Old Wallpaper, Game Stagnation, and the 4-gotten Tier

Stax the Foyer

With the changes to LTs, it's now just as easy, if not easier, for a new player to cover a 5* character than it is a 4* character. Given the massive power disparity between 4*s and 5*s, and the comparatively small resource disparity, the clear choice for a new player is to bypass the 4* tier almost entirely.

And that's the smart play, if you can pull it off. I'm not saying that there aren't some helpful 4*s. But if you didn't get them early, whether or not you get them before you have a workable 5* is entirely luck-based.

It didn't used to be that way. 4*s used to be a target worth chasing, with ISO costs that were justified by their benefits (well, some of them, at least). But then the developers released 5* characters with absurdly broken stats, AND pulled up the rope behind people by not letting people effectively buy 4* covers anymore. Along with the removal of the 1300 point fixed PvP cover and the continued addition of 4* characters, the ability to move beyond 3*s has almost completely been randomized.

What should happen? Ideally, a time machine should be used to go back in time and add 4* content when it could have been relevant. Since that seems unlikely, a few other suggestions:

4* PvPs - When 3*s were being released, 3* PvPs were the norm. Now that 5*s are being released, 3* PvPs are still the norm.

Compare the number of Patch PvPs to the number of X-Force Wolverine PvPs. I don't know how many Patch PvPs there have been, but I can tell you exactly how many X-Force Wolvering featured PvPs there have been: One. The same as every 4* character other than Elektra and Dino. If 4*s take drastically more ISO and effort to build, shouldn't we get to use them at least as much as our 3* characters?

With 4* PvPs, the featured packs would give people another chance to get covers for a specific 4*, the rewards could be tailored towards allowing people to move to the 4* tier, and those of us who have spent resources on 4*s could look at them with slightly less crippling regret. Whether they should be done in place of or in parallel with 3* PvPs is something that's been addressed quite thoroughly on the forums, but they've gotta start showing up somehow.

4* Lightning Rounds - Or at least, for the love of Thor, some variety. It's beyond embarrassing that the same 10 characters are still in LRs on repeat, that the developers can't be bothered to take whatever miniscule amount of effort it would take to rotate them. Even if you leave them as 3* characters, there are 30 other 3* characters that it would be nice to use sometimes.

Instead, we spend more time with Ragnarok either as an opponent or a teammate than we do almost any other character in the game. He's the walking embodiment of design inertia and wasted opportunity.

More Fixed 4* Cover Rewards - If you want people to use 4* characters, they have to have a chance to cover them before they move on to 5* land. The only fixed 4* covers rewards in the game are the 1000 point cover in PvP, and the very top progression awards in PvE. The PvP cover lets people cover a 4* at the blistering rate of two covers per year, or so. The PvE ranking rewards are so throttled that only 1% of the playerbase is allowed to earn them. Neither is a realistic path to covering a 4*, and neither is spending CP on anything other than maybe your 13th cover of a given 4*, when that CP has a 50% chance or so of earning you a 5* cover which is better in every way than a 4* cover, no matter which cover it is.

For new players, 4*s are a dead tier, a booby prize for not getting lucky enough to skip the 4* tier and jump right to 5*s. That might change, and it hopefully will, but if those changes happen tomorrow, they'll be happening more than a year too late. The game has already moved past the 4* tier, and yet there's a constant flow of new releases further diluting the 4* pool and making it even harder for people to progress out of the 3* tier.

The developers have piled RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG instead of actually moving the game past 2014. There are flashes of great design with the new boss PvEs, but that just makes the rest of the game look that much more dated in comparison. It's like one room in the house getting an ultra-modern upgrade, but only getting to go into there a few times a year, and spending the rest of the time in the same floral wallpaper and shag carpet that's been there since the beginning.

The incredible stubbornness on the part of whoever's calling the shots has killed the 4* tier. If the developers are willing to tone back their RNG fetish a little bit, and create a little content for the 4* tier, it could help a lot.

OneLastGambit

Personally ibdont have much interest in the 5* tier. Its just a game of match damage and is settled by "my toy is tougher than your toy"

4* tier is at least getting some new mechanics to play around with and there's a lot of fun teams in that tier too. The 5* tier has no fun for me. I do like goblin and spidey but I'll never level any of my 5* past 350 because they're far less interesting the higher you go.

dsds

I have a feeling they will address the 4* tier. With the change to 25cp. I am reasonable certain that they will have tokens for 4* that can be purchased with less cp than the legendaries. This will solve a lot. PVP and PVE top progression rewards have changed to 25CP. Easy enough to add a token page with classic 4* tokens and latest 4* tokens.

