Post Mortem: Venom Bomb compared to the new EotS

ErikPeter

Two of MPQ's toughest PvE's came and went. I late-started VB and got my top 100 Punisher, first 4* reward in PvE since who knows when. Thanks, forum __Bracket Size__!

So the EotS test led to 38 pages of mostly complaints. After Venom Bomb, anyone else kind of feel like maybe we were too hard on it though? I'd take those Wolverine/Kishux2 nodes over Carnage/Mutationx2 any day of the week. And in EotS the grind was more brutal but at least I got almost full points while grinding for the (inevitable seventh pull) CP rewards.

I think the problem was trying to test/change too much all at once. Messing with the difficulty scaling AND the event format at the same time just means they have to sort out totally different subjects of feedback. I was pretty happy with the difficulty adjustment (would tone the first couple missions down a bit, just not down to insanely trivial like those in VB) and the event format was, well it has some problems but 'play when you want' is the right intent, at least.

GrumpySmurf1002

Venom Bomb still has actual trivial nodes at the base of it where you can expand your roster and limit health pack consumption, plus the initial pass through of the essentials/hard nodes are reasonably scaled. Those alone make it appreciably better than the test EotS.

If they had run the test with Venom Bomb, the Carnage + feeder nodes were likely to start at least 25 levels harder and ramp up to 100 or 150 levels harder, which would make it god awful to play.

Similarly, EotS typically is a pretty good/easy event for grinding some iso/tokens. Yes the Wolvie/Gorgon + feeder notes stink, but again they're as many as 100 levels easier than they were for the test, and it's only a maximum of 3/9 nodes with that level of difficulty.

Lastly, from an optimal play perspective, clearing easier nodes top to bottom once every 8 hours is light years better than clearing universally more difficult nodes 6 times straight.

PvE as a whole stinks, but I'll gladly take this Venom Bomb over a 'tested' one.

TxMoose

EotS was such a time and health pack hog, I gave up completely about day 3. I went and got some individual cp, but I could not find the 4-5 hours a day it needed. if that is the future of pve, i'll be disengaging from pve. I joined a fresh VB bracket on day 1 and eeked out a 20th place finish that netted me scores more iso/hp/cp than the weeklong EotS. personally I don't think 'we were too hard on it'. if they find a way that:

1) doesn't require more time
---1a) extended progression was an awful decision. 5 clears any time you want already gets you to the cp. I can't see any benefit here.
---1b) scaling required way too much time and gave no easier farmable nodes.
2) continues to allow using most of your roster (used ~60 characters in VB, used ~10 in EotS)
3) doesn't punish a leveled roster (leaderboards were mostly 3* players and soft-cappers)

..I may change my mind. but what was tested was awful.

cyineedsn

The EotS test got exactly as much negative feedback as it deserved. It was a horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible grind, and I was really happy to see the old format/scaling/trivial nodes back in Venom Bomb.

fmftint

T10 in both events, neither was a particularly pleasant experience

Polares

Venom Bomb with the new system would be a NIGHTMARE, worst event ever. Having to play against those Carnage+Venom+feeder or those symbiote nodes at max scaling would be a blood bath.

Imagine a 350-370 level Carnage firing red every three turns, just imagine that... (as reference my Carnage in the final node was 300, my max level enemies in EotS raised to 360). Do you have that image in your mind? Now imagine having to play that node 11 times, 11 times!!!!

JackTenrec

Scaling EoTS was a pain primarily for the time investment, compounded with the fact that so many wave nodes were required for progression but didn't provide any rewards.

Venom Bomb is just a pain. The ridiculous symbiote damage synergy plus the frequency of Symbiote Scythes makes it likely that you're not grinding the non-trivial nodes, either because a) you've run out of healthpacks or b) because you've thrown your phone across the room and broken it.

ErikPeter

Playing VB I was bored with the trivial nodes, but I guess when we're encouraged to clear them over and over it's important that they're really easy for speed (or roster diversity)'s sake. It's too bad they couldn't have found a middle ground. I definitely think EotS is the better event (regardless of system) because the token/ISO rewards are pretty good compared to the tinykittyness of symbiotes, but not getting any additional rewards for those waves is pretty annoying.

Polares wrote:

Venom Bomb with the new system would be a NIGHTMARE, worst event ever. Having to play against those Carnage+Venom+feeder or those symbiote nodes at max scaling would be a blood bath.

Imagine a 350-370 level Carnage firing red every three turns, just imagine that... (as reference my Carnage in the final node was 300, my max level enemies in EotS raised to 360). Do you have that image in your mind? Now imagine having to play that node 11 times, 11 times!!!!

Yeah, that's pretty awful. But wouldn't that kind of create a wall that actually sorts out the best players? YES, it's terrible, the 24 hour refresh completely undermines the "play when you want" thing.

I feel like it might be a step in the right direction if, for example, that node started out at like level 140 and only reached 300+ around the 7th clear. Eventually some players are just going to step back and say "not worth it" and the more committed players would win.

It's like the test was an unintentional, interesting psychology experiment that punished habitual players the most. Suddenly the 8-hour cycle became a 2x24 ultra-grind.

