An evil suggestion

OneLastGambit

Ok so we've had all these tests and we keep getting the same complaints... Too much grinding and scaling is wrong.

I think the problem is , people don't like grinding but they can't help themselves and need to be stopped. You can't lock the nodes after 3 or 4 clears (unless you switch to a progression system) because then you'll get ties.

What to do...

Here is my truly evil suggestion. Make one problem much worse to make the other much better.

Infinite scaling. You can hit the nodes as many times as you want, the points never decrease...but the scaling never stops increasing. Eventually people will get to a poi t where they can't/won't grind anymore.

I'll admit that this is very extreme and a suggestion which I'm making out of amusement...but if you can't stop yourself from grinding perhaps the game needs to stop you instead since you hate it so much.

Obviously my best case scenario is pve moves to a progression based system then there's no need for this extreme idea as nobody will be able to grind.

Wooodd

I suggested a similar thing a while ago Here but it garnered zero responses. Guess people aren't keen on this way forward.

I don't think its a bad idea.

Dekliko1978

It's actually not a very bad idea at all. The way scaling works now is just plain stupid, if you improve your roster too much you get the same rewards (crit boosts and 70 ISO woohoo!) as someone who softcaps, but infinite times harder matches.
With your proposal you can finally make use of your improved roster. Surely people will complain that matches will rise to unbeatable levels, but hey improve your roster a bit more and maybe then you can beat it.

Daiches

The only problem with that system is that its just the rich get richer.
The biggest rosters can grind the most? Then they win.

Wooodd

Daiches wrote:

The only problem with that system is that its just the rich get richer.
The biggest rosters can grind the most? Then they win.

The solution to this would be to set progression rewards such that 2* rosters can comfortably hit 3* rewards and push a little for more; 3*s hit 4* rewards etc...

That way suitable rewards are earnt relative to your roster.

XandorXerxes

The "competitive players" complaining about people hitting nodes 20 point nodes until the end of time is just silly. Of course they want to go back to the "skill" of being able to play right when nodes refresh and in time to grind them down, they have a system with their schedule that works. The current point structure doesn't represent any particular skill - the easy nodes are too easy for that, though you could argue the speed of clearing them is a type of skill - it just rewards those willing to put in the time and effort. It's just like a Diablo ladder - the people who can clear mobs with ideal builds the fastest are perhaps the most skilled, but it's the player who sits there 12 hours a day grinding that will top the leaderboards.

Yeah, it sucks to have to compete with someone who is willing to put in a lot more time and effort than you. That's the nature of competition. If a veteran with championed 4 and 5*s competes with a 2-3* transitioner and puts in the same amount of time, they will absolutely destroy the newer player. How could a level 110 Ares compete with a maxed out 4* or 5* in terms of damage? They just don't want to put in that level of effort.

That's not to knock the veterans who put in hours and hours of effort in the old system to compete. They are still devoting a large amount of time to the game, but timing the nodes is what let them compete against the people who could put in longer hours. With that mechanism gone, those people willing to clear easy nodes 700 times in one day took over. I can't imagine anyone keeping that pace up for a long period of time though, I imagine that will phase out in due time.

Pylgrim

That idea would be good if all rewards were progression and set up in a way that players being able to beat nodes past a certain level of difficulty (due to the strength of their rosters) get rewards worthy of their roster. As it is, 4* covers, in this case from one of the top 4*s are being held hostage and we, the people who need them have to hunker down and do what the system is asking us to do (in this case grinding 20 points for hours) simply because there's no other way to get them.

Malcrof

Conspiracy theory time... With this last PVE test.. and the CP set insanely low.. maybe they are priming it for pure progression.


Think about it.. many of us had the CP with over 1/2 the event left.. if they check the numbers.. with progression set so low, it means they could add 6 more progression points easily.. 1 each of the 3* covers, and then the 4* covers..

Azoth658

Malcrof wrote:

Conspiracy theory time... With this last PVE test.. and the CP set insanely low.. maybe they are priming it for pure progression.


Think about it.. many of us had the CP with over 1/2 the event left.. if they check the numbers.. with progression set so low, it means they could add 6 more progression points easily.. 1 each of the 3* covers, and then the 4* covers..

DON'T TEASE ME!

