An evil suggestion

OneLastGambit

I'm actually surprised by how many seem to be ok with this idea.

To address a couple of responses:

I prefer progression (someone mentioned I made it sound bad) because it's fair. I like fair.

Rich get richer? Yep they will but I'm not competing with those psychos anyway so I want their psychopathy to be rewarded with extreme hostility to disincentivize their behaviour. When they stop skewing the bell curve we will all be better off as the sytem will change.
Also... Do you really believe you'll ever catch them anyway? Like if I worked hard enough at my job I will one day catch up to Bill gates bank balance? They will always be ahead of me because I started later

To reiterate : I want and prefer progression system ( and this is from a t10 pve player who uses the bracket system to his advantage) but if we are stuck with this system then start punishing grinders with atrocious scaling.

Pylgrim

OneLastGambit wrote:

I'm actually surprised by how many seem to be ok with this idea.

To address a couple of responses:

I prefer progression (someone mentioned I made it sound bad) because it's fair. I like fair.

Rich get richer? Yep they will but I'm not competing with those psychos anyway so I want their psychopathy to be rewarded with extreme hostility to disincentivize their behaviour. When they stop skewing the bell curve we will all be better off as the sytem will change.
Also... Do you really believe you'll ever catch them anyway? Like if I worked hard enough at my job I will one day catch up to Bill gates bank balance? They will always be ahead of me because I started later

To reiterate : I want and prefer progression system ( and this is from a t10 pve player who uses the bracket system to his advantage) but if we are stuck with this system then start punishing grinders with atrocious scaling.

While I agree with most of what you are saying, I need to point out that grinders do not need "punishing". We just want that 4*clops cover, bro! We are not grinding like crazy because we enjoy it but because it is what is been asked of us to access a very rare and powerful reward (rare at least for me is. I have NEVER drawn 4clops from tokens). Grinders are not part of the problem, just victims of a stupid system like everybody else.

Quick Fire

OneLastGambit wrote:

.....

To reiterate : I want and prefer progression system ( and this is from a t10 pve player who uses the bracket system to his advantage) but if we are stuck with this system then start punishing grinders with atrocious scaling.

Many have asked for a progression system, but I chose to quote you because of your familiarity with the top ten. Being top ten brings daily rewards in covers, iso, hp and cp all beyond the current progression rewards. When they run The Gauntlet, we lose these daily rewards. If we go to a strictly progression based reward system, how do we think the rewards will look?

Can't we expect much less rewards for less competition? I would love not to have to compete, but I fear the loss of my daily rewards. Of course if the R&G system sticks, I can kiss them goodbye anyway.

DFiPL

I'm perfectly okay with placement rewards existing. Just as I don't want to be pigeonholed into going to play PVP if I want a good ROI for my time spent, neither should higher-end players get forced into that.

But here's the key: not everybody wants competitive play, and certainly the forums have made it manifest that grinding isn't a thing players enjoy.

So my suggestion, if placement and progression MUST exist side by side (and Demiurge apparently feel that they must): turn progression rewards into actual progression rewards.

Keep node rewards; if someone wants to play for placement, those rewards are the carrot that keeps people moving towards the placement goal. Improve those rewards. Scale them relative to node strength. Someone who's put in the time to level their characters should not be getting the same rewards as someone who's either soft-capping or still in the 2->3* transition - especially since those harder fights are also longer fights. Reward the time people are spending playing your game. If you want to incentivize people to level their rosters, that will also help.

Decouple progression rewards from event point totals, to expand on what I said above. Make them progression rewards. Each node you clear would have both a one-time reward and the 1/7 node rewards. The one-time is a rung on the progression ladder. The node rewards remain for those who wish to grind for placement. If you clear every unlocked node in a sub, you get the top progression reward for that sub. Have the rewards increase for each subsequent sub, to reflect the ladder climb. If you clear every unlocked node, you hit 'max' progression. Congratulations. You may now farm node rewards or push for placement. Or maybe go play PVP.

Keep the CP as the top reward for the 4* essential node, but for the 2* and 3* nodes, have the top reward be a cover of the essential character. That's useful both to people who have the essentials championed and to people who maybe are playing the essential because they have a single cover of the character. Or, if that feels like too much, have an "essentials" progression. If you clear all three essential nodes in a sub, you get the sub 1 essential progression reward. Ditto subsequent subs. Clear all the essential nodes in an event, you get max essential progression.

How would that look, with only 9, 12 or 21 total nodes? Good question. Let me spitball that.

9 essential nodes:

70 ISO
standard token
2* essential cover
140 ISO
heroic token
3* essential cover
250 ISO
event token
4* essential cover

12 essential nodes:

70 ISO
standard token
boost (anything but critical for the love of all that's holy)
2* essential cover
140 ISO
heroic token
stockpile
3* essential cover
250 ISO
event token
25 HP
4* essential cover

21 essential nodes:

70 ISO
standard token
non-critical boost
health pack
100 ISO
standard token
2* essential cover
140 ISO
heroic token
stockpile
health pack
250 ISO
heroic token
3* essential cover
500 ISO
event token
25 HP
stockpile
health pack
1000 ISO
4* essential cover

Obviously tinker with the non-cover rewards as needed, but the thrust is: someone with only a single essential is still able to get a cover for that essential from the "essentials" progression. Two essentials? Covers for each of them are possible. Got 'em all? Great. If you clear each essential node, you will get a cover for each essential over the course of the event.

Assuming the regular progression rewards don't change in their transition from point-based rewards to node-clear-based rewards (some stretching/filler might be necessary to convert them directly, I admit), someone with all three essentials would see a structure wherein they'd get one cover for each essential through unlocked play, and potentially one for each essential through essential node progression. That helps those who are either more casual players, or who simply don't have the interest in competitive PVE.

