Pre-Release (v1.5) Notes (06/23/16)

khurram

span_argoman wrote:

khurram wrote:

... avaracious dragon, abbot are all getting buffed by getting their costs reduced...

Avaricious Dragon and Abbot are getting nerfed. They are losing their ability to draw cards with the cost reduced / mana gained which was what made them useful in the first place. Their reduced cost does little to compensate that.

Avaricious cost is reduced by 3 but the subsequent drawn cards are all back to normal cost (the old effect was that subsequent drawn cards are ALL 3 mana cheaper). That's a huge nerf. Abbot cost is reduced by 2 but you no longer gain 6 mana to the drawn card. That's up to 4 mana less. Changing the gem destruction from a 3x3 to a 5x5 doesn't affect all that much in terms of cascading for mana.

Yes, i guess you are right about these 2.
Still more of the changes are positive.

Morphis

span_argoman wrote:

khurram wrote:

... avaracious dragon, abbot are all getting buffed by getting their costs reduced...

Avaricious Dragon and Abbot are getting nerfed. They are losing their ability to draw cards with the cost reduced / mana gained which was what made them useful in the first place. Their reduced cost does little to compensate that.

Avaricious cost is reduced by 3 but the subsequent drawn cards are all back to normal cost (the old effect was that subsequent drawn cards are ALL 3 mana cheaper). That's a huge nerf. Abbot cost is reduced by 2 but you no longer gain 6 mana to the drawn card. That's up to 4 mana less. Changing the gem destruction from a 3x3 to a 5x5 doesn't affect all that much in terms of cascading for mana.

Personally I think avaricious dragon got buffed.
The mana gain on average will be similar. Most of the time I predict the effect will do absolutely nothing... But once in a while will trigger cascades for 10+ mana.
Also unless you face a red opponent it will be kind of little mana denial for them, like void.
The mana reduction is nice too.

Abbot well.. probably a nerf.
Abbot was quite strong to begin with.
Also take in consideration that unless you draw a 6 or less mana card, usually it takes another turn to get the benefit from the reduced mana cost at the moment.
So overall the extended gem destruction and reduced mana cost do not make up for the loss in mana reduction but in terms of actual gameplay I think it will not impact it that much... Will just be less good than before.

span_argoman

Khurram, I definitely agree that the majority of the changes are positive (other than the fact that Undergrowth Champion didn't get a proper nerf). And even though I dislike the changes to Avaricious Dragon and Abbot of Keral Keep, I understand why they had to make those changes (and Day's Undoing) so as not to restrict the future development of the game. I'll get used to it.

Morphis, I doubt destroying 3 gems is likely to give you cascades for 10+ mana. It doesn't shake up the board enough. I agree that the mana denial aspect will be nice though.

Also the strongest aspect of Avaricious Dragon was to build it in a deck with an array of good Red utility spells (Exquisite Firecraft, Fiery Bloodlust, Ravaging Blaze, Demolish, etc.). That way when you drew those cards they were cheap enough to cast with one gem match. Being utility cards you didn't want to waste matches charging them with mana before the primary stuff like getting your creatures on the board, and Avaricious Dragon solved that problem. And if you wanted to go further, Rambler for 5 mana is a very sweet deal. Ditto Abbot for 12 mana when it gets you a 6/5 and up to 6 mana back.

The new design may possibly gain you mana but it'll be to your first card. So unless your hand is empty, which is unlikely for Red, this loses the utility aspect of the old design which is what I believe made the card strong. If the card was a gain 3 mana each turn it would still be strong but less so.

*edit*
Regarding Abbot, I agree that it may not affect gameplay that much though it is less strong. It was nice to draw a full charged Fiery Bloodlust on the Abbot draw though.

Morphis

span_argoman wrote:

Morphis, I doubt destroying 3 gems is likely to give you cascades for 10+ mana. It doesn't shake up the board enough. I agree that the mana denial aspect will be nice though.

Also the strongest aspect of Avaricious Dragon was to build it in a deck with an array of good Red utility spells (Exquisite Firecraft, Fiery Bloodlust, Ravaging Blaze, Demolish, etc.). That way when you drew those cards they were cheap enough to cast with one gem match. Being utility cards you didn't want to waste matches charging them with mana before the primary stuff like getting your creatures on the board, and Avaricious Dragon solved that problem. And if you wanted to go further, Rambler for 5 mana is a very sweet deal. Ditto Abbot for 12 mana when it gets you a 6/5 and up to 6 mana back.

The new design may possibly gain you mana but it'll be to your first card. So unless your hand is empty, which is unlikely for Red, this loses the utility aspect of the old design which is what I believe made the card strong. If the card was a gain 3 mana each turn it would still be strong but less so.

