Summing Up Our Feelings After a Weekend of New PvE

Warbringa

tanis3303 wrote:

Ok, so we've all had a day to digest this new system, and well...yea.

So I thought it might be a nice idea to sum up the overarching thoughts and suggestions in the 20 pages of hate so the Dev team has a place to see what everyone is saying without having to pick thru all the vitriol to get any useful feedback and (hopefully) comment and/or get a dialogue going with the player base about what worked, what didn't, and what to do going forward.
Mod team: If this is in poor taste or needs moved, do with it as you will.
Forumites: If I missed any key points, please add them or let me know via pm and I will add them to the OP...but please, lets keep all of the hate, rage and negativity out of this thread. Use the existing 20 page thread for venting, lets keep this clean and helpful, and hopefully it can be a welcoming place for the team to interact with us and move forward.

What We Like About the New PvE Experience

1:) Communication of the change BEFORE it went live, so we knew what to expect
2:) Willingness to try something new
3:) Removal of strict timed clears to promote a play-at-your-own-pace experience
Great start, but this needs tweaked before it truly meets the intended goal (see below)
4:) Transparent enemy scaling and leveling
This is a neat idea, showing us the enemies gaining levels as we beat the nodes and capping them after a set amount of wins
5:) Enemy power levels being capped at 13/13 instead of 15/13
This is great, as facing opponents that had all three powers set to level 5 has never felt fair.

What We Don't Like About the New PvE Experience

1:) Increased time commitment
We went from 3 clears at 8 hour intervals (roughly 40 minutes each) +1 grind down at subs end (~2 hours), followed by a clear of the new sub (roughly 40 miuntes) for optimal scoring to a HUGE grind of 6-7 clears at the subs start (5-6 hours maybe?) + 1 grind down at subs end (~2-3 hours or more) AND another HUGE grind of 6-7 clears of the new sub for optimal scoring. This is far too much to ask. If the reward tiers were vastly expanded, this wouldn't be as big of an issue, as only the true hardcore would still try to do it. But as it stands, for a large portion of the player base, anything outside of t10 placement is nothing more than a few champion levels on a 3* and some ISO/HP. 100% NOT worth it for this level of time commitment required here.
2:) Removal of the easier nodes / "Smoothing" of difficulty curve
Many players (myself included) used these nodes to try out random teams for fun, collect some much needed ISO or just have *gasp* FUN playing the game. This is gone, and these nodes are now as difficult as any other node in the event, making clearing them a huge chore and honestly not worth the prizes offered.
3:) Over the top scaling and enemy levels
Challenging is one thing. Having literally every single node be one bad board or one cascade away from a wipe is a whole other, very unpleasant thing. Losing in this game is awful. You're out time, resources, characters, sanity...if the system needs to be set up in such a way that losing becomes more of a regular thing, then losing needs to be less painful.
4:) Drastic increase in overall difficulty for the same rewards as before
If the difficulty ramps up after each fight, the rewards should also. Finally beat that node that was giving you fits? Guess what...they gained 20 levels, here's 70 ISO for clearing it! That's not positive reinforcement, that's frustrating, and it does not foster repeat plays to any but the hardest of hardcore. If they gain 20 levels, any ISO payouts you haven't yet won should gain +200 ISO, and by say the 3rd clear if you haven't picked up the token, it should change to a Heroic or event token. The release rate and sheer cost of leveling characters means that no one but HUGE spenders are in any danger of running out of projects to work on for the next 5 years...loosening up the purse strings a bit in regards to in-game rewards is not going to break the game.
5:) Wave nodes offering nothing for repeated plays
I realize this is limited to certain events, and Enemy of the State is the worst possible case of this, but clearing a wave node multiple times while only getting prizes for the first time and each subsequent clear giving out absolutely NOTHING is no bueno. A possible way to mitigate this would be to have the wave nodes be worth 6-7x the points they are worth and then lock them out. One and done.
6:) by Forumite Request - Current scaling system makes it far easier for lower level rosters
A lot of players are observing that the leaders in their brackets are all players with either low-level rosters or intentionally **** rosters. Low level rosters I kind of get, their scaling is naturally lower, but one of the things this change was meant to address was the intentional underleveling of rosters to gain advantage in Story events, so that seems to not have worked. The leader in my bracket has nothing better than a championed 2* character on his roster, and several others in the t10 have a few 1-2 cover 5*s and nothing else better than unchampioned, mid-high level 3*s, so I can echo this as well. While higher level rosters are being scaled completely out of the event, the scaling for lower level rosters seems to be much easier to clear, which, at the end of the day, really isn't fair play. The challenge needs to be even across the spectrum of character tiers, not challenging but doable for 2-3* players bit nigh unto impossible for more advanced rosters.
:7) Players feel unable to use more than a few top tier characters
Sort of related to #2, the across the board increase in difficulty has made many of us feel forced to break out the A-Team for EVERY node. This gets repetitive quick, and makes us wonder what the point of having rosters full of cool characters is when we're only using 4-5 of them with any regularity.

