Required characters and competing in PvE

We_are_Venom

So for the first time in a while I don't have the required 4*, and sadly it happens on a new character release event. Sucks, but it happens.
It got me thinking though, why is it that people with all of them are bracketed with people that have none, or 1/2? With my limitation, even with optimal play, I'm outside of t200 with 0% chance, short of everyone ahead of my quitting, of improving that.
Wouldn't it make more sense to bracket people with equal roster compositions instead of throwing everyone into one as if they are on even footing?

PeterGibbons316

No. During release events you could simple not recruit the new character until after you are bracketed and then recruit it to give yourself a huge advantage.

Also, not having one of the essentials doesn't automatically put you T200 with no chance of improving, that's absurd. If you are grinding all but one node to 1 you are well above T200.

We_are_Venom

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

No. During release events you could simple not recruit the new character until after you are bracketed and then recruit it to give yourself a huge advantage.

Also, not having one of the essentials doesn't automatically put you T200 with no chance of improving, that's absurd. If you are grinding all but one node to 1 you are well above T200.

If you don't have it, it would be locked, simple as that.

If 200 people in front of me have all 3 required and do what you just mentioned, there is no going "well above" t200 no matter what. Hell, they don't even need to grind as much as me as just that 1 required character node can compensate enough to keep me lower.

MojoWild

We_are_Venom wrote:

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

No. During release events you could simple not recruit the new character until after you are bracketed and then recruit it to give yourself a huge advantage.

Also, not having one of the essentials doesn't automatically put you T200 with no chance of improving, that's absurd. If you are grinding all but one node to 1 you are well above T200.

If you don't have it, it would be locked, simple as that.

If 200 people in front of me have all 3 required and do what you just mentioned, there is no going "well above" t200 no matter what. Hell, they don't even need to grind as much as me as just that 1 required character node can compensate enough to keep me lower.

But he's saying people would wait to roster it after entering that bracket, and then have an advantage, because note they have it. The Trojan horse approach I guess.

stochasticism

I'm sure all these 200 people ahead of him just have 1 cover Novas that they are fine selling and then hoping to get one cover to reroster just to get one, maybe two more covers for Peggy via an easier bracket. Nobody has Nova champed, right?

We_are_Venom

MojoWild wrote:

We_are_Venom wrote:

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

No. During release events you could simple not recruit the new character until after you are bracketed and then recruit it to give yourself a huge advantage.

Also, not having one of the essentials doesn't automatically put you T200 with no chance of improving, that's absurd. If you are grinding all but one node to 1 you are well above T200.

If you don't have it, it would be locked, simple as that.

If 200 people in front of me have all 3 required and do what you just mentioned, there is no going "well above" t200 no matter what. Hell, they don't even need to grind as much as me as just that 1 required character node can compensate enough to keep me lower.

But he's saying people would wait to roster it after entering that bracket, and then have an advantage, because note they have it. The Trojan horse approach I guess.

Lock the node for that bracket. If you are missing the 4*, the bracket is filled with players that don't have the 4*, and the node is locked. Adding the character wouldn't unlock the node, so no advantage. They don't get the rewards, they don't get the CP, or the points even if the character is added.

revskip

From a developer standpoint your idea would never work since one of the major reasons to roster every 2*,3* and 4* is so as to be able to outperform those who do not. Which in turn sells HP. Which makes the developers money.

So either enjoy the double ISO and get as much as you can without worrying about placement, which might end up with you placing anyway or try bracket sniping in events where you are missing one or more of the essentials and look at it as a day or two off from the grind that this game can be.

aesthetocyst

Each essential is worth 15% of the possible points.

I have all of the essentials, yet on sub 1 I have 20% fewer pts than the leader. Not for lack of essentials, but RL interfering with optimal play. I am managing top 100 (barely), and if I play steadily, will finish top 100, probably top 50.

I have, in the past, finished top 50 with only 1 essential, by playing optimally and grinding fully.