This would also bridge the gap between earning classic 4* which can be earned through champ rewards and earning latest 4* which cannot be earned through champion rewards.

Jack0fAllGames

OneLastGambit wrote:

Personally ibdont have much interest in the 5* tier. Its just a game of match damage and is settled by "my toy is tougher than your toy"

4* tier is at least getting some new mechanics to play around with and there's a lot of fun teams in that tier too. The 5* tier has no fun for me. I do like goblin and spidey but I'll never level any of my 5* past 350 because they're far less interesting the higher you go.

Staying in the 4* tier is fine for established players, although those new mechanics you laud aren't of much benefit due to the untimeliness of covering and leveling a new character.

But players making the transition out of 3* land are almost more likely to have a usable 5* (which can be as low as 4-5 covers) before they have two properly-covered and maxed 4*. They have no incentive to become what we would call "4* players." This is a serious problem for the game moving forward.

Stax the Foyer

OneLastGambit wrote:

Personally ibdont have much interest in the 5* tier. Its just a game of match damage and is settled by "my toy is tougher than your toy"

4* tier is at least getting some new mechanics to play around with and there's a lot of fun teams in that tier too. The 5* tier has no fun for me. I do like goblin and spidey but I'll never level any of my 5* past 350 because they're far less interesting the higher you go.

So, you'd be on board with the suggestions, then? Since they're all about giving people a chance to experience those 4* mechanics, and giving more opportunities to use 4* characters.

Even if someone wants to stay in the 4* tier, whether or not players ever get to experience those new mechanics is almost completely randomized. You can get some covers from the new release PvP and PvE, try them out in the featured PvE node and the featured PvP, and then it's almost entirely luck as to whether you're going to get any more within the next 6 months.

xidragonxi

dsds wrote:

I am reasonable certain that they will have tokens for 4* that can be purchased with less cp than the legendaries. This will solve a lot. PVP and PVE top progression rewards have changed to 25CP. Easy enough to add a token page with classic 4* tokens and latest 4* tokens.

This would also bridge the gap between earning classic 4* which can be earned through champ rewards and earning latest 4* which cannot be earned through champion rewards.

This is so obvious that it's painful. Just do exactly what currently exists for 3*s and do it for 4*s. 4* PVPs with specific covers at a certain progression, and tokens that guarantee a 3* with a small chance at a 4*. It's SO OBVIOUS.

I love the 4* tier, it's by far the most diverse and interesting. I'm really looking forward to leveling Quake as soon as I'm done championing XFool, and I'd move on to either Nova or Punisher if I had enough covers for them. I've got enough covers for 5*s that I could be investing there but I'd rather spend the ISO on the tier that is actually fun.

Jack0fAllGames

dsds wrote:

I have a feeling they will address the 4* tier. With the change to 25cp. I am reasonable certain that they will have tokens for 4* that can be purchased with less cp than the legendaries. This will solve a lot. PVP and PVE top progression rewards have changed to 25CP. Easy enough to add a token page with classic 4* tokens and latest 4* tokens.

This would also bridge the gap between earning classic 4* which can be earned through champ rewards and earning latest 4* which cannot be earned through champion rewards.

With the number of 4* we have now, a token with no chance at a 5* would need to be dirt cheap (like 5 cp). 10 cp might appeal to players just moving into 4* that don't want a 5* to affect their scaling, but most players with even a halfway decent 4* roster are already looking toward building 5*.

dsds

Jack0fAllGames wrote:

dsds wrote:

I have a feeling they will address the 4* tier. With the change to 25cp. I am reasonable certain that they will have tokens for 4* that can be purchased with less cp than the legendaries. This will solve a lot. PVP and PVE top progression rewards have changed to 25CP. Easy enough to add a token page with classic 4* tokens and latest 4* tokens.

This would also bridge the gap between earning classic 4* which can be earned through champ rewards and earning latest 4* which cannot be earned through champion rewards.