I know I missed some stuff here, please add it as you see fit, but this is the overall gist of the 20 page thread...it's a lot of people saying the same things. Most of the vets are hating it, and a lot of newer players seem to be enjoying it...but eventually, those newer players will have the rosters the vets have, and they're going to pick up their pitchforks and march right along with us. Overall, I'm happy they are trying something new, but this needs some work. Hopefully the Dev team is willing to hear us out on this and tweak it, because with a little work, this could be a great setup for Story events.

I agree with just about everything you bring up but I disagree with points 5 and 7.

Wave Nodes- Honestly wave nodes provide more benefit generally than non-wave nodes and you only have to clear them once. They give you usually more iso from the first clear than 7 clears of regular nodes and they often times will give you an event token too. They also generally give more progression points than regular nodes. The issue is that you FEEL like you are getting nothing because it was front loaded from the first clear. I would rather have front-loaded rewards because I can still get them all from one clear if I don't feel like playing the event (like this EofTS for example). The only exception are the old "trivial" wave nodes with only 3 waves, they produce slightly less iso than the old regular "trivial" nodes after 7 clears, but once again, you at least get it all front-loaded.

As far as point 7, I actually have been using far more team combinations because of the new change and the fact that damage and health pack limitation forces me to use many more team combinations that I usually used, which I have enjoyed and has overall worked out well for me. Now this probably matters based on your roster. If you only have 3-5 maxed 4* then I could see where this would be bad as the game is looking at you as a softcapper (even though we know that is not the case). If you have a 3* roster like myself and you are using only the same 3* then you need to explore more team combinations as there are a lot of good team combos that work well and I have yet to wipe using a 3* team. I did wipe when trying to use an unboosted 2* team to beat level 130 nodes but I knew that was a very even matchup and very board sensitive. I have even used boosted 2* Thor and OBW in many 3* team combos and actually have used some of my undercovered but boosted 4*/5* in a few matchups to act as tanks (looking at you 4* DP and Phoenix).

That said I stopped trying to be competitive after the first two days as I knew what was coming next in this event and didn't want to spend all of that time and be frustrated but I am able to clear each node 3 times with my roster although it does wipe out my healthpacks. I could do the seven clears and maybe some grinding but I am not a masochist and decided to opt out after getting a feeling for the new system. Now I am just doing one clear for all the nodes to get mainly the wave rewards.

Eddiemon

tanis3303 wrote:

1:) Increased time commitment
2:) Removal of the easier nodes / "Smoothing" of difficulty curve

3:) Over the top scaling and enemy levels
4:) Drastic increase in overall difficulty for the same rewards as before

5:) Wave nodes offering nothing for repeated plays

I don't think you can argue 1,2 and 3 consistantly. Either you can clear all the nodes 12 times and invest a lot of time OR it gets too difficult and you are prevented from playing for 5 or 6 hours. But you can't have both being an issue at the same time.

I think the intention was to get you to 'tap out' by making the nodes eventually scale too high to be repeated, which would be the best model if they based progression rewards on not clearing everything and if they got scaling correct for new and deliberately **** rosters.

Wave nodes never offered repeated play rewards so I don't know that that should be an issue with the new model specifically.

Bronn1

While I don't disagree with anything in particular with the original post, I did want to speak up as a relatively newer player who still has a relatively limited roster (a bunch of 2*s in the midrange of Champion level, one cover away from my first full cover 3-Star, and a single 4-star (of the six I have) with more than cover).

