kiora and faster to win Quick Battles with. It's not as powerful against the Event's story missions, but that's mainly due to great cards that I have access to that hard counter the event's strengths (Underground Champion and Exert Influence).

Netatron

shteev wrote:

I also wouldn't be opposed to dropping the mana bonuses at level 60. Currently she gets +3+3 = 6, whereas everyone else gets +3+1+1. I seem to remember the devs describing this is worse in some way [citation needed], but it's clearly better. I'd seriously consider making her gem bonuses +2+2+0+0+0.

Most of the planeswalkers that are more expensive than the original five get +7 total. That's who the devs are saying she's worse than.

Barrelrolla

Kiora is strong, that's a fact. But is she OP?
What makes her strong?
Her mana gain definitely is not. Ajani has better mana gain than her. Koth has the best mana gain and yet no one complains.
Let's take a look at her abilities.
The first ability drains mana from the opponent and gives it to Kiora. It's very good.
The second is the best, fetches a creature and gives it mana.
Third sounds good in paper, but in reality it's not that good. Summons a few 8/8 octopi with reach and trample. It dies for 5 mana. Other planeswalkers have ultimates that have guaranteed damage or even win the game.
So overall, her abilities are good, but not broken. Her mana gain is worse than other planeswalkers.
Why is she so strong then?
She has access to green and blue. Currently, these colors have some of the best cards in the game. And they have great synergy. It's an overall iasue with the game, not Kiora in particular. Green have great ramp creatues and blue has all the control needed to protect these creatures.
Kiora doesn't need a nerf. It's just that there are cards that are partuculary good and Kiora can use them in a combo.
In paper magic other great combos are white/black, blue/black, blue/green, red/green. Not sure how they will work here though, because the game just works different and blue/green ia just an amazing combo that has almost no weaknesses.
In the end, but I reaaly want to try red/green. Hopefully it will come with Shadows over Innistrad and Arilinn Kord. I don't think Kiora in particular needs a nerf. We either need other strong color combos like this one, or changes to some of the cards.

EDHdad

What makes Kiora powerful her second loyalty ability, and the cards she has access to.

With greens mana ramp, it's not uncommon for me to have the Twins out by turn 3, and then reinforced using her 2nd ability by turn 4.

I can't imagine how other PW could consistently win 5 min QB matches without mythics.

Thanks for the insight. I built a Kiora deck with lots of green ramp, Desolation Twins and a Disperse for spot removal. It typically won Quick Battle in about 3 1/2 minutes.

Then I built essentially the same deck with Garruk, swapping out Disperse for Scour from Existence, and it also typically won Quick Battle in 3 1/2 minutes.

The main difference was that when Garruk faced an Undergrowth Champion, he had a very difficult time dealing with it, while Kiora could have just bounced it with the Disperse.

I agree that Kiora can be built for speed, and can be as fast as anyone, but I also think that several other planeswalkers could be built to be just as fast.

shteev

Barrelrolla wrote:

Third sounds good in paper, but in reality it's not that good. Summons a few 8/8 octopi with reach and trample. It dies for 5 mana.

Most everything in your post was just your opinion differing from my opinion, Barrelrolla, and that's fine.

But this is the second time in this thread that someone's said that the octopi are going to die for 5 mana, and I've really got to take issue with this.

Exactly when is this going to happen? The AI is programmed not to save up it's loyalty. I mean, it *might* happen to get 19+ loyalty in a turn, and play some, but that doesn't mean it's saved up it's loyalty and used it's other abilities any less, just that it had one amazing turn, and probably cast it's entire hand and put you in a difficult position.

And look, I really don't know how PvP is going to go down in this game, I can imagine Lilianna v Kiora being a mana denial snafu that goes on for hours without either player managing to stick a single creature to the table long enough for it to attack, but I'll tell you this: I'm going to spend that 24 loyalty stealing 24 of your mana and having 24 of my own. Sure, you'll have 24 loyalty too, and be able to do something, but I won't let you counter my 24 loyalty with a 5 mana spell.

No opponent exists who will allow you to Grip of Desolation 4 Octopi without having built up such an advantage that they can afford to.

EDHdad

No opponent exists who will allow you to Grip of Desolation 4 Octopi without having built up such an advantage that they can afford to.

I'm sorry, what? You have one octopus which has been reinforced 3 times, not 4 octopi.

That Octopus dies to removal. Grip of Desolation is just an example. Bone Splinters, Unholy Hunger, Fleshbag Marauder, Scour from Existence, anything with Deathtouch will also kill the Octopus. With no cards in hand, Ob Nixilis' 2nd ability will also kill the Octopus for 9 loyalty.

The current PvP mode favors speed over win percentage, so aggro / ramp are played more frequently than control, and most decks are very light on removal. But even the AI in PvP mode will find a target for Grip of Desolation.

It's possible to build an Ob Nixilis, Liliana, or Sarkhan deck where all 10 cards are removal - either spells which kill your creatures, or creatures which kill your creatures when they make contact.

And it's possible for other colors to make a deck which defeats that deck. That's the point. The question isn't whether planeswalker x is "powerful", but is planeswalker x "balanced"? When everyone was playing Mizzium Meddler, they Nerfed Mizzium Meddler. When everyone was playing Chandra at 3 loyalty, they Nerfed Chandra. When everyone was playing Noyan Dar, Day's Undoing and Animist's Awakening in Kiora (subject to availability), they Nerfed those cards.