There are lots of problems with PVE and we talk them to death. Hard essentials should go the way of the dodo. But do you REALLY want to lock in your roster at the beginning of an event? Yuck.

Just get in there and make us proud!

... or, y'know, take a break and sit this one out. Bump everyone below you up a rank by doing so.

We_are_Venom wrote:

Lock the node for that bracket. If you are missing the 4*, the bracket is filled with players that don't have the 4*, and the node is locked. Adding the character wouldn't unlock the node, so no advantage. They don't get the rewards, they don't get the CP, or the points even if the character is added.

Oh, so you can get the new shiny without being pressured to first have the old shiny? In MPQ????

I don't think you're "getting" the dev perspective on "essentials" here.

The whole point is to require you to build roster in a way that almost forces you to $$$. Or be reeeeeeeally patient.

PeterGibbons316

We_are_Venom wrote:

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

No. During release events you could simple not recruit the new character until after you are bracketed and then recruit it to give yourself a huge advantage.

Also, not having one of the essentials doesn't automatically put you T200 with no chance of improving, that's absurd. If you are grinding all but one node to 1 you are well above T200.

If you don't have it, it would be locked, simple as that.

If 200 people in front of me have all 3 required and do what you just mentioned, there is no going "well above" t200 no matter what. Hell, they don't even need to grind as much as me as just that 1 required character node can compensate enough to keep me lower.

I'm sorry, but brackets just aren't that competitive. 1 node will typically net less than 3k points through perfect clears of a sub, and you are telling me that the difference in score between 1st and 200th is less than that? Get out of here.

I typically get green check marks on every node - that's 7 clears, and it usually gets me around T50 in release events. Perfect play would be a total of 9 clears to get everything to 1. The difference between clearing all 9 nodes 7 times each and 8 of 9 nodes 9 times each is negligible - meaning that better than T200 can easily be achieved without one of the essentials.

Stop making excuses.

We_are_Venom

"Oh, so you can get the new shiny without being pressured to first have the old shiny? In MPQ????"

If 999 other players don't have the same required 4*, I'm still competing with 999 other players for top 10. Why would it be any easier to place top 20? We would still have to roster the new character after the event.
The logic on display seems rather out of whack. I won't have to buy a new roster after this event because there is no chance of a top 100 finish without the required character. That's the opposite of what you're claiming is what they are looking for. In fact, by bracketing like rosters, you are INCREASING the amount players likely to buy HP while maintaining the integrity of the competition.

We_are_Venom

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

We_are_Venom wrote:

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

No. During release events you could simple not recruit the new character until after you are bracketed and then recruit it to give yourself a huge advantage.

Also, not having one of the essentials doesn't automatically put you T200 with no chance of improving, that's absurd. If you are grinding all but one node to 1 you are well above T200.

If you don't have it, it would be locked, simple as that.

If 200 people in front of me have all 3 required and do what you just mentioned, there is no going "well above" t200 no matter what. Hell, they don't even need to grind as much as me as just that 1 required character node can compensate enough to keep me lower.

I'm sorry, but brackets just aren't that competitive. 1 node will typically net less than 3k points through perfect clears of a sub, and you are telling me that the difference in score between 1st and 200th is less than that? Get out of here.

I typically get green check marks on every node - that's 7 clears, and it usually gets me around T50 in release events. Perfect play would be a total of 9 clears to get everything to 1. The difference between clearing all 9 nodes 7 times each and 8 of 9 nodes 9 times each is negligible - meaning that better than T200 can easily be achieved without one of the essentials.

Stop making excuses.

What are you not understanding that its LITERALLY impossible to catch people that have the all the required characters?

Is it hard to believe 200 people have all 3 characters? Cause it's not.

Is it hard to believe that this event is super competitive? Because it is, it being a new release of what looks like a beast character AND double ISO on top.