One of the disheartening things about this game can be the ability to compete in some of these events, especially when you see teams of players that have been playing since day 1 that are loaded with fully-leveled 4 and 5-stars. Leveling the playing field does actually have the effect of encouraging the newer player to play more and inevitably they'd likely spend money on the game. Keeping them around can only benefit D3, so while it might be more frustrating for the fully-loaded player like many posting on these forums, it can be a benefit for those of us who joined late that are still seeking their first 3-Star Champion (c'mon final Black Widow cover!). I'm more inclined to stick around and spend money (which I have) when I can actually finish some of these PvE events and get the rewards commensurate with them, rather than playing the first few nodes, getting peanuts that doesn't help me advance very much, and then running into a wall. While the diehards might be frustrated by this change and how much harder it is for their elite 5-star teams, the players like me, who are the ones that D3 needs to keep around at this point in the game's life, will definitely like seeing ourselves higher up the food chain for once.

All that said, it was still more grindy that it usually is, so that could definitely be worked on.

Ailbe

It doesn't help that they chose to introduce this endless grind with Enemy of the State. An event which sees Wolverine paired in many, many missions, with two minions who automatically generate red AP for him every single turn. I have had to quit even trying because mission after mission Wolverine is hitting me again and again with his Adamantium Slash. So in addition to having to try and somehow avoid all those damn shuriken, all those other countdown timers, getting AP I can't even use I have to somehow keep Wolverine from getting any red matches. Because if he gets any red matches, he's hitting me with Adamantium Slash every other turn instead of every third turn. Frankly the event itself is abusive even before this change. Now its just brutal. And it doesn't make a lot of sense to be brutalized by a game I play for fun.

I can see the outline of what they were trying here. And I appreciate the end of the 8 hour timer. But the end implementation requires far more of a time investment than it did before, the points required to get the end rewards increased beyond ridiculous, the difficulty is increasing far more than is reasonable. Tone down the time required, tone down the difficulty, tone down the points required. That would be my advice.

TLCstormz

I just wanted to say, that it's pretty disappointing that you felt the need to add that VERY BIASED "by forumite request" one in there.

Vets are CONSTANTLY complaining about how newer players have it easier. Yet.......

- What about newer players getting absolutely obliterated in PvP?
- What about newer players trying to roll with the big dogs, rostering one or two 5*s, and being COMPLETELY unable to compete in almost ANY game mode, from now on?
- What about you all actually BECOMING vets on the backs of characters like 3* Steve Rogers and Black Panther, who's covers fell from the sky like there was no tomorrow years ago, versus there not being other characters THAT amazing getting handed out so fruitfully, nowadays?

The grass is always greener. No one has had life harder than you. Etc etc etc.

Lopan15

Calnexin wrote:

Getting to the meta...

A lot of people are saying they have to spend about twice as much time on the game for similar placement. I'm experiencing much the same thing.

Given that placement is relative to your competition, it follows that your competition is also spending twice as long, maybe more so, to make more points than you. I think that's a fair assessment. Everyone's starting from the same place, but getting to different reward tiers.

I've also read here that 2* teams are dominating leaderboards - their scaling is much more forgiving and can clear nodes way faster. Their heroes also heal quicker without health packs.

That information makes me ponder the design goal. It could be that, since PvP is so heavily dominated by 4* and higher, maybe PvE is being redesigned as a low-tier booster. Insane scaling for high-tier rosters ensures they won't take top place, alllowing lower-tier rosters a chance to earn the 3* and 4* cover rewards they so desperately need to advance in the game. Because they sure don't stand a chance while the developed 4* rosters are vying for top-10.

Top 8 in my bracket are all strong champed 3* rosters with some good 4* mixed in. 9th is a 2* roster and 10th is a under leveled 3* roster. I'm curious if it's because of the 3* vets grinding more. My scaling is getting pretty tough now so maybe I'll have to stop doing so many clears because of health packs. Maybe then the 2* rosters will overtake us.

kaelad

Lopan15 wrote:

Top 8 in my bracket are all strong champed 3* rosters with some good 4* mixed in. 9th is a 2* roster and 10th is a under leveled 3* roster. I'm curious if it's because of the 3* vets grinding more. My scaling is getting pretty tough now so maybe I'll have to stop doing so many clears because of health packs. Maybe then the 2* rosters will overtake us.

Similar story here. My top 10 are all champed 3* rosters with some 5* characters mixed in.

Malcrof

kaelad wrote:

Lopan15 wrote:

Top 8 in my bracket are all strong champed 3* rosters with some good 4* mixed in. 9th is a 2* roster and 10th is a under leveled 3* roster. I'm curious if it's because of the 3* vets grinding more. My scaling is getting pretty tough now so maybe I'll have to stop doing so many clears because of health packs. Maybe then the 2* rosters will overtake us.

Similar story here. My top 10 are all champed 3* rosters with some 5* characters mixed in.

