Summing Up Our Feelings After a Weekend of New PvE

tanis3303

Ok, so we've all had a day to digest this new system, and well...yea.

So I thought it might be a nice idea to sum up the overarching thoughts and suggestions in the 20 pages of hate so the Dev team has a place to see what everyone is saying without having to pick thru all the vitriol to get any useful feedback and (hopefully) comment and/or get a dialogue going with the player base about what worked, what didn't, and what to do going forward.
Mod team: If this is in poor taste or needs moved, do with it as you will.
Forumites: If I missed any key points, please add them or let me know via pm and I will add them to the OP...but please, lets keep all of the hate, rage and negativity out of this thread. Use the existing 20 page thread for venting, lets keep this clean and helpful, and hopefully it can be a welcoming place for the team to interact with us and move forward.

What We Like About the New PvE Experience

1:) Communication of the change BEFORE it went live, so we knew what to expect
2:) Willingness to try something new
3:) Removal of strict timed clears to promote a play-at-your-own-pace experience
Great start, but this needs tweaked before it truly meets the intended goal (see below)
4:) Transparent enemy scaling and leveling
This is a neat idea, showing us the enemies gaining levels as we beat the nodes and capping them after a set amount of wins
5:) Enemy power levels being capped at 13/13 instead of 15/13
This is great, as facing opponents that had all three powers set to level 5 has never felt fair.

What We Don't Like About the New PvE Experience

1:) Increased time commitment
We went from 3 clears at 8 hour intervals (roughly 40 minutes each) +1 grind down at subs end (~2 hours), followed by a clear of the new sub (roughly 40 miuntes) for optimal scoring to a HUGE grind of 6-7 clears at the subs start (5-6 hours maybe?) + 1 grind down at subs end (~2-3 hours or more) AND another HUGE grind of 6-7 clears of the new sub for optimal scoring. This is far too much to ask. If the reward tiers were vastly expanded, this wouldn't be as big of an issue, as only the true hardcore would still try to do it. But as it stands, for a large portion of the player base, anything outside of t10 placement is nothing more than a few champion levels on a 3* and some ISO/HP. 100% NOT worth it for this level of time commitment required here.
2:) Removal of the easier nodes / "Smoothing" of difficulty curve
Many players (myself included) used these nodes to try out random teams for fun, collect some much needed ISO or just have *gasp* FUN playing the game. This is gone, and these nodes are now as difficult as any other node in the event, making clearing them a huge chore and honestly not worth the prizes offered.
3:) Over the top scaling and enemy levels
Challenging is one thing. Having literally every single node be one bad board or one cascade away from a wipe is a whole other, very unpleasant thing. Losing in this game is awful. You're out time, resources, characters, sanity...if the system needs to be set up in such a way that losing becomes more of a regular thing, then losing needs to be less painful.
4:) Drastic increase in overall difficulty for the same rewards as before
If the difficulty ramps up after each fight, the rewards should also. Finally beat that node that was giving you fits? Guess what...they gained 20 levels, here's 70 ISO for clearing it! That's not positive reinforcement, that's frustrating, and it does not foster repeat plays to any but the hardest of hardcore. If they gain 20 levels, any ISO payouts you haven't yet won should gain +200 ISO, and by say the 3rd clear if you haven't picked up the token, it should change to a Heroic or event token. The release rate and sheer cost of leveling characters means that no one but HUGE spenders are in any danger of running out of projects to work on for the next 5 years...loosening up the purse strings a bit in regards to in-game rewards is not going to break the game.
5:) Wave nodes offering nothing for repeated plays
I realize this is limited to certain events, and Enemy of the State is the worst possible case of this, but clearing a wave node multiple times while only getting prizes for the first time and each subsequent clear giving out absolutely NOTHING is no bueno. A possible way to mitigate this would be to have the wave nodes be worth 6-7x the points they are worth and then lock them out. One and done.
6:) by Forumite Request - Current scaling system makes it far easier for lower level rosters
A lot of players are observing that the leaders in their brackets are all players with either low-level rosters or intentionally **** rosters. Low level rosters I kind of get, their scaling is naturally lower, but one of the things this change was meant to address was the intentional underleveling of rosters to gain advantage in Story events, so that seems to not have worked. The leader in my bracket has nothing better than a championed 2* character on his roster, and several others in the t10 have a few 1-2 cover 5*s and nothing else better than unchampioned, mid-high level 3*s, so I can echo this as well. While higher level rosters are being scaled completely out of the event, the scaling for lower level rosters seems to be much easier to clear, which, at the end of the day, really isn't fair play. The challenge needs to be even across the spectrum of character tiers, not challenging but doable for 2-3* players bit nigh unto impossible for more advanced rosters.
:7) Players feel unable to use more than a few top tier characters
Sort of related to #2, the across the board increase in difficulty has made many of us feel forced to break out the A-Team for EVERY node. This gets repetitive quick, and makes us wonder what the point of having rosters full of cool characters is when we're only using 4-5 of them with any regularity.