Come on dude, common sense. The difference between me and #1 is 10k. Considering your estimation of 3k for that node, and having the equivalent of 2 subs done, that's 6k right there. Considering I've not finished worse than t50 in a new character release, it stands to reason the ability to place well is contingent on having all 3, regardless of how much grinding I do if they are doing the same.

fmftint

Was just having this conversation with an alliance mate, looking at my 1 cover Hawkeye, why not just let us do essentials short handed? He litterally does nothing but unlock the node

Eichen

I would argue that the long term players and guys that grind the heck out of events should have an advantage over both new and casual players. Nova has been out for months so If you haven't been able to get even a single one yet you either haven't worked hard enough or haven't been around long enough to deserve the extra points.

On top of that I think that the 4* essential should be worth more than the 3* and the 3* worth more than the 2*. To me a 2* player shouldn't be getting to the CP progression they should be getting to the 3* and maybe a little higher but they have no use for the 4/5* cover they get from a legendary token. That gives a natural progression from 2 to 3 and then from 3 to 4. To many are skipping straight from 2* to 4/5*.

MojoWild

Why don't you have the required 4* in the first place?

djeternal

Eichen wrote:

To me a 2* player shouldn't be getting to the CP progression they should be getting to the 3* and maybe a little higher but they have no use for the 4/5* cover they get from a legendary token. That gives a natural progression from 2 to 3 and then from 3 to 4. To many are skipping straight from 2* to 4/5*.

I'm glad it's not up to you for what a 2* player can get from progression. I've hit the max progression and then some on a number of events. That's even with missing essentials like Nova this time around (not sure if I'll hit prog this time tho as I'm behind on pace). The reason I care even tho I'm a 2* player is because it allows me to save my CP & LTs for when I am able to effectively use them. With all the threads complaining about the 3-4* transition saving my CP & LTs will give me a boost even if only slight when I do get to that point instead of starting at 0 and hitting a wall.

Now as for the OP there shouldn't be separate brackets determined by how many, if any, essentials you have. Bracketing is already an issue imo because of placement you have to choose a slice that works for you, clear optimally, AND hope you didn't get placed into an uber aggressive bracket. The better solution instead of separate brackets is progression only rewards. Take the placement away and it doesn't matter what another player's roster is. The only thing that matters is your roster and what you are able to accomplish with said roster.

aesthetocyst

We_are_Venom wrote:

If 999 other players don't have the same required 4*, I'm still competing with 999 other players for top 10. Why would it be any easier to place top 20?

If it would be no easier than competing against those with all the essentials ... than what's the point of this thread again?

We_are_Venom wrote:

I won't have to buy a new roster after this event because there is no chance of a top 100 finish without the required character.

Wrong. There is every chance if you play optimally. As I pointed out, the gap between myself and the top of my bracket is GREATER than all the points an essential would contribute. Therefore, even without an essential you could be doing better than I am!

Further, you don't have to personally finish top 100 to win a new character. There are also alliance rewards available.

We_are_Venom wrote:

What are you not understanding that its LITERALLY impossible to catch people that have the all the required characters?

As that is literally untrue, I literally can't understand what's understandable about your claim, other than it's hyperbolic nature.

IF 100 players (or more) in your bracket have all 3 essentials, AND they all play with at least 85.00001% efficiency, for 4 days straight, then yes, you will not be able to finish in the top 100.

That will not happen.

If it does, then you lucked into the greatest bracket in MPQ history, by far! You should be honored to be part of such a challenge! Even thought you'll come up short, you'll have your pride and integrity intact ....

... as soon as you stop complaining and start competing.

You CAN do it! So ... go! Do it! The bards will sing of your heroic deeds until the servers crash their last!



(Go on! Don't keep him waiting!)

.
.