Kiora could be Nerfed by making her abilities cost more or making her abilities do less. She could also be Nerfed in the Metagame by printing more answers, or by coming up with Planeswalkers in the other 7 2-color combinations. There's also 10 different 3-color combinations, 5 different 4-color combinations, and the possibility of a 5-color planeswalker.

shteev

I didn't make myself clear. When I said 'PvP', I meant genuine PvP against an actual human opponent making moves and casting spells, not current PvP against an AI.

I stand by everything I said in that post, tho. No Human will use Kiora's third ability if its possible they can generate an enormous disadvantage for themselves by doing so.

You may say, well, If Kiora's 3rd ability is never used, isn't she kind of bad? To which I say, well, Ajani's 3rd ability is pretty attrocious, and he isn't bad.

shteev

EDHdad wrote:

I'm sorry, what? You have one octopus which has been reinforced 3 times, not 4 octopi

http://grammarist.com/usage/octopi-octopuses/

EDHdad

I didn't make myself clear. When I said 'PvP', I meant genuine PvP against an actual human opponent making moves and casting spells, not current PvP against an AI.

I stand by everything I said in that post, tho. No Human will use Kiora's third ability if its possible they can generate an enormous disadvantage for themselves by doing so.

OK. Now I understand. And I tend to agree. Most of the time, you're designing a deck with one of a Planeswalker's abilities in mind, and will sometimes use a second or third ability if the situation calls for it.

However, I do think that some players would design a Kiora deck with the third ability in mind. Or they might find themselves in a game where they happen to have cascaded up to 30 loyalty, have 2 or fewer creatures on board (or an Octopus from Crush of Tenticles) and figured "what the heck".

Barrelrolla

Well, ther is no real PVP in this game and I don't think there ever will be, so trying to balance something around that is pointless. And even if it happens, let's see how that goes first.

andrewvanmarle

Kiora's biggest asset has been nerfed allready: Animist awakening (which is almost useless now). She can't'cycle cards with prism array and fill those with twhat drops (and gemchangers) to do it again.
Right now she is as fast as Koth when she uses her power ánd'gets a green or blue match.

The card combinations are killer but not broken (anymore).

We'll'probably have the same discussion when we get a black/white, blue/black, red/green planeswalker.

Remember this: the devs don't'balance for power but for impact on the metagame (there there is no direct pvp). If everyone comes up with the same deck to win, that's'when there is something wrong...... So stop crying nerf just because you lost and embrace the challenge

Netatron

I just faced a Kiora deck that managed to smash through a 51/51 creature I had out, now I understand people's frustration. Animist's awakening sure was nerfed, but Nissa's Renewal is as powerful as ever. I think their deck was:

Nissa's Renewal
Drowner of Hope
From Beyond
Thopter Spy Network
Animist's Awakening
Nissa's Pilgrimage
Prism Array
Yavimaya Coast
Zendikar Resurgent

And either Omnath or a Fertile Thicket or something, I forget. Once something like this gets going, the only way to win is to have hard removal, which severely limits deck composition. If I had been playing Kiora myself I probably would have managed, but I was having fun testing out Starfield of Nyx despite not having two of the most core cards to go with it.

span_argoman

Netatron wrote:

I just faced a Kiora deck that managed to smash through a 51/51 creature I had out, now I understand people's frustration. Animist's awakening sure was nerfed, but Nissa's Renewal is as powerful as ever. I think their deck was:

Nissa's Renewal
Drowner of Hope
From Beyond
Thopter Spy Network
Animist's Awakening
Nissa's Pilgrimage
Prism Array
Yavimaya Coast
Zendikar Resurgent

And either Omnath or a Fertile Thicket or something, I forget. Once something like this gets going, the only way to win is to have hard removal, which severely limits deck composition. If I had been playing Kiora myself I probably would have managed, but I was having fun testing out Starfield of Nyx despite not having two of the most core cards to go with it.

Drowner of Hope + From Beyond / Thopter Spy Network is a nasty nasty combo to inflict on people in QB. It's pretty much perma-disable of your creatures unless you can destroy/bounce Drowner or destroy the supports.

Netatron

span_argoman wrote:

Drowner of Hope + From Beyond / Thopter Spy Network is a nasty nasty combo to inflict on people in QB. It's pretty much perma-disable of your creatures unless you can destroy/bounce Drowner or destroy the supports.

It's a lot worse when they're playing 5 cards a turn, so that it doesn't really matter if you destroy them.

andrewvanmarle

No offense Netatron but you are sore because you tried a deck without the right components against a well built deck? Starfield of nix isn't'that strong to begin with....

The combination is strong but can be played by mono-blue planeswalkers too, and with just as great effect. and it dies on removal just as much!

I'm'actually getting tired of nerfcalling in general, most of it is "i lost to this, nerf it". A combo or planeswalker does NOT need nerfing unless there are no answers to it available in the game.

In other words, adapt to the metagame and include removal or bounce spells......

Netatron

andrewvanmarle wrote:

No offense Netatron but you are sore because you tried a deck without the right components against a well built deck? Starfield of nix isn't'that strong to begin with....

The combination is strong but can be played by mono-blue planeswalkers too, and with just as great effect. and it dies on removal just as much!

I'm'actually getting tired of nerfcalling in general, most of it is "i lost to this, nerf it". A combo or planeswalker does NOT need nerfing unless there are no answers to it available in the game.

In other words, adapt to the metagame and include removal or bounce spells......

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that forcing people to include removal or control in their decks if they want to reliably win pvp is harmful to the metagame because it limits what you can play, especially when the colors that require you to have these things to beat them are also the best at using them. I haven't actually called for a nerf to anything.