**[Movie]SPOILERS** Choosing sides on CW

Punatulkku

***SPOILERS*** DONT READ FURTHER


So, i saw civil war, and i kinda feel bad when siding with cap... He's the villain/bad guy in cw right?

I feel sorry for Tony

Mod Edit: Changed title to keep people who do not want spoilers from clicking

ClydeFrog76

There isn't a good or bad side, that's the point. Each has their valid arguments; it comes down to what every person believes ideologically.

Mawtful

I haven't seen the movie, but I've read the source story before and that definitely has a clearly defined villain. So I'm normally Team Cap and I will be for the movie - because Tony's already been established as a "villain" over the last few movies he's been in (specifically, Iron Man 2/3 & Avengers 2), and because it's Cap's movie and I'm pretty sure that the MCU is probably aiming to bring its Avengers line up closer to the All-New All-Different team.

In MPQ, however, it's Team Iron Man for the first run. There's just no way I'd choose Flaptain covers over Hulkbuster covers.

Crowl

Mawtful wrote:

I haven't seen the movie, but I've read the source story before and that definitely has a clearly defined villain. So I'm normally Team Cap and I will be for the movie - because Tony's already been established as a "villain" over the last few movies he's been in (specifically, Iron Man 2/3 & Avengers 2), and because it's Cap's movie and I'm pretty sure that the MCU is probably aiming to bring its Avengers line up closer to the All-New All-Different team.

It is more even in the movie than in the comics, cap's side is more to do with backing bucky than just being anti-registration and you don't have a bunch of villains on the pro-registration side either.

metallion

I'm trying to convince my alliance to go for iron man just for the hb covers. A group of them are steadfastly refusing to play for iron man due to the comics. Makes me wonder why are they so serious about this

Suddenreal

Punatulkku wrote:

***SPOILERS*** DONT READ FURTHER


So, i saw civil war, and i kinda feel bad when siding with cap... He's the villain/bad guy in cw right?

I feel sorry for Tony

Spoilers: Cap isn't the bad guy in Civil War. Don't forget, he saw SHIELD crumble in Winter Soldier because HYDRA had taken over the control of SHIELD, so it's no surprise when he wants to make sure that the Avengers is taken over by some unknown people. Like he said in the movie, what if they are sent somewhere they shouldn't be, or aren't allowed to be where they should be?

But Iron Man isn't the bad guy either. He has seen what the consequences of his actions were and understands he needs to be put on a leash. He has come to the realisation there needs to be supervision and all of them are too close to see the bigger picture (to quote a different comic "who watches the Watchmen?").

Both have valid points, being put on a leash means you can't go out and right the wrongs you see in the world, but it also means you can't run rampant with disregard of any consequences. It's not a black and white situation.

rainkingucd

Suddenreal wrote:

Punatulkku wrote:

***SPOILERS*** DONT READ FURTHER


So, i saw civil war, and i kinda feel bad when siding with cap... He's the villain/bad guy in cw right?

I feel sorry for Tony

Spoilers: Cap isn't the bad guy in Civil War. Don't forget, he saw SHIELD crumble in Winter Soldier because HYDRA had taken over the control of SHIELD, so it's no surprise when he wants to make sure that the Avengers is taken over by some unknown people. Like he said in the movie, what if they are sent somewhere they shouldn't be, or aren't allowed to be where they should be?

But Iron Man isn't the bad guy either. He has seen what the consequences of his actions were and understands he needs to be put on a leash. He has come to the realisation there needs to be supervision and all of them are too close to see the bigger picture (to quote a different comic "who watches the Watchmen?").

Both have valid points, being put on a leash means you can't go out and right the wrongs you see in the world, but it also means you can't run rampant with disregard of any consequences. It's not a black and white situation.

Totally agree. The best part of the film is how much both sides are valid in the argument, unlike the comics. The comic story line is so clearly siding with Cap, but the film presents two very valid sides to the conversation.

Polares

rainkingucd wrote:

Suddenreal wrote:

Punatulkku wrote:

***SPOILERS*** DONT READ FURTHER


So, i saw civil war, and i kinda feel bad when siding with cap... He's the villain/bad guy in cw right?