I really hope they do move to progression. Alliance events go down so well simply because you aren't competing with players who are better but with the game itself. Oh and let's not forget the team work etc.

mpqr7

There should be alliance progression prizes as well, like with the boss fights. Many alliances don't do a lot of pve, but this would encourage them to do more.

Polares

Malcrof wrote:

Conspiracy theory time... With this last PVE test.. and the CP set insanely low.. maybe they are priming it for pure progression.


Think about it.. many of us had the CP with over 1/2 the event left.. if they check the numbers.. with progression set so low, it means they could add 6 more progression points easily.. 1 each of the 3* covers, and then the 4* covers..

I really really hope you are right.

If there is something EVERYBODY has agreed on, is that WE would ALL prefer a NON competitive PvE were we cant get ALL the rewards as progression rewards, and where we basically just play against the game, not against each other. A mode like this, with the same rewards (or more ) would greatly be enjoyed by everybody.

JVReal

Perhaps they could do a combination of these thoughts.

Incremental scaling up to 4, then remain constant for up to 10, then increment again after that.

This will allow the grinding to actually be comparable to your roster. "Rich get richer" is thrown around like it's a bad thing when it's a natural law of mathematics. 2 people can earn the same interest rate, but the person with higher principle will earn more interest.

Stronger rosters will push through higher scaling and grind more, earning the top rewards. Soft-capped rosters will still hit a wall and only progress as far as their rosters allow them. Everyone could still reach progression.

All of the grind would be eliminated if D3 made PVE pure individual progression, but we see they continually ignore that feedback. Most of the grind would be eliminated if they widened the reward range. Instead of top 1, top 10. Instead of top 5, top 50, etc. Instant release of pressure to grind.

TxMoose

not sure I like the infinite scaling idea, then pve will be dominated by the same guys pvp is dominated by. and transitioners have no vehicle to progress - they'd be basically down to ddq only.

as I went through the 3* progression, my impression of pve was a transition tool to bridge the gap between 2* play and full 3* play and above - basically opening up pvp as the real meat of the game. pve was something you settled for because your roster wasn't ready to handle pvp, other than maybe the 300 token. once you progressed enough to use pvp as a transition tool (hit 800+, step up to t100 pvp alliance), pve became much less important. me and many others completely wrote pve off and I really enjoyed the game at that pace. basically was doing pvp, ddq, and LRs and just a dabble of pve here and there.

....then they added LTs to pve. and then 4*s to t10. and everyone who had written pve off was driven back into it. and these were top players that knew how to score, basically squeezing out the middle. ever since then, pve just seems unbalanced. off. that's why they keep trying to tinker with it. most top-tier don't want to have to play pve, but as long as the iso shortage is so severe and premium rewards are there, the premium players will fill the top of the brackets.

not sure how removing the premium rewards from pve would go over. probably like a lead balloon, but I think many would be happier with the rhythm. I plan on going light on pve, but I feel like I need 2-3 more maxed before I do. maybe take a break after CW2. like most Thursdays, I'm feeling the burn.

SnowcaTT

Polares wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

Conspiracy theory time... With this last PVE test.. and the CP set insanely low.. maybe they are priming it for pure progression.


Think about it.. many of us had the CP with over 1/2 the event left.. if they check the numbers.. with progression set so low, it means they could add 6 more progression points easily.. 1 each of the 3* covers, and then the 4* covers..

I really really hope you are right.

If there is something EVERYBODY has agreed on, is that WE would ALL prefer a NON competitive PvE were we cant get ALL the rewards as progression rewards, and where we basically just play against the game, not against each other. A mode like this, with the same rewards (or more ) would greatly be enjoyed by everybody.

I also hope you are right, and had the same conspiracy thought. It's why I put up a suggested cover model in couple of places. If you turn off rubber-banding permanently (and no reason to have it if you are on progressions), it's easy to put out a model that says:

4 clears 4* cover #1
5 clears (???)
6 clears 4* cover #2
7 clears CP progression
8 clears 4* cover #3

They tested how many would go after the 4-clear model; now they could easily expand it.

Azoth658

SnowcaTT wrote:

Polares wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

Conspiracy theory time... With this last PVE test.. and the CP set insanely low.. maybe they are priming it for pure progression.