Same, my t10 have no max 4* or high level 5*.

But, also, i am well into t50 (#32), and it appears that for the first time since the LT was introduced, i am not going to get max progression. So t50 and not even max progression.. that is rough.

thanos8587

Malcrof wrote:

kaelad wrote:

Lopan15 wrote:

Top 8 in my bracket are all strong champed 3* rosters with some good 4* mixed in. 9th is a 2* roster and 10th is a under leveled 3* roster. I'm curious if it's because of the 3* vets grinding more. My scaling is getting pretty tough now so maybe I'll have to stop doing so many clears because of health packs. Maybe then the 2* rosters will overtake us.

Similar story here. My top 10 are all champed 3* rosters with some 5* characters mixed in.

Same, my t10 have no max 4* or high level 5*.

maybe this has more to do with the fact that the majority of people with maxed 4s and 5s dont feel the need to run a cheese grater over their respective faces for xforce and 3thor covers. this event is giving an opening for others willing to do it to get higher up on the ladder. the participation level in my alliance family is way down and guys that would routinely score top 10 arent bothering. it has nothing to do with the inability to do it.

trust me, if this event was for a new character, things would be entirely different.

LordXberk

Malcrof wrote:

kaelad wrote:

Lopan15 wrote:

Top 8 in my bracket are all strong champed 3* rosters with some good 4* mixed in. 9th is a 2* roster and 10th is a under leveled 3* roster. I'm curious if it's because of the 3* vets grinding more. My scaling is getting pretty tough now so maybe I'll have to stop doing so many clears because of health packs. Maybe then the 2* rosters will overtake us.

Similar story here. My top 10 are all champed 3* rosters with some 5* characters mixed in.

Same, my t10 have no max 4* or high level 5*.

But, also, i am well into t50 (#32), and it appears that for the first time since the LT was introduced, i am not going to get max progression. So t50 and not even max progression.. that is rough.

This. This is my biggest problem w/ this annoying EotS run. Running thru reward-less grinds on the wave nodes over and over and it's gonna get me nothing. So much more effort for this event, the rewards are no better, plus max progression seems unlikely (unless we're dramatically underestimating the pts in the final subs - there is a DD wave node worth 3k ISO, I believe). Still sucks, regardless.

Polares

LordXberk wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

kaelad wrote:

Lopan15 wrote:

Top 8 in my bracket are all strong champed 3* rosters with some good 4* mixed in. 9th is a 2* roster and 10th is a under leveled 3* roster. I'm curious if it's because of the 3* vets grinding more. My scaling is getting pretty tough now so maybe I'll have to stop doing so many clears because of health packs. Maybe then the 2* rosters will overtake us.

Similar story here. My top 10 are all champed 3* rosters with some 5* characters mixed in.

Same, my t10 have no max 4* or high level 5*.

But, also, i am well into t50 (#32), and it appears that for the first time since the LT was introduced, i am not going to get max progression. So t50 and not even max progression.. that is rough.

This. This is my biggest problem w/ this annoying EotS run. Running thru reward-less grinds on the wave nodes over and over and it's gonna get me nothing. So much more effort for this event, the rewards are no better, plus max progression seems unlikely (unless we're dramatically underestimating the pts in the final subs - there is a DD wave node worth 3k ISO, I believe). Still sucks, regardless.

I still think we will be able to get the progression, next sub has a couple of survival nodes that are worth 3k (this is 21k in just one node if cleared 7 times). And the last one also has a couple of survivals worth a lot. So I still think if we clear those nodes 6-7 times we will get the progression. If you are around 90k I still think is doable (I myself have 105k and I am in the top20).


My top10 is also full of people in the champed 3 territory. This event benefits those people a lot, more than 2s teams. They have less scaling than people with maxed 4s AND a bigger number of champed 3s vs champed 4s, so they have a bigger number of chars they can use (as an example I have 5 champed 4s, but around 16 champed 3s). I basically need to use cyclops, iceman and Jean (she is safe behind the other two) in all nodes. I have tried to use other teams like 4hor+IM40 sometimes but they dont have enough hitpoints to use them repeatedly (3 caltrops and IM is under 50%), so I basically can use them just once. At least tomorrow I will be able to use OML, his regen will help a lot...