I feel sorry for Tony

Spoilers: Cap isn't the bad guy in Civil War. Don't forget, he saw SHIELD crumble in Winter Soldier because HYDRA had taken over the control of SHIELD, so it's no surprise when he wants to make sure that the Avengers is taken over by some unknown people. Like he said in the movie, what if they are sent somewhere they shouldn't be, or aren't allowed to be where they should be?

But Iron Man isn't the bad guy either. He has seen what the consequences of his actions were and understands he needs to be put on a leash. He has come to the realisation there needs to be supervision and all of them are too close to see the bigger picture (to quote a different comic "who watches the Watchmen?").

Both have valid points, being put on a leash means you can't go out and right the wrongs you see in the world, but it also means you can't run rampant with disregard of any consequences. It's not a black and white situation.

Totally agree. The best part of the film is how much both sides are valid in the argument, unlike the comics. The comic story line is so clearly siding with Cap, but the film presents two very valid sides to the conversation.

I have also seen the movie (Marvel Europe Power!) and Cap is really the good guy, at first both Tony and Cap have valid points, but as the movie starts unwrapping Tony's points get diluted, and he gets transformed into a dog of Talbot first and then into a guy that just wants revenge. But at least it is much better than in the comics. Once again the ending is soooo convenient for the bad guy.

PS: Man Spiderman is so kitty good!!! And Antman is also great!
PS: Vision is so laaaaame, he was much better as Jarvis, I hope Thanos comes soon and removes the mind gem soon enough

As Cap said in Avengers 2, "Language".

Suddenreal

Polares wrote:

PS: Man Spiderman is so kitty good!!! And Antman is also great!

Man, I hope when they do a Spider-Man movie they skip the origin story. There's no need for that anymore (how many times does uncle Ben need to die anyway? What did he ever do to be treated like that!) and any relevant information can just as easily be told or shown in flash backs. But yes, Spidey was amazing (unlike the Amazing Spider-Man).

Btw, nice pun

Figure15

Suddenreal wrote:

Polares wrote:

PS: Man Spiderman is so kitty good!!! And Antman is also great!

Man, I hope when they do a Spider-Man movie they skip the origin story. There's no need for that anymore (how many times does uncle Ben need to die anyway? What did he ever do to be treated like that!) and any relevant information can just as easily be told or shown in flash backs. But yes, Spidey was amazing (unlike the Amazing Spider-Man).

Btw, nice pun

More aunt may pls. Thx.

mpqr7

Please retitle this "Movie Spoilers", as it was unclear to me whether this was for the game or for the movie. Also, shouldn't this be moved into off-topic, since it doesn't specifically relate to MPQ itself?

Wolarsen

I am 100% going IronMan team because of rewards; my sympathies are however for Captain, at the very least he has never released a killer robot that almost destroyed the planet!!!!

GrimSkald

Haven't seen it yet, but I'm just going to leave this here (a song by a friend of mine, my wife is actually in it too,) it pretty much sums up my opinion of Captain America's ethics:

https://murderballads.bandcamp.com/track/the-ballad-of-captain-americas-disapproving-face

Blahahah

I've read the comics, not to spoil but what with the birth of Ragnarok and all, Tony has a habit of accidentally creating killer robots.

Skygazing

Just got home a little while ago from my viewing, and I'm kind of surprised with how I felt about the whole conflict.

At the end of the day I actually empathize and side more with Tony. Certainly a grey area, but I do lean more towards his side of things.

Polares wrote:

... Cap is really the good guy, at first both Tony and Cap have valid points, but as the movie starts unwrapping Tony's points get diluted, and he gets transformed into a dog of Talbot first and then into a guy that just wants revenge.

I have the exact opposite opinion; for me it's definitely Steve whose points get diluted/devalued. He starts out just disagreeing with the Sokovia Accord, then ends up fighting for Bucky out of sheer loyalty, then goes chasing after the other winter soldiers. In doing so he causes tons of collateral damage, only proving exactly what the UN was talking about. In doing so he writes off someone he could've trusted all along. And in doing so he plays right into the hands of someone else.

Tony isn't at all a "dog of Talbot", he does what he thinks is right and that happens to align with the task force. And when his views don't anymore, he basically tells them to go screw themselves. And yeah he's emotional and driven by revenge at the end, but Cap was driven by emotion for the entire first half of the story, and had no real evidence that Bucky was framed. By the end it feels like he kind of destroyed a lot of his own arguments.