I still think avaricious to be good.
First thing is I stated that most of the time it will do nothing.
Once in a while will create cascades.
For example I do not use evolving wilds. I have faced decks that use it.
Once in a blue moon, the single gem destroyed trigger cascades.
Now I can presume(presume being keyword here) that since dragon destroys triple the amount, once in a blue moon becomes once in a while.

Also your logic about the utility of mana for utility effect cards looks flawed to me. If you are I. A stage of the game where you are working to establish board then you will place creature on top and want mana to go to those creatures so mana gained on first card will be better.
If you are in a stage where you already did that, well usually you ahould(as I do) charge some utility cards to keep the status quo so will bring those utility card up front.
When the kind of cards you need to play change AND the same turn right after you draw the card for the new scenario then old one is better(assuming on the same turn the mana reduction is decisive to cast that card).

To me if they kept previous cost then it would have been a nerf(not big but still a nerf)
With current state still looks a buff to me.

Abbot well... Unlikely the fact gem destruction is wider will on average net 3 mana gain, but as I said, it was very good, will be less good, but still good.

span_argoman

I won't argue about the once in a blue moon vs once in a while effect for Avaricious Dragon. Whether once in a blue moon or in a while the average is likely to be less than 3 mana per turn. Saving 3 mana on summoning the creature may offset that by some but not that much imo. I'll just agree that the reduced cost and the new denial effect is nice to have in lieu of the old effect being removed.

Your analysis of stage 1 & 2 is fair but it shows a difference in our playstyles. Yes usually well-piloted top decks will be in stage 2, especially if you just spent 18 mana summoning out Avaricious Dragon. But I play with the principle that even in stage 2, I would rather summon out more creatures if possible because speed is key in QB and more creatures on the board means the game ends faster.

I will only charge up spells which I feel are necessary to play immediately when the situaition changes or which setup a combo play. Otherwise it's creature first to speed up the game. Avaricious Dragon allows you to keep your focus on creatures (and discounting newly drawn creatures) while being able to play your utility spells when you need them.

Because I rather only charge utility spells when I need them it's not a matter of the spell being useful the turn after I draw it, but rather being able to be cast when the situation changes. There are many cases for that in Red.

You want Exquisite Firecraft to kill Outland Colossus before it gets renowned, or to kill the opponent's Skysnare Spider / Dwynen so your Enbermaw-boosted Iroas's Champion can deal 14 damage to the opponent instead of delaying the match a turn.

Fiery Bloodlust at 3 mana is much easier to overspill from a summon to benefit from the Haste than at 6 mana. Or if you need to cast two or more spells in the same turn the reduced cost makes it that much easier.

You may think it's insignificant to optimise like that but reducing average match time by 30 seconds (1 round in-match approximates 15 to 20 seconds) saves you a lot of time in real life. If we take a target goal of 300 points (for easy calculation), that's 50 games which means you save half an hour of real-life time. If you're fighting for top 10 every QB you're probably saving at least 2 to 3 hours each week. That's my philosophy.

Morphis

Well fair enough I usually try to set my game so I am I such a position that I am already able to fight anything so I spend less time evaluating my moves and get more QB wins.

We achieve the same goal in different ways it seems, probably based on different decks too(probably you play Chandra mostly, I use nissa instead).

Overall all this stuff need proper check in game and it's time! Patch is out!

nexus13

The text on the new version of Abbot doesn't mention fetching a card. The release notes implied you should still fetch a card just not get any many gain for it.

khurram

"David wrote:

Moore"]

• Buy a Battle for Zendikar Fat Pack and gain a guaranteed extra Rare Oath of the Gatewatch card

Well, this is misleading..... you dont get an extra guaranteed rare. Just a random uncommon card. Please explain

Morphis

nexus13 wrote:

The text on the new version of Abbot doesn't mention fetching a card. The release notes implied you should still fetch a card just not get any many gain for it.

Tested and it DOES NOT fetch a card.
Based on notes(and common sense) most likely a bug.

wurtnik

• Buy a Battle for Zendikar Fat Pack and gain a guaranteed extra Rare Oath of the Gatewatch card

I just bought a fatpack and didn't receive a rare OGW. Got seed Guardian, which is uncommon, but the only reason I bought the fatpack (luckily happenened on 1st one as I was planning on getting multiples) was because I read this and wanted to get a head start on the new rares.

majincob

wurtnik wrote:

• Buy a Battle for Zendikar Fat Pack and gain a guaranteed extra Rare Oath of the Gatewatch card

I just bought a fatpack and didn't receive a rare OGW. Got seed Guardian, which is uncommon, but the only reason I bought the fatpack (luckily happenened on 1st one as I was planning on getting multiples) was because I read this and wanted to get a head start on the new rares.