Think about it.. many of us had the CP with over 1/2 the event left.. if they check the numbers.. with progression set so low, it means they could add 6 more progression points easily.. 1 each of the 3* covers, and then the 4* covers..

I really really hope you are right.

If there is something EVERYBODY has agreed on, is that WE would ALL prefer a NON competitive PvE were we cant get ALL the rewards as progression rewards, and where we basically just play against the game, not against each other. A mode like this, with the same rewards (or more ) would greatly be enjoyed by everybody.

I also hope you are right, and had the same conspiracy thought. It's why I put up a suggested cover model in couple of places. If you turn off rubber-banding permanently (and no reason to have it if you are on progressions), it's easy to put out a model that says:

4 clears 4* cover #1
5 clears (???)
6 clears 4* cover #2
7 clears CP progression
8 clears 4* cover #3

They tested how many would go after the 4-clear model; now they could easily expand it.

Dream come true

TxMoose

dream come true if they just removed all timers. period. if they still make you play 'optimal' to get there, the 24hr timer sucks. I think it any timer exists to avoid ties but ties wouldn't matter in progression only events.

san

I don't mind this idea at all, but the scaling needs to all start at the same level and go up for everyone by the same amount. This way, it would be fair for all players, and those with stronger rosters would be able to go on longer (the devs have already stated they want to rewards stronger rosters, not softcapping).

Yes, the rich would get richer to some degree, but if the progression rewards are reasonable, I see no problem with that.


As for those that have the time to grind out thousands of points in twenty point matches, I think we all need to remember that they may win the event, but they have greatly lost in time for life. They are likely abandoning responsibilities such as jobs, families, and friends, and no amount of e-currency will bring those things back to them. We ought to feel empathy for such individuals, rather than express hate towards their addiction to this game.

Dragon_Nexus

OneLastGambit wrote:

You can't lock the nodes after 3 or 4 clears (unless you switch to a progression system)

It's interesting that you seem to be saying that like it's a bad thing.

OneLastGambit wrote:

What to do...

Here is my truly evil suggestion. Make one problem much worse to make the other much better.

Infinite scaling. You can hit the nodes as many times as you want, the points never decrease...but the scaling never stops increasing. Eventually people will get to a poi t where they can't/won't grind anymore.

I'll admit that this is very extreme and a suggestion which I'm making out of amusement...but if you can't stop yourself from grinding perhaps the game needs to stop you instead since you hate it so much.

Obviously my best case scenario is pve moves to a progression based system then there's no need for this extreme idea as nobody will be able to grind.

Which will just end up with the rich getting richer. Can't beat the level 450 nodes? Well guess you're not going to break the top 100 then. Good luck progressing past the 2* league!

Skygazing

Dragon_Nexus wrote:

Which will just end up with the rich getting richer. Can't beat the level 450 nodes? Well guess you're not going to break the top 100 then. Good luck progressing past the 2* league!

To add to this, it creates a stunted and contradictory prize/reward system. The idea of trying to place higher is to make progress on your roster, but the people who would be able to take the top prizes in this system (4* covers) would be solid 5* players who don't really need them. Sure it's a few champ levels, that doesn't do much of anything for them, and stunts progress for lower rosters that actually need them.

MrCroaker64

I'm sure that I am in the minority here, at least for the folks that use the forums, but I really like the new system that is being tested.

I personally don't have the time to play PVE "competitively" period, so placement is not something that I can worry about. However, with the way R&G was set up, as well as some of the previous tests, I was able to play when and where I had time, not spend any more time then I have in the past (4 clears) and easily get to max progression. For me, this hits all my metrics and any additional rewards that I get for placement is just fine.

Would I like to get Top 50, or even Top 10, for the additional covers? Of course I would. But to do so would mean a fundamental change in how I approach this game, and I am not willing to make that kind of commitment in both time and money.

Croaker.

scottee

For history's sake, since the forum has a 2-week memory, the first "new PVE" test essentially scaled out most players before being able to max out points. Yes, it helps differentiate between roster strength. But everyone also said it was very unfun.

It's essentially saying "You're supposed to lose," but better rosters can play longer before they get there.

Though I'm actually not opposed to the idea. Just saying that most players would end up not liking the experience.