TxMoose

ErikPeter wrote:

I feel like it might be a step in the right direction if, for example, that node started out at like level 140 and only reached 300+ around the 7th clear. Eventually some players are just going to step back and say "not worth it" and the more committed players would win.

that could work if they balanced the scaling (and didn't extend progression). but the scaling they had clearly gave big advantages to soft cappers and 3* players that had 20-40 characters all the same level that could throw multiple compositions at nodes. I have 5 champed 4*s and both ice and cyke were boosted, so my average of my top 3 characters was 326. that means that nothing on my 90-character roster mattered except my maxed 4s and their support, which really sucked.

Phumade

I played both events competitively. In ETOS, I finished 3rd behind two WaG mercs. In Venom Bomb, 3rd behind behind a Dark Matter grinder and another optimal player. Of note, the rest of my Venom Bomb bracket included a 5* crewsader and several other strong grinders (for some reason it feels like I always get put into the death grinders brackets).

ETOS was longer but easier. Longer in the sense that you had to be able to play both the end grind and the starting grind. Easier in the sense that the grind didn't have to be optimal. You could take a break to let hp regen etc... After the 1st sub, I specifically decided not to buy or fish for hp (and overall I didn't feel pressured to buy healthpacks to keep up). As mentioned by many people, the scaling was off the chart. Nodes were hard enough that deciding to retreat was actually a viable strategy. (Speficially, if you knew you weren't going to get the IM40 battery charged in time, better to lose 1/3 health than let kishu go nuts and wipe the entire team). I would love it if they started the clock after 3 hits and collapsed value to 20 after 4 more. 7 plays per node is perfect. Scaling for non goon nodes was actually appropriate for my roster. The problem with goons is that after a certain point, they spam more CD than you can handle. Hand ninjas are bad but so is sniper and every other goon type (I think sniper and kishu are actually 4* level goons).

Venom Bomb was easy and stressful. Easy in the sense that 95% percent of the nodes were trivial to beat. (I have a near 5* roster) But stressful in the sense that I'm competing against elite players with rosters as good as or better than my roster. Sub scores between the players differed by less than 100 pts (and I'd remind you that the 6th hit on the essential node was generally worth around 100 pts). In fact, the entire event was effectively decided in 1 node. The infamous Venom Carnage Simbiote node in sub 3. But for 4*+ rosters, it was never an issue of whether we can beat that node (of course we can). What happened is that the goon started buffing special tiles and after every move, it was close to 40 secs of blinking flashing lights. At that level of play, the players have setup their end grinds with less than 5 min to spare. Getting caught up in a match that takes double the estimated time can basically cripple scoring against another optimal grinder.

The scores from that sub reflect that reality. the 5* player with championed OML Rhulk couldn't finishup grinding the last nodes and dropped 400 pts. Number 2 (with champed 5*) also didn't have a perfect finish but got 1 or 2 more nodes done. and so forth down the line. I gave my self an extra 10 min, which helped, but I also got an epiletic fit on that node and could not complete the grind to 1.

One thing I saw that I didn't fully appreciate is that having a fully covered 5* means you can do a full grind in around 1hr 45 min. Thats a pretty astounding advantage and you consider that in light of how much time it takes you the reader to compete a final grind. Overall, to beat a 5* roster, you must time your final grind within 5 min and put him under enough scoring pressure that he makes a mistake and doesn't compete his grind to 1. (players at that level always goto 1)

Overall, I really liked the competition in venom bomb. Playing strong competitors improves my play and makes the game fun. I also appreciated the fact that avg clears were 20min (by all the top 10 players) and that final grinds were avg two hours (IMHO this is an appropriate and reasonable time spent on gameplay). What I didn't like is that optimal play is essentially perfected. ETOS was more interesting and fun because there were lots of ways to try and improve play.

Forcing players to make decisions with consequences is good for the game and competition in general. When people can play on autopilot, the game gets stale and its time to find some kids to do the grinding for you.

simonsez

ErikPeter wrote:

I think the problem was trying to test/change too much all at once.

I have to disagree. The problem is that they made two changes that made PvE way worse. I had absolutely no problem separating the scaling change from the timer change and concluding that they were both awful changes.

generalTsobot

For the average roster, I think the ETOS test was tougher. If not for boosted Iceman, I would have given up very early in that event. As constructed, I had a way to mow my way thru it. It was not fun, but that's a different topic.

I was also pleasantly surprised to see that Gorgon's red was capped at something like 3200 damage. Even though it was going off every third turn, I could eat 3200 damage. That generally meant that Wolverine was the true menace of ETOS and even he was taken out midway thru the event.

Now, if they had done the scaling test on Venom Bomb? Yikes.

slidecage

have no clue why they even tested it on EOTS how would the test even ran when its the only event with WAVES.. they need to run it during a normal PVE to really see what people want. Maybe run it on a basic 4 day event and then see

Dragon_Nexus

As frustrating as Venom Bomb can be, it was an infinitely more relaxed PvE than the test was on EotS.