Thanks for the warning, I was on the fence about buying some fat packs.

nerdstrap

the changes to Avaricious Dragon are nerf/enhancement IMO - at the start of every turn you potentially destroy 3 gems, and Magmatic Insight now draws, then destroys gems, potentially causing a cascade that then casts those drawn cards! I've been using it this QB (since Chandra's 1st ability also got mistakenly reverted) for some super OP wins

soultwist

wurtnik wrote:

• Buy a Battle for Zendikar Fat Pack and gain a guaranteed extra Rare Oath of the Gatewatch card

I just bought a fatpack and didn't receive a rare OGW. Got seed Guardian, which is uncommon, but the only reason I bought the fatpack (luckily happenened on 1st one as I was planning on getting multiples) was because I read this and wanted to get a head start on the new rares.

• Buy a Battle for Zendikar Fat Pack and gain a guaranteed extra Rare Oath of the Gatewatch card
Oath of the Gatewatch Boosters are obtainable as rewards from the Oath of the Gatewatch event. For a limited time, you will also receive one Oath of the Gatewatch Booster per Battle for Zendikar Big Box you purchase.

Each Oath of the Gatewatch Booster contains 5 cards from the set, and has a guaranteed Rare in every Booster.

The wording is very tricky here, you get a bonus Oath of the Gatewatch booster pack and all OGW booster packs contain a guaranteed rare. But it does say EXTRA! I did not get an extra but I did get some OGW rares. If you did not get the rare in your OGW booster then you got screwed. I didn't really pay attention to where my cards came from so I can say for sure that mine had one but suspect it did.

wurtnik

The Booster (with a guaranteed rare) is if you get a big box. The guaranteed rare (without booster) was stated for fatpack purchases.

I bought a fatpack and didn't get a rare.

Morphis

If i could I would convert also the last animist awakening to runes.
That's how bad it became.
I think so far this is how it performed:

30% of the time it pays for himself. You use a card to do nothing.
30% does not even trigger anything: you wasted 5 mana and a card.
40% it does trigger a cascade: net gain here.

That is for the instant effect. The really bad thing is the other one.

If there are 8 or more gems....
That one(if it procs) 80% of the time will be nullified by opponent.
Good thing I started using nissa renewal a while ago...
Was trying again both ramps and this is the result.

RIP Animist awakening.

soultwist

wurtnik wrote:

The Booster (with a guaranteed rare) is if you get a big box. The guaranteed rare (without booster) was stated for fatpack purchases.

I bought a fatpack and didn't get a rare.

Sorry, you are right of course, I mis-read.

Morphis wrote:

If i could I would convert also the last animist awakening to runes.
That's how bad it became.
I think so far this is how it performed:

30% of the time it pays for himself. You use a card to do nothing.
30% does not even trigger anything: you wasted 5 mana and a card.
40% it does trigger a cascade: net gain here.

That is for the instant effect. The really bad thing is the other one.

If there are 8 or more gems....
That one(if it procs) 80% of the time will be nullified by opponent.
Good thing I started using nissa renewal a while ago...
Was trying again both ramps and this is the result.

RIP Animist awakening.

Yeah, I used it a lot and I think was a really great card. But where still lots of times that I'd get no match even with 8 on the board! Not as often as it helped me but often times it just set the board perfect for opponent. I haven't really tried it now.

Morphis

soultwist wrote:

Yeah, I used it a lot and I think was a really great card. But where still lots of times that I'd get no match even with 8 on the board! Not as often as it helped me but often times it just set the board perfect for opponent. I haven't really tried it now.

Trust, now it feels like 90% of the time will be the case.
Hope to get by some miracle mirropool for my last slot in nissa.
Tweaking the deck around but cannot find a good balance.

TheLaughingMann

May just be me, but I think this update upticked a huge surge in Red decks. What's worse is both Koth and Chandra have gotten increasingly hard to beat lately. With how cheap Chandra's first ability is, she can just spam for damage each turn with a regular supply of Loyalty points. And Koth...all he needs is at least 3 red gems and he can get a 12 cost card out in a single turn. Combined with his ability to shoot out various gems on the board...oye.

Morphis

Chandra has been stated to be a bug.

Koth, I predicted him going from zero to hero.

When Chandra is fixed there will be no reason to play her instead of Koth in my opinion.
They simply buffed Koth too much and in too many ways altogether.

TheLaughingMann

Yeah, I think Koth is going to outdo Chandra. As it is, Chandra got real popular with Koth. Four out of five battles I fought in the past hour were red decks...and a lot were running the same kinds of cards like Volcanic Rumbler, Forerunner of Slaughter, Abbot of Keral Keep...