I know I missed some stuff here, please add it as you see fit, but this is the overall gist of the 20 page thread...it's a lot of people saying the same things. Most of the vets are hating it, and a lot of newer players seem to be enjoying it...but eventually, those newer players will have the rosters the vets have, and they're going to pick up their pitchforks and march right along with us. Overall, I'm happy they are trying something new, but this needs some work. Hopefully the Dev team is willing to hear us out on this and tweak it, because with a little work, this could be a great setup for Story events.

Druss

Couldn't find a crying one!

TheWerebison

Seems like a coherent and concise collection of the thoughts going around. It is a very beneficial model for progression. It could use some tweaking (although I didn't have much difficulty). I used to do 3 complete runs of each node, sometimes 4, so if I can only attack each node 4 times, I haven't really lost anything. But of course, there are the grinders, who are used to doing much more.

TheWerebison

Actually, I will add one thing, which has become apparent on day 2. If a sub event lasts 48 hours instead of 24 hours, those nodes do not reset themselves. You will have to do the same nodes you did the day before, but now the enemies are all at the max level, or whichever level you left them at. That, in my opinion, is an incredible oversight, and should probably be addressed.

HaywireII

You forgot to mention that underleveled and undercovered rosters are outperforming people with fully built rosters. It seems the better your characters are the more you are punished for it.

Marine8394

It's not a complete fail. And it does need tweaking. Each accomplishment should not move anyone's roster toward eventual failure. I believe they legitimately conducted an effort to stop scaling. Ten point jumps just are too much, per goon, per defeat. It actually made it worse. Cut that down to a manable increment. My main concern is for the times they lock rosters. If they want this system to work tweak it and never lock a roster again. I do not spend money on a game to be told I cannot play by those I pay.

tanis3303

HaywireII wrote:

You forgot to mention that underleveled and undercovered rosters are outperforming people with fully built rosters. It seems the better your characters are the more you are punished for it.

Solid point, but I wouldn't necessarily say they are outperforming them so much as the higher level rosters saw the scaling, saw the lack of rewards for clearing it all out, and just walked away. If it was a new character release, I believe this would not be the case, and the vet rosters would find a way to make up those points

HaywireII

I have two rosters because I started a Steam roster before I found out there was no Facebook integration in Steam and I wouldn't be able to play one roster on both platforms. The PvE test is just easier to beat with a bunch of level 50 half covered or less 2* and 3* characters than it is with my regular roster.

tizian2015

HaywireII wrote:

I have two rosters because I started a Steam roster before I found out there was no Facebook integration in Steam and I wouldn't be able to play one roster on both platforms. The PvE test is just easier to beat with a bunch of level 50 half covered or less 2* and 3* characters than it is with my regular roster.

This could be intented. New players see they have success and invest money (give them many covers i.e. for the need of hp-buyed rosterslots), before their roster make some progress and then they see the problems... AFTER spending money (my story)...

Dragon_Nexus

I personally feel the difficulty increase is fine, but it starts at too high a base level.

The hardest node on my run through started at around level 196 for all three. That's quite doable for me and I'd need a really bad board to fail at that. However, each clear has raised it higher and after only clearing it twice they're at 270. That's at the point where I don't want to bother. And it'll increase 4 more times making a big bucket of nope.