With the number of 4* we have now, a token with no chance at a 5* would need to be dirt cheap (like 5 cp). 10 cp might appeal to players just moving into 4* that don't want a 5* to affect their scaling, but most players with even a halfway decent 4* roster are already looking toward building 5*.

I would say about 10cp for classic, and 15 cp for latest. There will be tons of demand for latest, because how else are you going to level your latest 4* since they are not even available through champion rewards. Keep in mind that this forum seems to be filled with vet players. New players may jump at the chance for a 4* instead of a 5* since scaling doesn't get affected badly. Even if the new token page is meant for new player to avoid them getting 5* too early, that is fine with me.

Most normal people don't like to hoard much. They want instant gratification. There will be some new players who will hoard cp until they are ready for a 5*. But most, I would assume would cash in their cp for some 4* to get that instant gratification. I only hoard to a certain extent because game changes are so unpredictable so I am not sure if my hoarding would be a wasted effort if in like a week, I decide not to play due to some horrible design decisions on the game. Yeah I cash all my cps and tokens except for the ddq.

Crowl

Jack0fAllGames wrote:

With the number of 4* we have now, a token with no chance at a 5* would need to be dirt cheap (like 5 cp). 10 cp might appeal to players just moving into 4* that don't want a 5* to affect their scaling, but most players with even a halfway decent 4* roster are already looking toward building 5*.

The best change they could make with tokens would be to make event tokens into a 3*/4* token, give them out less frequently if necessary to balance things, but have them slot in between heroics and legendaries.

They should also boost the chances of getting the essential and reward characters from those tokens by quite a lot too e.g. 10% each for the two 3*s and 5% each for the two 4*s.

TxMoose

the top alliances already have many players with 1-2 usable 5s and maybe 1, 2 or 3 champed 4s. I see em all the time. if I ever started over, I'm sure I'd end up the same way, although by then the individual pull rate for an individual 5* would be abysmal.

edit: as to stax's suggestions, I'm all for them. especially 4* LRs. that could be implemented prior to 4* full-on pvp as a testing ground. and more set covers (and less tokens) were needed long ago. at the time I hated the move off of the set 1300 cover because at the time I could spend a lot of hopping hp to go get it but a token was not worth it when it was likely starlord or sue. I also agree that the boss alliance events are the absolute best events in the game. I could go for at least 1 a month - rotate them as desired.

OneLastGambit

Stax the Foyer wrote:

OneLastGambit wrote:

Personally ibdont have much interest in the 5* tier. Its just a game of match damage and is settled by "my toy is tougher than your toy"

4* tier is at least getting some new mechanics to play around with and there's a lot of fun teams in that tier too. The 5* tier has no fun for me. I do like goblin and spidey but I'll never level any of my 5* past 350 because they're far less interesting the higher you go.

So, you'd be on board with the suggestions, then? Since they're all about giving people a chance to experience those 4* mechanics, and giving more opportunities to use 4* characters.

Even if someone wants to stay in the 4* tier, whether or not players ever get to experience those new mechanics is almost completely randomized. You can get some covers from the new release PvP and PvE, try them out in the featured PvE node and the featured PvP, and then it's almost entirely luck as to whether you're going to get any more within the next 6 months.

Sorry stax how rude I responded without actually addressing your changes.

Yes I would be very happy with those changes, I'd much rather earn 4* covers than tokens as i would rather stay in 4* until there is more diversity in 5* and less reliance on brute force

udonomefoo

Stax the Foyer wrote:

4* Lightning Rounds It's beyond embarrassing that the same 10 characters are still in LRs on repeat, that the developers can't be bothered to take whatever miniscule amount of effort it would take to rotate them. Even if you leave them as 3* characters, there are 30 other 3* characters that it would be nice to use sometimes.

Seriously. I want to go to their offices and stand over them ringing a bell and yelling SHAME! until they do something about this.

DFiPL

udonomefoo wrote:

Stax the Foyer wrote:

4* Lightning Rounds It's beyond embarrassing that the same 10 characters are still in LRs on repeat, that the developers can't be bothered to take whatever miniscule amount of effort it would take to rotate them. Even if you leave them as 3* characters, there are 30 other 3* characters that it would be nice to use sometimes.

Seriously. I want to go to their offices and stand over them ringing a bell and yelling SHAME! until they do something about this.

The Code of Atonement

Eec411

I'm glad someone else picked up on my suggestion!