TxMoose

Polares wrote:

I basically need to use cyclops, iceman and Jean (she is safe behind the other two) in all nodes. I have tried to use other teams like 4hor+IM40 sometimes but they dont have enough hitpoints to use them repeatedly (3 caltrops and IM is under 50%), so I basically can use them just once. At least tomorrow I will be able to use OML, his regen will help a lot...

you might try im40 with cyke and ice. its beautiful when it works. they can take a slash or two and still be standing, but if you get lucky, you can finish it pretty quickly. i got lucky on the last survival node in hells kitchen and took minimal damage. first clear took 6 healthpacks though. goon-only nodes with no kishu get some combo of witch and jean. px works well with them. kishus make that less viable.

tanis3303

TLCstormz wrote:

I just wanted to say, that it's pretty disappointing that you felt the need to add that VERY BIASED "by forumite request" one in there.

Vets are CONSTANTLY complaining about how newer players have it easier. Yet.......

- What about newer players getting absolutely obliterated in PvP?
- What about newer players trying to roll with the big dogs, rostering one or two 5*s, and being COMPLETELY unable to compete in almost ANY game mode, from now on?
- What about you all actually BECOMING vets on the backs of characters like 3* Steve Rogers and Black Panther, who's covers fell from the sky like there was no tomorrow years ago, versus there not being other characters THAT amazing getting handed out so fruitfully, nowadays?

The grass is always greener. No one has had life harder than you. Etc etc etc.

Well, see...I wasn't going to, for exactly this reason. BUT...I got to thinking about it, and really...it's not fair play. There is an almost insurmountable difference between a lvl 50 Hand/Hand/Wolvie node vs a lvl 350 Hand/Hand/Wolvie node. You can clear the lvl 50 version with almost any team 6 times with very little resistance, and in a very short time. The lvl 350 node tho? Not so much. That's deadly, with 7,000+ Adamantium Slashes every 3rd, 5th, 7th turn, and enemy health pools that border on the absurd. At the end of the day, its so much easier and more plausible for the player with lower scaling to fully clear out these nodes than it is for the over-scaled players that it creates an unfair separation between the low level rosters and the high level ones. Whether or not this is intended is a whole other debate, but as I stated in the OP, the challenge needs to be even across the spectrum of player level. Whether this means lowering scaling (or really just the enemy health pools) for high level rosters or raising it for beginners, or meeting somewhere in the middle, it needs to be balanced at all levels of play, not actually trivial for early rosters and bordering on impossible for advanced ones. That's too great of a divide.

PeterGibbons316

tanis3303 wrote:

TLCstormz wrote:

I just wanted to say, that it's pretty disappointing that you felt the need to add that VERY BIASED "by forumite request" one in there.

Vets are CONSTANTLY complaining about how newer players have it easier. Yet.......

- What about newer players getting absolutely obliterated in PvP?
- What about newer players trying to roll with the big dogs, rostering one or two 5*s, and being COMPLETELY unable to compete in almost ANY game mode, from now on?
- What about you all actually BECOMING vets on the backs of characters like 3* Steve Rogers and Black Panther, who's covers fell from the sky like there was no tomorrow years ago, versus there not being other characters THAT amazing getting handed out so fruitfully, nowadays?

The grass is always greener. No one has had life harder than you. Etc etc etc.

Well, see...I wasn't going to, for exactly this reason. BUT...I got to thinking about it, and really...it's not fair play. There is an almost insurmountable difference between a lvl 50 Hand/Hand/Wolvie node vs a lvl 350 Hand/Hand/Wolvie node. You can clear the lvl 50 version with almost any team 6 times with very little resistance, and in a very short time. The lvl 350 node tho? Not so much. That's deadly, with 7,000+ Adamantium Slashes every 3rd, 5th, 7th turn, and enemy health pools that border on the absurd. At the end of the day, its so much easier and more plausible for the player with lower scaling to fully clear out these nodes than it is for the over-scaled players that it creates an unfair separation between the low level rosters and the high level ones. Whether or not this is intended is a whole other debate, but as I stated in the OP, the challenge needs to be even across the spectrum of player level. Whether this means lowering scaling (or really just the enemy health pools) for high level rosters or raising it for beginners, or meeting somewhere in the middle, it needs to be balanced at all levels of play, not actually trivial for early rosters and bordering on impossible for advanced ones. That's too great of a divide.

I agree tanis. I welcome the added challenge, I really do, but with the stated goal of "As your roster gets stronger, you'll see enemies that are relatively easier. (Their levels will still increase, but more slowly than yours do.)" they really missed the mark. A game should be challenging in a manner that is fun, but also gives you incentive to progress through the game so that you can more easily overcome those challenges, and tackle new ones. Both the current PvE system as well as the EotS test scaling fail to achieve this.