I did the first day of EotS and then about 30 minutes into the second day I thought "You know what? This isn't fun..." I could just see this long, dull stretch of repeatedly bashing my head against a wall, watching the level 190 enemies slowly raise up to level 300 or more for each damn node and I'd had enough. Afer that I'd do a single clear, or at least enough to unlock all the survival nodes, and just beat the survival nodes once for their rewards and leave it completely for the day. I simply didn't bother doing 6 clears or more in a single day against nothing but the equivilent of the final node on previous PvEs

Venom Bomb, even with its awful, AWFUL red feeding nodes was just more fun. I could do a single clear of three hard nodes, do the easier required nodes and then cruise on with my 5*s on the easy nodes and then move on. Easy! Fun! Not a massive chore! I found I even got a fairly good placement at the end by simply grinding the required nodes until I'd got all the rewards, then maybe the final one if it wasn't insanely hard to get the CP.

I don't think there was much about the new system I liked in its current form. They'd need to start the levels lower, for sure. I'd very much like them to keep the three easy/three requires/three hard system, not "Here's ten hard nodes" nonsense.

hodayathink

TxMoose wrote:

ErikPeter wrote:

I feel like it might be a step in the right direction if, for example, that node started out at like level 140 and only reached 300+ around the 7th clear. Eventually some players are just going to step back and say "not worth it" and the more committed players would win.

that could work if they balanced the scaling (and didn't extend progression). but the scaling they had clearly gave big advantages to soft cappers and 3* players that had 20-40 characters all the same level that could throw multiple compositions at nodes. I have 5 champed 4*s and both ice and cyke were boosted, so my average of my top 3 characters was 326. that means that nothing on my 90-character roster mattered except my maxed 4s and their support, which really sucked.

This brings me to something I've been thinking about for a while. The simple fact that the meta is not the same between PVP and PVE. In PVP, the best thing to do is find the 5-6 most powerful characters and level them up, ignoring everyone else. In PVE, what they want to be the best thing to do (outside of using winfinite or meat shield combos) is to level everyone up at the same time so that you have multiple teams you can play (and that helps conserve health packs). The EotS test just emphasized what the devs had already stated before the test that they want. The question that needs to be asked is how similar should the PVP and PVE meta be?

y2fitzy

They were both approximately 1,000% more fun than the current Heroic

Eddiemon

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Venom Bomb still has actual trivial nodes at the base of it where you can expand your roster and limit health pack consumption, plus the initial pass through of the essentials/hard nodes are reasonably scaled. Those alone make it appreciably better than the test EotS.

I guess it depends on what you think the point of the new format is. I think it is supposed to differentiate between winners and losers based upon ability to complete the nodes with the Healthpacks on hand.

Lastly, from an optimal play perspective, clearing easier nodes top to bottom once every 8 hours is light years better than clearing universally more difficult nodes 6 times straight.

Well yes, but if clearing hard nodes 4 times at any point in a 24 hour window made you the winner by virtue of nobody else getting that far, isn't that a better model again?

The model that everyone should be able to clear everything and timing being all that matters is defective. This could be something better once they get it right.

GrumpySmurf1002

Eddiemon wrote:

Well yes, but if clearing hard nodes 4 times at any point in a 24 hour window made you the winner by virtue of nobody else getting that far, isn't that a better model again?

Why do you need a 24 hour timer for that? Before they redesigned them into subs, the last couple nodes on one of the Heroics were abysmal to defeat. I'm certain people were scaled out, thus leaving those that could beat it to have an advantage just by nature of being able to do it.

Eddiemon wrote:

The model that everyone should be able to clear everything and timing being all that matters is defective. This could be something better once they get it right.

I agree with this, but with refreshes at 24hr, 8hr, 12, 2.24, whatever it is, if there's a clock, then clearing everything and timing is still ultimately what matters. Tacking on abysmal scaling to it just makes things miserable. No one wants to play a 100 point over 7 clears at level 200-300, especially for rewards amounting to about 600 iso and some crit boosts.

I think if you left the current system (3 laughable, 3 medium essentials, 3 hard nodes) and simply ramped them up more (cap the easy nodes at 200 instead of starting them there), it would have been much more palatable to the player base.

simonsez

Eddiemon wrote:

Well yes, but if clearing hard nodes 4 times at any point in a 24 hour window made you the winner by virtue of nobody else getting that far, isn't that a better model again?

It's also pure fiction. Until 99% percent of us stop playing, you'll never see a PvE where 4 clears makes you the winner. Unless you want them to design nodes where the characters are so over-levelled, they can one-shot us with match damage, but who the **** would ever want to play that ****?

Smudge

Venom Bomb was better, and it's not close. This coming from a 3-4* transitioner who hated VB last time it ran, and who was in a veteran bracket so ridiculous that my 60k score wasn't even T100. My overall invested effort was significantly lower across 4 days of VB than it was in even 2 days of EotS.

firethorne

No, we weren't too hard on eots. There is no need to set up a false dichotomy where either Venom Bomb or eots is bad. They both can be (and were) bad.

Just look at the poll asking if the game is still fun, and barely getting over 50% saying yes. You don't get that from a single problem event, but a long list of player unfriendly events and mechanics.