The Bottom Line Math of the New PVE Scoring

Vhailorx

Under the old system, achieving the final progression reward required 3 full, optimal clears of all available nodes per sub. Grinding was required only for top placement, iso/co mining, and compensating for missing essentials or less than optimal playtime.

Although the exact math remains uncertain (specifically how eots' 2-day subs will translate to typical 1-day subs), it appears that the new system requires something like 9-12 full clears of all available nodes per sub to achieve the same prog reward level (i.e grinding for placement will require even more clears).

Without any regard for scaling changes at all, why would I ever like a system that required me to play the game 2x as much for the same rewards? I enjoy this game, but not so much that I want to play it 6+ hours every day.

mindsuckr

Vhailorx wrote:

Under the old system, achieving the final progression reward required 3 full, optimal clears of all available nodes per sub. Grinding was required only for top placement, iso/co mining, and compensating for missing essentials or less than optimal playtime.

Although the exact math remains uncertain (specifically how eots' 2-day subs will translate to typical 1-day subs), it appears that the new system requires something like 9-12 full clears of all available nodes per sub to achieve the same prog reward level (i.e grinding for placement will require even more clears).

Without any regard for scaling changes at all, why would I ever like a system that required me to play the game 2x as much for the same rewards? I enjoy this game, but not so much that I want to play it 6+ hours every day.

The new points are 38% higher than last time. If three, optimal clears reached max progression before, then it should be 38% more playing. That should be 4 full clears and a minor grind, or 5 full clears per sub. It's still more playing, but not double.

Vhailorx

Even assuming mindsuckr is correct, why should we be ok with a 38% increase in the points necessary for the same rewards? And that's before considering the increased match time due to the scaling jump and end of easy nodes.

The problem with pve was NOT that it didn't require enough matches (that's a problem with high level PvP that limits players to just a handful of matches every 3-8 hours). Demiurge significantly increasing the amount of time necessary to play pve without increasing the rewards is upsetting. Slipping that change into a much larger package of changes, and then advertising the whole thing as a move to fix scaling and let players play on their own schedule is borderline insulting.

I am sorry to level such harsh criticisms at the devs, who generally seem earnest and enthusiastic about the game. But there is now a very long track record of changes that are announced as improvements for the players, are actually markedly player-unfriendly, and conveniently seem likely to result in increased (cp cover purchases, shield cooldowns, rng-only 5*s, indirect purchase of cps and LTs only)

To be fair, there have also been some straight up player-friendly changes (ddq, lowered PvP prizes).

This seems much more like the former and less like the latter.

hodayathink

Vhailorx wrote:

Even assuming mindsuckr is correct, why should we be ok with a 38% increase in the points necessary for the same rewards? And that's before considering the increased match time due to the scaling jump and end of easy nodes.

The problem with pve was NOT that it didn't require enough matches (that's a problem with high level PvP that limits players to just a handful of matches every 3-8 hours). Demiurge significantly increasing the amount of time necessary to play pve without increasing the rewards is upsetting. Slipping that change into a much larger package of changes, and then advertising the whole thing as a move to fix scaling and let players play on their own schedule is borderline insulting.

I am sorry to level such harsh criticisms at the devs, who generally seem earnest and enthusiastic about the game. But there is now a very long track record of changes that are announced as improvements for the players, are actually markedly player-unfriendly, and conveniently seem likely to result in increased (cp cover purchases, shield cooldowns, rng-only 5*s, indirect purchase of cps and LTs only)

To be fair, there have also been some straight up player-friendly changes (ddq, lowered PvP prizes).

This seems much more like the former and less like the latter.

From the few months I've been playing this game, this is neither the first nor the last time they've changed the reward values between runs of an event. IIRC, someone actually said that the value for the LT/25cp is actually lower for this run than it was for the initial run of this event. I think this is just another case, like championing and the nerf, of them changing multiple things at the same time without the changes necessarily being directly related.

AXP_isme

isn't it a bit early to conclude this? Last time this event ran I gave up trying to hit final progression because it looked like it was way out of reach. In the end I played casually for 4 days and almost got there anyway.

A bit of conjecture. Progression points for subsequent runs of an event are probably a function of the previous runs but weighted towards the most recent run. There's probably an element to which rubberbanding comes into play too. If node points could vary by, maybe, 10% of their base level then those people front running would be making it easier for everyone else to hit progression.

If there is progression inflation it's probably an oversight rather than anything malicious - unintended consequences. If you tried to build a blind (or even double blind) trial for event changes the uproar around here would be phenomenal as soon as people figured out what was going on. I have a certain amount of sympathy for the devs here, they're damned whatever they do and the intent is good.