And don't misunderstand TLC - the goal here isn't to punish new players because they don't have it as hard as we did or some such nonsense. New players need to be able to progress in a way that rewards their efforts, but it shouldn't be so much easier for a 2* roster to place high than a 4* roster.

Warbringa

tanis3303 wrote:

TLCstormz wrote:

I just wanted to say, that it's pretty disappointing that you felt the need to add that VERY BIASED "by forumite request" one in there.

Vets are CONSTANTLY complaining about how newer players have it easier. Yet.......

- What about newer players getting absolutely obliterated in PvP?
- What about newer players trying to roll with the big dogs, rostering one or two 5*s, and being COMPLETELY unable to compete in almost ANY game mode, from now on?
- What about you all actually BECOMING vets on the backs of characters like 3* Steve Rogers and Black Panther, who's covers fell from the sky like there was no tomorrow years ago, versus there not being other characters THAT amazing getting handed out so fruitfully, nowadays?

The grass is always greener. No one has had life harder than you. Etc etc etc.

Well, see...I wasn't going to, for exactly this reason. BUT...I got to thinking about it, and really...it's not fair play. There is an almost insurmountable difference between a lvl 50 Hand/Hand/Wolvie node vs a lvl 350 Hand/Hand/Wolvie node. You can clear the lvl 50 version with almost any team 6 times with very little resistance, and in a very short time. The lvl 350 node tho? Not so much. That's deadly, with 7,000+ Adamantium Slashes every 3rd, 5th, 7th turn, and enemy health pools that border on the absurd. At the end of the day, its so much easier and more plausible for the player with lower scaling to fully clear out these nodes than it is for the over-scaled players that it creates an unfair separation between the low level rosters and the high level ones. Whether or not this is intended is a whole other debate, but as I stated in the OP, the challenge needs to be even across the spectrum of player level. Whether this means lowering scaling (or really just the enemy health pools) for high level rosters or raising it for beginners, or meeting somewhere in the middle, it needs to be balanced at all levels of play, not actually trivial for early rosters and bordering on impossible for advanced ones. That's too great of a divide.

Actually I think if you are facing level 50 nodes, your roster probably doesn't have many characters over that level and it will be hard. I remember when I started playing almost two years ago the Hand events being so hard I would simply skip them because at that early of levels you don't usually even have all of the covers or diversity of roster to help. I don't think anyone is seeing 1* rosters placing at the top of their brackets.

The reason 3* rosters are doing well are twofold: 1.) normal veterans with 4* rosters or better aren't playing to place due to difficulty and 2.) new system looks at most 4* players as softcappers since most 4* players only have 4 or 5 maxed 4* characters and 3* players usually have a much bigger base of maxed characters which makes it more viable (not easier believe me) because they can use several more teams and combinations whereas the 4* rosters can't due to scaling

I think if the start of the scaling across the board is lowered that will initially help as 4* players can use underdeveloped 4* and maxed 3* early on for clears. However this change does penalize people who basically don't have a playable diversified roster in their highest tier aka most 4* players in this case.

nate461

After playing this new PVE System for 4 days of “Enemy of the State”, it has been just Terrible, the worst experience since & started playing this game one and a half years ago.

It is hard to avoid the large number of pages of hate & vitriol, because the event has been so bad. So after 4 days of playing this PVE, I will try to unemotionally summarize the issues so the Dev team has a place to get useful feedback and (hopefully) some fixes before anything like this is tried again.

What could have been good about the New PVE test, if there was a massive improvement in the Scaling problem. However, despite a lot of talk, scaling is getting progressively worse not better. This shouldn’t be rocket science and I think could be improved easily as indicated below if the Devs really wanted to fix Scaling problems.
Possible benefits if executed better:
1:) Communication of the change before the test was good, but no level of communication could prepare anyone for the problems when it went live.
2:) Devs claim of willingness to try something new
3:) Removal of strict timed clears to promote a play-at-your-own-pace experience
This could be a good start, if there weren’t so many problems with Scaling (see below).
4:) Transparent enemy scaling and leveling
This is would be a neat idea, showing us the enemies gaining levels as we beat the nodes and capping them after a set amount of wins if it was actually possible to beat a node more than once or twice.
5:) Enemy power levels being capped at 13/13 instead of 15/13
This is an improvement, facing opponents that with all three powers set to level 5 was never fair.