People who DO play competitive PVE would obviously be able to earn those same rewards, in addition to whatever their grinding earns them from placement.

hodayathink

Polares wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

Conspiracy theory time... With this last PVE test.. and the CP set insanely low.. maybe they are priming it for pure progression.


Think about it.. many of us had the CP with over 1/2 the event left.. if they check the numbers.. with progression set so low, it means they could add 6 more progression points easily.. 1 each of the 3* covers, and then the 4* covers..

I really really hope you are right.

If there is something EVERYBODY has agreed on, is that WE would ALL prefer a NON competitive PvE were we cant get ALL the rewards as progression rewards, and where we basically just play against the game, not against each other. A mode like this, with the same rewards (or more ) would greatly be enjoyed by everybody.

I think if you add enough rewards to PvE progression, you don't have to get rid of competition. If you widen the flow of 4* covers, I think you have less people getting upset that they aren't getting high enough for PvE placement, since they're still getting the 4* covers that they're doing it for now.

Quick Fire

hodayathink wrote:

Polares wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

Conspiracy theory time... With this last PVE test.. and the CP set insanely low.. maybe they are priming it for pure progression.


Think about it.. many of us had the CP with over 1/2 the event left.. if they check the numbers.. with progression set so low, it means they could add 6 more progression points easily.. 1 each of the 3* covers, and then the 4* covers..

I really really hope you are right.

If there is something EVERYBODY has agreed on, is that WE would ALL prefer a NON competitive PvE were we cant get ALL the rewards as progression rewards, and where we basically just play against the game, not against each other. A mode like this, with the same rewards (or more ) would greatly be enjoyed by everybody.

I think if you add enough rewards to PvE progression, you don't have to get rid of competition. If you widen the flow of 4* covers, I think you have less people getting upset that they aren't getting high enough for PvE placement, since they're still getting the 4* covers that they're doing it for now.

Four star covers are great. I'll never turn them down, especially being in the three to four transition, but honestly I need hp and iso. I even get plenty cp. Not being able to place in the top 50 will cripple my hp and iso way worse than any other impact that will be felt. And that's what the current test did to me. Took me out of the top 50 after a very long, consistent run of being in it.

hodayathink

Quick Fire wrote:

Four star covers are great. I'll never turn them down, especially being in the three to four transition, but honestly I need hp and iso. I even get plenty cp. Not being able to place in the top 50 will cripple my hp and iso way worse than any other impact that will be felt. And that's what the current test did to me. Took me out of the top 50 after a very long, consistent run of being in it.

That touches on another one of my issues with the ideas of getting rid of placement completely. That I can see them adding the equivalent final placement covers to the progression table, but not the equivalent ISO or HP. And that's not even thinking about the ISO and event tokens that are gained though the sub-events. Now, instead of adding an extra 2-5 rewards, we're talking about adding an extra 6-10 for 3/4 day events, or 15-20 for 7 day events.

BearVenger

Dekliko1978 wrote:

Surely people will complain that matches will rise to unbeatable levels, but hey improve your roster a bit more and maybe then you can beat it.

Exactly! Do you think Charles Xavier whined when he built his mansion by hand, in a swamp, in the summer, during a freak blizzard, and forgot to put the Danger Room in first?

IamTheDanger

I don't mind nodes scaling to my roster. I like a challenge every now again. But not all the time, every time. And definitely not challenged to the point if impossibility. But to place well, players have no choice but to grind for hours on end for 20 points at a time. It's no different than the prologue. Players spent hours grinding for 20 iso, which is not much fun. So the devs locked the prologue and then give us this new format where we don't have a choice if we want to place.

OneLastGambit

To address further points:

Pylgrim : perhaps punish is the wrong word. All I mean is that if people are going to grind and then moan about grinding (it is a choice remember) then perhaps we should make it so punishing to grind that the choice is taken away.

I have done some hard grinding for a t10 before (still crying about the insane grind I did for Bucky and missed t20 by 100 points) so I know how it feels. I don't want to punish players, I want to make them play the game so they enjoy it. Some players simply have to collect everything and grind mercilessly to do so and end up moaning that the game is stale and terrible because they are grinding (for covers they claim are useless next to oml anyway) a game format which they hate but yet won't stop playing it. I just want to encourage them to play to enjoyment and not for prize.

The thing is people complain that they want performance related prizes (grind hard get better prizes) which I am all for... Why not make it so that your performance is actually being assessed then instead of your ability to wake up to an alarm. THATS why the infinite scaling, you will get prizes relative to your skill and roster level and not whether you'll get up at 4 am for a grind


The point regarding loss of rewards in a progression system: this is a valid point and one that I had considered. I still think I'd rather have the progression system because of the freedom of time it affords the player (something I value above all else)

They could work all those prizes into progression instead...but we know how likely that is.

san

OneLastGambit wrote:

To address further points:
Pylgrim : perhaps punish is the wrong word. All I mean is that if people are going to grind and then moan about grinding (it is a choice remember) then perhaps we should make it so punishing to grind that the choice is taken away.

Gambit, it is my experience that individuals who moan and complain will simply find something new to moan and complain about once their initial problems are resolved.

Electrovirus

Daiches wrote:

The only problem with that system is that its just the rich get richer.
The biggest rosters can grind the most? Then they win.

This game is already like that

Turbosmooth

I want a new mode called Survival and it has 30 waves. The rewards become increasingly more awesome, but at the end of each wave you can cash out or let it roll. If you die, you get nothing and all new rewards are forfeit. If you finish wave 30, you get 30 CP.

Waves 1-9: ISO and 2* cover
Wave 10: 2 CP
Wave 11-19: ISO and 3* cover
Wave 20: 5 CP
Wave 21-29: ISO and 4* cover
Wave 30: 30 CP