At the end of the day this is one event. If you're not enjoying it, stop playing and go do something else.

Druss

difficult to work out the maths to be honest

for instance, before the "loaner" modes refreshed the same way everything else did ie 8 hrs - now even after 1 clear this starts a 24 hr clock so instantly, resulting in a loss of 2 full clears worth of points.

Quebbster

Enemy of the State is weird since points increase dramatically in the last two subs. In one run I managed to double my score over the last two days and snag the final progression reward just before the end of the event.

simonsez

Honestly, quibbling about the math doesn't really matter. Either way, this PvE is forcing us to work much longer and much harder for no added benefit at all.

This new format forces us to spend way more time playing because all the nodes are the equivalent difficulty of what used to be the 3 hardest nodes;

This new format forces us to spend way more time playing because "optimal" play requires more clears of each nodes;

This new format makes optimal play consist of having to clear way more nodes for zero rewards because the stack is already empty.

Maybe the devs were under the false impression making grinding so unpleasant and so unrewarding would make everyone stop doing it. Clearly they don't understand their players. Most of us are always ready to gobble up whatever **** sandwich they put in front of us.

mindsuckr

Here is the math behind the increase.
Last EotS, max progression: 114k
This EotS, max progression: 156k
That's a 37% increase in points required for maximum progression.

Pollozz

I like the new systems, brings more opportunity for people who cannot play the game on a timing schedule and yet be able to get top placements, even grinding for 5 straight hours at the beginning of the sub. Of course, the usual players that always takes the top placements are upset, because now more people who can grind early have the opportunity to take their spots.
I like the new system and i hope it continue this way

simonsez

Pollozz wrote:

I like the new systems, brings more opportunity for people who cannot play the game on a timing schedule and yet be able to get top placements, even grinding for 5 straight hours at the beginning of the sub.

I'd love to meet these players who can't play on a timing schedule, but can grind for 5 hours at the beginning of the sub. I bet they live in an Escher house.

tdglory49

mindsuckr wrote:

Here is the math behind the increase.
Last EotS, max progression: 114k
This EotS, max progression: 156k
That's a 37% increase in points required for maximum progression.

And the time before that, max progression was at 170k. I remember that being a pain to hit. I'm guessing they're adjusting the progression so that the "right" number of people hit it each time, possibly independent of the test system. The first time was too high, so they lowered it, now they're raising it.

Eddiemon

simonsez wrote:

I'd love to meet these players who can't play on a timing schedule, but can grind for 5 hours at the beginning of the sub. I bet they live in an Escher house.

Why should player who can't play on a timing schedule but can play on your arbitrary timing schedule exist?

You can put 5 hours in at any time (if 4 full clears really takes 5 hours) during the sub. You can even put it together in 15 - 20 minute increments across the day with no penalty.

And you don't need full clears because nodes reward full points for 6 clears, so you can skip the unfair hood and two yellow goons node or whatever is unbeatable in this sub and still get the points.

Heartburn

AXP_isme wrote:

If there is progression inflation it's probably an oversight rather than anything malicious - unintended consequences. If you tried to build a blind (or even double blind) trial for event changes the uproar around here would be phenomenal as soon as people figured out what was going on. I have a certain amount of sympathy for the devs here, they're damned whatever they do and the intent is good.

i doubt it if we got a notice from them a few days in advance stating: "We are testing new rewards and play style out for this event, all participants will receive an additional 20000 iso and 20 CP for participation in this event. There will be a survey at the end of the event where participants can give feedback on the changes and if it is filled out to completion they will receive a token for a 4* cover of their choosing". Guess it is just damned if you do it poorly.

Chrono_Tata

Are there actually people who "don't care about playing competitively but can still get good placement in the new system" and can they give us a summary of how they are playing this event? Personally, I don't consider myself a competitive PvE players. I normally do full clears, wait for nodes to refresh, and clear again when the nodes are back to full points, but not at optional times, so usually I only get 2-4 full clears for each sub. That generally net me a top 100 to top 50 placement in the sub easily.

In the latest sub of EotS, I got 2 full clears in all nodes, and then ground all the essential nodes and the CP node 6 times each. That's more than double the amount I play normally, especially considering that the nodes are way harder now (and get harder every clear). I finished top 200 in that sub.

So I'm honestly curious how less competitive players are even benefiting from this. From what I've seen, it's increasing the gap between competitive and non-competitive players even more.