I went into this with optimism but after only a day I just feel worn down by it. I actually liked the 8 hour structure. Now I feel like there's no deadline to anything, so I've got less reason to jump on. I really don't feel like doing several clears consequtively. One run through was always just enough for me before I'd want to do something else.

I think the idea behind this change is okay but keeping placement just ruins the idea. The idea of placement meant what I feel the core idea of "6 clears and you're done" had to be mitigated with "Oh, but to differentiate you from others, we'll still allow you to earn points, just not as many" afterwards.
This they kept 6-and-you're-done and made this purely progression focussed and started at a lower difficulty then I think we'd be onto a winner.

So in summary.
1) Have the nodes repeatable only to a certain point. 7 actually feels more realistic since that's how many prizes there are. No timers, no more points after the awards are earned.
2) Start the nodes at Trivial and work their way up to Hard at most, maybe a Deadly for the last node or two. starting at Easy or Normal just means things get drawn out quickly and it starts to feel like a test of endurance and patience.
3) Ditch placement entirely, make the rewards purely progression based. If you must have placement, have it be about your final score in relation to a set ideal, not comparative to other players. So for example, if the top progression stops at 80k, have the ideal score around 100,000 and have that award the 4* covers to anyone who manages to be at that score or higher at the end. If you only got 90,000 you maybe get one 4* cover instead. 80,000 gets you three 3* covers and so on. Have the final score be a target to aim for, not a ranking against other players.

3b) Alternatively have the old style 8 hour refresh for placement style PvE and this new system with tweaks for a purely progression based system.

generalTsobot

I would add the side-effect of eliminating roster diversity when playing events. My scaling automatically eliminates using any 2* characters outside of maybe the first clear of an early node or many 3* characters that aren't either boosted or pure AP generators. The result is that I'll end up using maybe 10 total characters for the entire event (some combination of IM40, Thoress, KK, Steve Rogers, Jean Grey, Scarlet Witch, Iceman; my ProfX isn't usable) plus essentials.

firethorne

I personally hate the potential for CP to become essentially unattainable.

With my transitioning roster, I'm fighting for scraps, and every single CP matters. To win a node a few times, but only win the ISO and lesser rewards, and see the enemies scale into the 300's where I'll wipe ever time, before the RNG drops the command point, is brutal.

Highdark

My feelings after day one of New PvE. I GUESS IM FOCUSING ON PVP NOW! I mean i have grinded these new nodes to from 175 to 300 with my 2 fully maxed 3* and im 400th in the event. I cant even get the progression rewards wth. This new system is untenable.

Miztiq

I don't mind the difficulty so much, more that it's become more of an demotivating, repetitive grind, playing the same nodes over and over for minimal gain.

At first I thought I'd like the fact that you can repeat nodes whenever, but now it just feels like a chore. The old timed refreshes meant you could get a sense of gaming satisfaction from doing a clear, then go do something else for a while.

tanis3303

aesthetocyst wrote:

You left off failure to scale rewards with increased challenge.

Players are burning more resources for the same return. This PVE is a shift toward making PVE a net negative.

Also, in my experience, this PVE test is forcing me to use a far more limited roster, not to save time, but just to be able to clear at all!

This is seriously undercutting the value of having a deep roster.

Nu-uh! Both those are covered under "things we don't like" #'s 4 and 2 respectively

BearVenger

I'd like to add that this wasn't an ideal PvE to try out this new format - 6x9 grinds, including 3 wave nodes, followed by a 24 hour wait before closing grind on a 48-hour sub? This is not a good tedium/boredom/panic balance, and it exposes that not even the dialogue or matchups change when an event is run again. I'd love something -in any PvE event- that rewards me for reading the cutscenes a second time.

I also think the placement prizes contributed to experienced vets sitting this one out. XFW doesn't get a lot of love on the board as a must-get 4*. If the t50 got 4Cyc or Quake, we might see a different leaderboard.

My roster is different than the "we"s and "ours" of the OP, and I see some things differently than him. However, the forum timed out my login, and I'm too tired to try typing it again. In brief tho: 9 of the top 10 in my bracket have rosters like mine: 5*s with 1-3 covers, followed by championed 3*s. I respect the time, investment, and frustration that maxed 4* and 5* rostered players have put in, but I would not like PvE events to block me from never being able to place well if I grind my heart out harder than the top-tier players.