Crowl

We_are_Venom wrote:

So for the first time in a while I don't have the required 4*, and sadly it happens on a new character release event. Sucks, but it happens.
It got me thinking though, why is it that people with all of them are bracketed with people that have none, or 1/2? With my limitation, even with optimal play, I'm outside of t200 with 0% chance, short of everyone ahead of my quitting, of improving that.
Wouldn't it make more sense to bracket people with equal roster compositions instead of throwing everyone into one as if they are on even footing?

While it might make sense for the person without the essential, it makes no sense to the people who have put in the time and effort to build out their roster more extensively nor the devs who make money from people having a well-rounded roster.

If you took your suggestion to its logical outcome, people could in theory dump their entire 2* roster entirely with no penalty when it came to regular pve.

Calnexin

We_are_Venom wrote:

Lock the node for that bracket. If you are missing the 4*, the bracket is filled with players that don't have the 4*, and the node is locked. Adding the character wouldn't unlock the node, so no advantage. They don't get the rewards, they don't get the CP, or the points even if the character is added.

I like the idea but I can see it being a nightmare from the other side of the table. With three essential nodes, the possible permutations of who-has-what would require eight separate brackets. If they keep the same format of 5 time slices that's 40 different different slices to populate to accommodate every player's unique setup and time choice. That spreads rewards out further than they'd like and requires a lot more post-event data crunching to... do whatever it is they do with the data. They do something with it. I'm pretty sure.

It's also antithetical to the FTP model. The incentive is to roster every single character, which you can do faster if you pay. If you pay more you can make the essential characters better and be more effective at the essential nodes, giving you a better chance at higher placement for the new character, which you then have to pay more for again to make them more effective in the next PvE.

Is it player-friendly? No. Of course not. This business model can't afford to be. Chase the Dragon, or go casual.

The Bob The

This is one of the few ways in which having a more developed roster does NOT result increased challenge, and you want to take that away? Harsh, dude.

We_are_Venom

aesthetocyst wrote:

We_are_Venom wrote:

If 999 other players don't have the same required 4*, I'm still competing with 999 other players for top 10. Why would it be any easier to place top 20?

If it would be no easier than competing against those with all the essentials ... than what's the point of this thread again?

We_are_Venom wrote:

I won't have to buy a new roster after this event because there is no chance of a top 100 finish without the required character.

Wrong. There is every chance if you play optimally. As I pointed out, the gap between myself and the top of my bracket is GREATER than all the points an essential would contribute. Therefore, even without an essential you could be doing better than I am!

Further, you don't have to personally finish top 100 to win a new character. There are also alliance rewards available.

We_are_Venom wrote:

What are you not understanding that its LITERALLY impossible to catch people that have the all the required characters?

As that is literally untrue, I literally can't understand what's understandable about your claim, other than it's hyperbolic nature.

IF 100 players (or more) in your bracket have all 3 essentials, AND they all play with at least 85.00001% efficiency, for 4 days straight, then yes, you will not be able to finish in the top 100.

That will not happen.

If it does, then you lucked into the greatest bracket in MPQ history, by far! You should be honored to be part of such a challenge! Even thought you'll come up short, you'll have your pride and integrity intact ....

... as soon as you stop complaining and start competing.

You CAN do it! So ... go! Do it! The bards will sing of your heroic deeds until the servers crash their last!



(Go on! Don't keep him waiting!)

.
.

It would be equal competition, that's the point.
Well, since I am at roughly 72% efficiency of 1st place at 189th place, your scenario of 100 people being 85% isn't really all that hard to imagine.

Also, I'm not complaining. I really don't care at all. I find the handicap odd considering its a PvE/PvP competition, and suggested it may not be in their best interest to mix these groups like this because it limits the competition.
If they wanted to sell more HP, which is the claim, you'd want MORE people being competitive for the new cover, not less.

acescracked

4* essentials, in a greater extent all essentials, exist to sell tokens & token packs. I think forum goers forget that MPQ is f2p thus has money generating mechanics. Many times D3 has admitted that token packs is their largest revenue source.

Embrace the essentials, they aren't going anywhere.