And don't forget that everyone else was right about the whole Bucky situation.

Steve: "Guys Bucky is good and we shouldn't be trying to hunt him."
Everyone: "Steve he's unstable and has already hurt/killed a lot of people."
Steve: "Screw you guys my friendship is stronger than Hydra brainwashing."
The rest of the plot unfolds.
Bucky: "Steve I'm too dangerous it's best that I'm contained where I can't hurt/kill anyone else."
Steve: "..."

Wolarsen

Re: **[Movie]SPOILERS** Choosing sides on CW
by Skygazing » Fri May 06, 2016 9:38 am

And don't forget that everyone else was right about the whole Bucky situation.

Steve: "Guys Bucky is good and we shouldn't be trying to hunt him."
Everyone: "Steve he's unstable and has already hurt/killed a lot of people."
Steve: "Screw you guys my friendship is stronger than Hydra brainwashing."
The rest of the plot unfolds.
Bucky: "Steve I'm too dangerous it's best that I'm contained where I can't hurt/kill anyone else."
Steve: "..."

We should rewind a Little there:
Tony: "Guys Ultron is good and we shouldn't be trying to hunt him."
Everyone: "Tony he's unstable and has can hurt/kill a lot of people."
Tony: "Screw you guys my tech is stronger than anything."

Overall the avengers prevented far greater damage than any havoc they may cause (skrull invasion/ huge chunk of mountain thrown back to earth/ whatever crossbones was carrying in the vial), and Tony feels remorse because he knows he screwed it up with Ultron (imo so cheesy sequences about the death of the volunteer boy). I understand perfectly that foreign countries feel outraged if Avengers act within their boundaries without permission; but UNation supporting something like Sokovia treat? Laughable, considering they practically give full support to USA to act against evil wherever they find suitable. Very much as Captain America do, btw.

And ultimately, Steve is right; Bucky is not dangerous until the "support force" sets him on a tray to the bad guy (any similarities with any known Zemo are remarkabily small, btw). Steve could most probably have talked it out if left the chance with Bucky, maybe putting him directly under Avengers supervisión.

In the movie I find Steve blindly loyal, Tony plain emo. No one is 100% right, but I'd go with Steve, eyes closed.

Polares

Skygazing wrote:

Just got home a little while ago from my viewing, and I'm kind of surprised with how I felt about the whole conflict.

At the end of the day I actually empathize and side more with Tony. Certainly a grey area, but I do lean more towards his side of things.

Polares wrote:

... Cap is really the good guy, at first both Tony and Cap have valid points, but as the movie starts unwrapping Tony's points get diluted, and he gets transformed into a dog of Talbot first and then into a guy that just wants revenge.

I have the exact opposite opinion; for me it's definitely Steve whose points get diluted/devalued. He starts out just disagreeing with the Sokovia Accord, then ends up fighting for Bucky out of sheer loyalty, then goes chasing after the other winter soldiers. In doing so he causes tons of collateral damage, only proving exactly what the UN was talking about. In doing so he writes off someone he could've trusted all along. And in doing so he plays right into the hands of someone else.

Tony isn't at all a "dog of Talbot", he does what he thinks is right and that happens to align with the task force. And when his views don't anymore, he basically tells them to go screw themselves. And yeah he's emotional and driven by revenge at the end, but Cap was driven by emotion for the entire first half of the story, and had no real evidence that Bucky was framed. By the end it feels like he kind of destroyed a lot of his own arguments.

And don't forget that everyone else was right about the whole Bucky situation.

Steve: "Guys Bucky is good and we shouldn't be trying to hunt him."
Everyone: "Steve he's unstable and has already hurt/killed a lot of people."
Steve: "Screw you guys my friendship is stronger than Hydra brainwashing."
The rest of the plot unfolds.
Bucky: "Steve I'm too dangerous it's best that I'm contained where I can't hurt/kill anyone else."
Steve: "..."