Quebbster

Chrono_Tata wrote:

Are there actually people who "don't care about playing competitively but can still get good placement in the new system" and can they give us a summary of how they are playing this event? Personally, I don't consider myself a competitive PvE players. I normally do full clears, wait for nodes to refresh, and clear again when the nodes are back to full points, but not at optional times, so usually I only get 2-4 full clears for each sub. That generally net me a top 100 to top 50 placement in the sub easily.

In the latest sub of EotS, I got 2 full clears in all nodes, and then ground all the essential nodes and the CP node 6 times each. That's more than double the amount I play normally, especially considering that the nodes are way harder now (and get harder every clear). I finished top 200 in that sub.

So I'm honestly curious how less competitive players are even benefiting from this. From what I've seen, it's increasing the gap between competitive and non-competitive players even more.

My tactic has been to mine the rewards from the nodes - I play all the non-wave nodes when I feel like it until I hit the Point refresh. Towards the end of the sub, I have done a few playthroughs of the Beast essential for easy Points. It's been good for top 50 so far, which is all I've been aiming for.
It should be mentioned that I didn't start until Saturday though and my bracket is still only half full, so it's not the most competitive Environment. Suits me fine though.

Eddiemon

OJSP wrote:

I'd like to ask you a question: how many new character covers do you normally win from a release event? If the answer is none or one, then this proposed new change probably won't have any effect on your play style. If the answer is 2 or more.. then good luck trying to win the same number playing how you're describing above.

Not really. I normally don't get more than one an even that is rare because with my job I can't just drop everything every 8 hours to clear at optimal times.

But this change means that my working schedule is no longer an impediment to me, it's just a question of whether I can free up enough time when I get home for the clears. And if people start dropping points because of the difficulty of battles as opposed to having time available to them then I may pick up more covers than I used to.

Which was the point of the change.

mazerat

Chrono_Tata wrote:

Are there actually people who "don't care about playing competitively but can still get good placement in the new system" and can they give us a summary of how they are playing this event? Personally, I don't consider myself a competitive PvE players. I normally do full clears, wait for nodes to refresh, and clear again when the nodes are back to full points, but not at optional times, so usually I only get 2-4 full clears for each sub. That generally net me a top 100 to top 50 placement in the sub easily.

In the latest sub of EotS, I got 2 full clears in all nodes, and then ground all the essential nodes and the CP node 6 times each. That's more than double the amount I play normally, especially considering that the nodes are way harder now (and get harder every clear). I finished top 200 in that sub.

So I'm honestly curious how less competitive players are even benefiting from this. From what I've seen, it's increasing the gap between competitive and non-competitive players even more.

I'm a pretty new player in my third month but I normally do the 8-hour clears and then grind doable nodes at the end (e.g. for TaT that meant nodes with non-named enemies) so that I'm not completely empty for the new sub-event. This got me 8th on the Spider-Gwen release event and since then has had me solidly around 50. For EotS, I have all the required characters and I cleared everything twice on the first sub-event and then ground out all the drops (so 7 total clears on non-waves and 2 clears on waves). On the second sub-event I did one full-clear and then ground out all the drops. Sub-event three I did a full-clear and then ground out all the drops on the non-Wolverine nodes (stuff's getting hard). The entire time I've been hovering around 140. So I feel like I've sunk a lot of time into the event and I'm doing significantly worse than usual. I'm sure I'd be doing some amount better if more of my time were spent grinding the wave nodes for double points and 0 drops--I'm refusing to do that on principle--but I don't know how much. For reference, I'm at 43381 in 143rd. 1st has 95212 and 10th has 81705 so that's a pretty huge disparity.

fmftint

Max progression is calculated as a%of total points available in a event, all previous runs only had 3x full points/sub, this run there are 6x full points/ sub. More total points available = a higher progression target

Vhailorx

fmftint wrote:

Max progression is calculated as a%of total points available in a event, all previous runs only had 3x full points/sub, this run there are 6x full points/ sub. More total points available = a higher progression target

That's more or less the point I was trying to make fmf. Why, without any regard at all to the scaling or timing changes, should the players accept a change that requires them to play significantly more PVE for the same rewards?

Did players really feel like PVE wasn't enough of a time sink?

TxMoose

OJSP wrote:

It's not a bad system if you're not playing competitively.

completely disagree. I care much more about not making progression with the same effort than I care about placing 150-200 now for what used to get me t50. if by 'competitive' you mean placement. I don't give a rat's behind. hp is nice, but they just don't make it like they used to. slashing my cp production and my iso production is my biggest concern and I'm not adding 2-3 hours on top of what I already do - its a damn game! sorry, it is a bad system, regardless of competitiveness or not.