Regarding the words from Anthony at Demiurge:
“Mission Difficulty Adjustment Test
“The main things we are trying to accomplish with this change are improving how mission difficulty is calculated and making missions more about completing challenging-but-fun missions rather than playing missions quickly, at set times during the day.” This totally did not work. If the real intent was to stop grinding to get the points you need for the top award, it did that.
Mission Difficulty
“Previously, the system presented you with opponents based on your characters’ levels. There was a couple of quirks with this system. In some circumstances, it could be disadvantageous to level characters, or to add a high-level character to your roster. Now, the game will take into account both your heroes’ power levels and heroes’ levels into account when establishing the difficulty of the mission.” This was either coded wrong or not the real intent. I have three 5 star characters, with very little power at their min level and our opponents were impossible to beat.
Playing When You Want to Play
“The next big change we are introducing is how missions are re-played. Previously, after beating a mission, the strictly optimal strategy was to wait 8 hours and play it again. We wanted to update the system to give you more freedom about when you play the game.” This was ridicules given the Scaling problems. You can’t play when you want when you have to wait for your health to recharge, because it took all your health just to win a few fights, because the scaling is so bad. While the program is quick to scale you up if you win, even if you lose 5 times in a row it won’t scale down and you are out of health.

“We’re all pretty excited about the new changes and hope you enjoy them as well. As part of a thank-you for helping us with testing this system, we will be rewarding users who participate in it. Just for playing in the event, you will get three extra Enemy of the State tokens. If you place in the top 50 of your leaderboard you will also receive 10 Command Points. These will be gifted to everyone that participated the day after the event ends.” This is insane and completely backwards. If anyone gets in the top 50 the change worked for them or beat any competition down below 50. You should reward those who were ripped off by the change and majorly disadvantaged. The last time “Enemy Of The State” was run, I was able to get the top award. In this test, I will be lucky to get half way there and have no chance of getting the 25 CPs. Granting everyone who was disadvantaged 10 CPs isn’t much compensation for losing 25 CPs.

What made the New PvE experience so bad & not work:
1) Increased time commitment
Contrary to the stated intent it took twice as long to get half as many awards. This is far too much to ask. If the reward tiers were vastly expanded, this would be better. As it stands, for a large portion of the player base, anything outside of t10 placement is nothing more than a few champion levels on a 3* and some ISO/HP. 100% NOT worth it for this level of time commitment required here. Also with so many more players when a new character is introduced, it is impossible to get in the top 100 to get the character.
2) Removal of the easier nodes / "Smoothing" of difficulty curve
Many players (including myself & our alliance) used these nodes to try out random teams, collect some much needed ISO or just (heaven forbid) having some “Fun” playing the game in the initial nodes which setup the story line. This enjoyment is gone, and these nodes are now as difficult as any other node in the event, making clearing them a huge chore and honestly not worth the prizes offered.
3) Over the top scaling and enemy levels
The program still does not take into account that 5 star characters with only a couple covers completely screws up your scaling. Before I got Old Man Logan, Silver Surfer & Pheonix, I could easily be it the top 50 and sometimes in the top 20. That is impossible now. Even though my 5 stars are so weak they can be beat by a 2 star team I am still scaled to opponents that are unreasonably high. The 5 stars are so weak because they don’t have enough covers to make them useful and you have to keep them at a min level due to the Scaling problems. Challenging is one thing, but having literally every single node be a wipe out in the first or second play is a whole different situation and very unpleasant. I started playing this game because my grandson likes Marvel characters, but after this test event, he is losing interest fast.
4) Drastic increase in overall difficulty for the same rewards as before
If the difficulty ramps up after each fight, the rewards should increase also. Finally beat that node that you lost to several times rewards you by gaining more than 20 levels and here's 70 ISO for clearing it! That's not positive reinforcement, that's just frustrating, and it does not foster repeat. If you lose a node the program should scale down.
5) Wave nodes offering nothing for repeated plays
I realize this is limited to certain events, and Enemy of the State is the worst possible case of this, but clearing a wave node multiple times while only getting prizes for the first time and each subsequent clear giving out absolutely nothing is not reasonable. There should be rewards for beating a wave more than once with the scale going up.
6) Current scaling system makes it far easier for lower level rosters and forces players to through away any 5 stars
A lot of players are observing that the leaders in their brackets are all players with either low-level rosters or intentionally **** rosters. Low level rosters I kind of get, their scaling is naturally lower, but one of the things this change was meant to address was the intentional under leveling of rosters to gain advantage in Story events, so that seems to not have worked. The leader in many brackets have nothing better than a championed 2* characters on their roster. While higher level rosters are being scaled completely out of the event, the scaling for lower level rosters seems to be much easier to clear, which, at the end of the day, really isn't fair play. The game program needs to be more even across the spectrum of character tiers, not challenging but doable for 2-3* players but nigh unto impossible for more advanced rosters.
7) Players have to use just a few characters
The across the board increase in difficulty has made many of us only use our A-Team for every node. This gets repetitive quick, and makes us wonder what the point of having rosters full of cool characters is when you can only use 4-5 of them regularity.