The main point of cap is "We should not be controlled by governments with their own agendas", and that it is showed when they get a conveniently found picture of Buckey in a terrorist attack and then they decide, without any trial, that he should be shot on sight. Then Cap demonstrates that he was right when it was evident that Bucky was framed, and that he was trying to catch the man that framed him, the real enemy Zemo and the other Winter Soldiers which the Government was ignoring completely.

I have to say that it is a little bit odd because it looks like the Gov doesn't care about Bucky motivations or who is behind him, all Zemo's plot it is a little bit Deus Ex Machina so we can get to the final scene in Siberia (I think it was Siberia...).

Regardinbg Tony, around an hour in the movie, Talbot starts giving 36 hour ultimatums to Tony, so Tony works for Talbot (to minimize the damage done, in the government eyes, even if he doesn't want to), and later, he even goes to visit the other Avengers in prison, without doing anything for them. And when Tony gets to Siberia after he discovers Zemo, he basically says to Cap "You were right, I was wrong", just before he discovers what Bucky did in the past and then just gets berserk and doesn't care about anything else.

I think the movie makes a much better case for Tony and Cap than the comic counterpart as I said before, but as the movie unwraps, Tony faces the consequences of working for the government and someone like Talbot.

PS: The funny part is Panther, who basically just wants to do whatever he wants, have revenge anywhere he wants, but he is working for the guys that want more control

Vhailorx

If we are going with a spoiler discussion:

The movie works very hard to make sure that neither side is the "bad guy." actually, even the bad guy zemo is played as a sympathetic guy who goes too far because of trauma.

But in the end, I think the movie really wants us to fall on cap's side. He has the heroic prison rescue in the end, and even Tony starts to undermine his theoretical superior (ross) towards the end of the film. When the guy who argued "we need oversight" starts lying to the overseers and we are supposed to root for it, then the movie is clearly saying that ross is not the right person to run the avengers.

Skygazing

Wolarsen wrote:

We should rewind a Little there:
Tony: "Guys Ultron is good and we shouldn't be trying to hunt him."
Everyone: "Tony he's unstable and has can hurt/kill a lot of people."
Tony: "Screw you guys my tech is stronger than anything."

So what you're saying is that Tony acted in a way that was similar to Steve, and that Tony was wrong? Doesn't that out Steve in the wrong here?

I understand perfectly that foreign countries feel outraged if Avengers act within their boundaries without permission; but UNation supporting something like Sokovia treat? Laughable, considering they practically give full support to USA to act against evil wherever they find suitable. Very much as Captain America do, btw.

Yeah the writing for the UN and task force was definitely the weakest part of the movie for me. More on that in a second.

Polares wrote:

The main point of cap is "We should not be controlled by governments with their own agendas", and that it is showed when they get a conveniently found picture of Buckey in a terrorist attack and then they decide, without any trial, that he should be shot on sight. Then Cap demonstrates that he was right when it was evident that Bucky was framed, and that he was trying to catch the man that framed him, the real enemy Zemo and the other Winter Soldiers which the Government was ignoring completely.

I have to say that it is a little bit odd because it looks like the Gov doesn't care about Bucky motivations or who is behind him, all Zemo's plot it is a little bit Deus Ex Machina so we can get to the final scene in Siberia (I think it was Siberia...).

I feel like this is more the product of poor writing than anything else. In CA:TWS we see that tech exists that can alter a person's face, and by the time CW rolls around there's no way people would be unaware of it. And in the case of a terrorist attack they'd be doing everything possible to investigate and figure out exactly what happened in case there was some other organization or individuals involved. I mean, everyone thinks that Bucky was Hydra so why in the world would they just assume he was acting alone? It makes very little sense that the UN and task force would so blatantly ignore established plot points.

Also while Cap's main motivation starts that way, it becomes clear by the middle that his most important goal is to protect his friend. Had he used both himself and Bucky as leverage, he could've easily negotiated and made sure someone got to Zemo.
("Tony I'll cooperate, just please make sure to get someone to these coordinates as soon as possible.")

Regardinbg Tony, around an hour in the movie, Talbot starts giving 36 hour ultimatums to Tony, so Tony works for Talbot (to minimize the damage done, in the government eyes, even if he doesn't want to), and later, he even goes to visit the other Avengers in prison, without doing anything for them. And when Tony gets to Siberia after he discovers Zemo, he basically says to Cap "You were right, I was wrong", just before he discovers what Bucky did in the past and then just gets berserk and doesn't care about anything else.