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=43709

KGB

As someone who is in the 3* transition stage I agree 100% with what Stax wrote about the 4* tier being irrelevant.

The problem is that his changes won't help much for new players. That's because even if the game handed out 1 4* cover a day (say via a new DDQ event) that's 365 covers a year or roughly 10 covers for 36 characters (closing in on 36 rapidly and will hit 40 by year end). Assuming the other 3 could be lucked into via LTs/Events you can cover your 4* in a year at this rate. But that that still leaves the small matter of ISO required to level them. *Hundreds of Thousands* of ISO just to level 1 character to max!

Why would anyone invest a year of time + hundreds of thousands of ISO to max a 4* character when they can just start immediately at L270 with a 5* character who is way more powerful? The ISO costs literally have to drop in half (or less) to make it worth while to level up 4* characters.

For those who say there is no diversity, just wait a bit. By the end of the year there will be 10 5*'s or more. By this time next year there will likely be 15. Each and every day 4* become more irrelevant for new players. It's going to be 2/3* to 5* transition.

KGB

smkspy

Even just a slot for a specific 4 star cover in progression awards for pve would be enough for me.


And it's pretty silly that I can buy 25 cp LT but have zero chance at older 5 star characters yet can still get an IW or star lord from them.

Phumade

xidragonxi wrote:

I love the 4* tier, it's by far the most diverse and interesting. I'm really looking forward to leveling Quake as soon as I'm done championing XFool, and I'd move on to either Nova or Punisher if I had enough covers for them. I've got enough covers for 5*s that I could be investing there but I'd rather spend the ISO on the tier that is actually fun.

4* tier is great. I really do like the diversity of powers and how they work together. I wish we had more opportunities to use our 4* more often. I.e. 4* content

Pylgrim

5*s are sadly here to stay and nerfing them is out of suggestion as the amount of enraged whales demanding tens of thousands of dollars of refunds would send the game and the company crashing down in a fire. However, I do see an easy to implement solution that would greatly diminish the impact of 5*s in the game and the other tiers: nerf the beginning of the curve of of the 5* stat progression, but not the end! If level 350 (and beyond) 5*s remain as powerful as they are now, whales who invested all that money to max them won't have reason to complain. On the other hand, if 1-cover 5*s started at, say, level 140 with stats similar (or slightly superior) to a 4* of similar level, getting randomly 1 or 2 of them wouldn't either destroy the scaling of players in lower tiers, not allow/encourage them to skip whole tiers of transition. If so, the Iso needed to max them could also be spread over the new curve so there would be no one taking a loss from this measure.

Either implementing this or not, all the measures suggested in the OP are much needed and badly overdue.

TxMoose

Pylgrim wrote:

...nerf the beginning of the curve of of the 5* stat progression, but not the end! If level 350 (and beyond) 5*s remain as powerful as they are now, whales who invested all that money to max them won't have reason to complain. On the other hand, if 1-cover 5*s started at, say, level 140 with stats similar (or slightly superior) to a 4* of similar level...

I still can't figure out why 5s weren't started in the 180-200 range. that is naturally where they should have started if you look at the other rarities and where they start/finish. 255 really borks scaling for too many players that have access to LTs. no way the pull back on that though - that small young feline is out of the proverbial bag.

Felessa

I totally agree, specially in the More Fixed 4* Cover Rewards part, like a 4* cover (essential) in PvE progression Rewards or a Big Enchilada with a 4* cover (DDQ). As someone with more 1.2KK ISO stored, but without where to spend... this would be really helpful, because I don't have not a single one 4* max covered! Covers just don't come... I would be glad even with IWs, StarLs or Chulks

And I'm another one that don't care about 5*s too... if they come, ok; if not, better.

Dayv

Felessa wrote:

I totally agree, specially in the More Fixed 4* Cover Rewards part, like a 4* cover (essential) in PvE progression Rewards or a Big Enchilada with a 4* cover (DDQ). As someone with more 1.2KK ISO stored, but without where to spend... this would be really helpful, because I don't have not a single one 4* max covered! Covers just don't come... I would be glad even with IWs, StarLs or Chulks

And I'm another one that don't care about 5*s too... if they come, ok; if not, better.

There's a dead zone in PvP progression rewards between 1000 and 1300 that cries out to be filled. And they could add something around 1500, too.