Most of the vets are hating this, and a lot of newer players seem to be enjoying it, but eventually, those newer players will have the rosters the vets have, and they're going to pick up their pitchforks or quit the game. While we are happy the Devs say they are willing to try something new, this needs some serious work. Hopefully the Dev team is willing to listen to players like myself, who have spent considerable real money supporting MPQ.

Smudge

nate461 wrote:

4) Drastic increase in overall difficulty for the same rewards as before
If the difficulty ramps up after each fight, the rewards should increase also. Finally beat that node that you lost to several times rewards you by gaining more than 20 levels and here's 70 ISO for clearing it! That's not positive reinforcement, that's just frustrating, and it does not foster repeat. If you lose a node the program should scale down.

*snipped*

There is a lot of great, constructive feedback in your post, Nate, but this point in particular stuck out to me. I am a lifelong gamer, and this point strikes me as interesting.

Other video games, such as Borderlands, Fallout, etc., often feature opponents of significantly higher level than you. Bold gamers will try to take on these opponents early and often find themselves getting beaten down handily time after time. However, while these opponents are punishing you for being underleveled, you can play the game, level up, and eventually return and smoke them with little effort. My wife and I did this in the Borderlands pre-sequel. We started the second playthrough on Vault Hunter mode (this is essentially a heroic mode or higher difficulty setting), and the first boss was insurmountably difficult. I don't know how many times he obliterated us while only losing half of his own health... maybe. One level up from fighting trivial monsters later, and we were questioning why we had such a hard time with him.

This test does the exact opposite. While it gets harder and harder, you have no recourse against the game. There is eventually a wall you hit, and it loses its fun and interest factor quickly. If difficulty scaled back on a loss even half as much as it increased on a win, it would be a completely different story.

As has been reiterated time and again here, this model explicitly punishes players for developing their rosters. Every other game out there starts the challenge appropriately or allows you to bring yourself up to the challenge eventually rather than building up until you can no longer even compete.

az98

I posted this in another thread, but feel its better said here:

Ive been playing 6 months, i just today championed my 2nd 3*. Every previous PvE event I had no trouble getting the 3* progression reward. This event I spent more playtime, was in the top 300 (better then any other event Ive participated in) yet I was 25k points away from the 3* progression. It felt terrible, and I absolutely hated this event because of that. If every event requires that much playtime just to get to the 3* progression reward, then i'm done with pve. I dont have the time and willingness to put in more time into this game then what I already did.

I liked that I could play anytime, but that doesnt compare to not reaching my standard for progression.

BlackSheep101

Eddiemon wrote:

tanis3303 wrote:

1:) Increased time commitment
2:) Removal of the easier nodes / "Smoothing" of difficulty curve

3:) Over the top scaling and enemy levels
4:) Drastic increase in overall difficulty for the same rewards as before

5:) Wave nodes offering nothing for repeated plays

I don't think you can argue 1,2 and 3 consistantly. Either you can clear all the nodes 12 times and invest a lot of time OR it gets too difficult and you are prevented from playing for 5 or 6 hours. But you can't have both being an issue at the same time.

I don't think 1, 2 and 3 are separate issues, much less mutually exclusive. The amount of time to clear the sub went way up because they removed the trivial fights and rapidly increased scaling with each win (this is excluding arguments about optimal clearing at the beginning and end of each sub). While before I managed 3 full clears plus at least some grinding for CP and on the trivial nodes, I can't do the same in EotS even with the removal of the 8 hour refresh timer.

SnowcaTT

That PVE cost me a ton of ISO (can't grind easy nodes) and CP (when it doesn't drop first three times, can't grind further on the CP nodes either!)

I always get to the 3* progression with just those grinds - I didn't make it this time, unwilling to grind nodes that are going to constantly cost me ISO in boosts and Health Packs.