Like you say, he's trying to minimize the damage done. He takes the 36 hour ultimatum because he's trying to help/protect Steve. It's clear that Tony is only willing to work with the task force for as long as he agrees with their motives/actions, given that as soon as Talbot (it's actually Ross, right?) imprisons the other Avengers he peaces out.

I also think you're giving him too little credit in regards to the prisoners, and Steve too much. Tony is cognizant enough to realize that acting emotionally rash is what's gotten them all into this mess. He recognizes that if he's going to get them out it has to be under the right circumstances, and I can guarantee he was working on a way to free them. Just breaking them out would be incredibly easy for him, all he'd really have to do was grab Vision and the rest would be history. But he'd only be proving their points while turning himself and the others into fugitives. Steve on the other hand elects to charge in despite this, because he does what he wants.

I think the movie makes a much better case for Tony and Cap than the comic counterpart as I said before, but as the movie unwraps, Tony faces the consequences of working for the government and someone like Talbot.

PS: The funny part is Panther, who basically just wants to do whatever he wants, have revenge anywhere he wants, but he is working for the guys that want more control

It's definitely way more morally complex than the comics. And while Tony has to deal with that, Cap has to face the consequences of acting impulsively and inflexibly.

And I think Panther is a lot like Tony in that regard. He's only going along with everything because for the moment their goals run parallel. Don't forget that he's also driven by the idea of being both warrior and king, and by his father's memory, so he'll want to be at least somewhat diplomatic.

Vhailorx wrote:

But in the end, I think the movie really wants us to fall on cap's side. He has the heroic prison rescue in the end, and even Tony starts to undermine his theoretical superior (ross) towards the end of the film. When the guy who argued "we need oversight" starts lying to the overseers and we are supposed to root for it, then the movie is clearly saying that ross is not the right person to run the avengers.

Went into this a bit up above. Cap's prison break, while certainly "heroic", is a rash move that suggests he didn't really learn much from this whole experience. Ross may not be the right person to boss the Avengers around, but it doesn't diminish the idea that they need to be held accountable in some way for what they do.

OneLastGambit

Interesting debate...

Steve falls on the side of choice. Tony does not. Its really as simple as that.

Bucky not only has no choice about whether or not He gets to stand trial (even Saddam got this surely we can give it Bucky?!) This is a fundamental aspect of justice system. You quite easily frame someone and get them killed because nobody is reviewing evidence . cap is right on this issue. Bucky should be given due process.

That's not the only choice which is trampled on. The choice to do the right thing is next - the ultimatum is : join our government project or stop helping people. What kind of government asks you to work for them or watch people suffer?
Cap decided that was a bad idea since helping people isn't something that should require employment. I could go and help someone in the street now, should I have to register into forced government employment? If you wanna use superpowers to bolster your argument then should Steven hawking have to work for the government? Intellect is a great asset and can be used for good or bad (ask oppenheimer)

Cap is right again.

The only time Tony is right is when he says they should make more of an effort to solve things without violence or be trained to limit it.

Cap starting motivation is to resist government control over civil liberty which also becomes save his friend Bucky (whose civil liberties are being disregarded) which then becomes proving that civil liberties are being discarded. Which part of that is wrong?

Tony starts as wanting to atone for his earlier mistakes and accept some control (he recognises he can't control himself) this is a good motivation. He even keeps this up all the way until the end when he just decides "who cares I'm gonna kill Bucky and forget the get thing I spent the whole movie fighting for"

While on the topic of Bucky there is another issue beyond his civil liberties being tra pled on...whether he is actually responsible for his crimes or not. An Alzheimer's patient cannot be tried for crimes, nor can a schizophrenic (when clinically diagnosed) so how can Bucky be held accountable for actions over which he had no control?

Lots of great debatable issues in this movie , I loved it.

Cap is right though

Vhailorx

Well, in the real world, stark has a point. It would be appropriate for society to impose some limitations on individuals who literally had superpowers.

But in a comics universe where heroes are demonstrably and perpetually good, and villains are equally, and oppositely bad, then it makes much more sense to support cap's position without reservation.