SkyElf

I didn't read or post in the 20 page thread being summarized, but the summary covers most of what I was thinking.

I would like to suggest a tweak to the Transparent enemy scaling and leveling. I didn't always think to check or memorize the exact levels of my opponents before finishing each battle. They show the opponents gaining levels, but the level changed before I could see where it was starting from. Perhaps they could show the number of levels gained elsewhere on the screen while showing the levels go up, in much the same way they show points gained while showing total points go up.

The play at my own pace idea worked well today because I happened to have the day off. I could play for a while, then take a break to let characters heal and health packs recover. If I had been working today, I would have been playing at about the same times I usually do, except it would have taken longer because of the elimination of Trivial nodes and the requirement to do extra clears. This game already cuts into my sleep time without the changes.

whitecat31

Please add: A narrowing of roster options to clear nodes with. Because of the drastic scaling some of us have to go straight to the "A" teams to clear difficult nodes.

Xenoberyll

tanis3303 wrote:

What We Don't Like About the New PvE Experience

1:) Increased time commitment
HUGE grind of 6-7 clears at the subs start (5-6 hours maybe?) + 1 grind down at subs end (~2-3 hours or more) AND another HUGE grind of 6-7 clears of the new sub for optimal scoring. This is far too much to ask. If the reward tiers were vastly expanded, this wouldn't be as big of an issue

I disagree here...There's NO way that kind of time commitment should be in the game. There's no reward worth giving up your life. People would probably still be inclined to do it but that's human psyche. If d3 feels any kind of responsibility for their players they will trash that concept.

puppychow

Xenoberyll wrote:

tanis3303 wrote:

What We Don't Like About the New PvE Experience

1:) Increased time commitment
HUGE grind of 6-7 clears at the subs start (5-6 hours maybe?) + 1 grind down at subs end (~2-3 hours or more) AND another HUGE grind of 6-7 clears of the new sub for optimal scoring. This is far too much to ask. If the reward tiers were vastly expanded, this wouldn't be as big of an issue

I disagree here...There's NO way that kind of time commitment should be in the game. There's no reward worth giving up your life. People would probably still be inclined to do it but that's human psyche. If d3 feels any kind of responsibility for their players they will trash that concept.

Major props to OP for a well reasoned post summarizing the issues with the pve test experience. I definitely want to emphasize the time commitment issue. It took me 2 hours to grind half the nodes 6x in sub 1 before my heals were used up, and I stopped grinding at that point. It would have taken another 2 hours easily to finish the rest if I bought maybe 20 heals? and then the grind at the end could easily take 3 hours plus 20 more heals. That's sub 1. Then you roll over to sub 2 and start the process all over again, ON THE BACK of the grind prior to sub 1 expiration. That's where the time commitment is a killer in my view.

I like the fact that the game devs are seeking to broaden the appeal of pve to a wider player base by eliminating the timer for the first 6 hits. I assume that would be enough to reach CP progression (hopefully). But this format will drive the vets out of contention for t10,20, 50, etc., and these are the folks who will most likely buy heals. So I think what happens after the 6 hits per node needs to be thought out and reexamined again.

Some posters have suggested removing competitive placement from pve entirely a la Gauntlet. If the game devs feel the need to keep the competitive placement component, perhaps a simple chronological order of completion scoreboard may be a better approach. In other words, whoever finishes the complete clear 6x for all nodes first in a bracket should take first place, etc. The implicit time trial style of competition is as valid as the current scoring mechanism for placement. In summary, I'm proposing a placement system where whoever finishes 6x per node first should take the prize. That would eliminate the incredible time commitment for this new format, but still provide a fair method for player placement.

Inarius

so much for trying out new **** in what seemed to be an easy node, the first wave alone almost wiped me....str in numbers was doing 3.5k a pop



that wolverine kishu node is out of the question, caltrops at the 2.3k mark...nope

if this get's implemented, we won't even be able to test out stuff to what's what :-/