Poll: PVE Scaling

mpqr7

Before this new test PVE, what were your complaints about PVE scaling? Choose a few options that fit your concerns most!

Polares

Maybe a little bit late for this poll now that we have bigger concerns with PvE right now (like making it clear for Devs that this new PvE is a complete DISASTER).

But I have voted no matter what.

Crowl

I think this is the right time for the poll as devs will be focused on this issue and having it simply laid out what people thought were the problems might help them to adjust their thinking when it came to their 'solution' to the problem.

slidecage

Polares wrote:

Maybe a little bit late for this poll now that we have bigger concerns with PvE right now (like making it clear for Devs that this new PvE is a complete DISASTER).

But I have voted no matter what.

why is it a disaster

Polares

slidecage wrote:

Polares wrote:

Maybe a little bit late for this poll now that we have bigger concerns with PvE right now (like making it clear for Devs that this new PvE is a complete DISASTER).

But I have voted no matter what.

why is it a disaster

I think you can check the main thread, but I will list some of the problems

- Raising difficulty of ALL nodes (but giving the same rewards)
- RIP of roster (now you will need to use your best team allways)
- Raised the number of clears to deplete a node to 7
- Needing to play basically before and after every slice opens/closes to maximize scores
- Needing to play 4-5 hours in one go to place in top20
- 10 Health packs not enough for that long

PS: Of course this is a disaster for me, maybe not for you it you just play PvP

Crowl wrote:

I think this is the right time for the poll as devs will be focused on this issue and having it simply laid out what people thought were the problems might help them to adjust their thinking when it came to their 'solution' to the problem.

Yeah, maybe you are right

Unknown

My biggest issue with PVE is the fact that scaling in a node takes into account how you performed in the previous node. I HATE trying to tease down my characters health each node on my first run so I can keep my scaling low.

Does anyone know if this has been removed in the test system with Enemy of the State?

HaywireII

In the thread about the test they said that the increase in difficulty is fixed at the start of the event and doesn't change based on your performance or that of the community.

slidecage

Polares wrote:

slidecage wrote:

Polares wrote:

Maybe a little bit late for this poll now that we have bigger concerns with PvE right now (like making it clear for Devs that this new PvE is a complete DISASTER).

But I have voted no matter what.

why is it a disaster

I think you can check the main thread, but I will list some of the problems

- Raising difficulty of ALL nodes (but giving the same rewards)
- RIP of roster (now you will need to use your best team allways)
- Raised the number of clears to deplete a node to 7
- Needing to play basically before and after every slice opens/closes to maximize scores
- Needing to play 4-5 hours in one go to place in top20
- 10 Health packs not enough for that long

PS: Of course this is a disaster for me, maybe not for you it you just play PvP

Crowl wrote:

I think this is the right time for the poll as devs will be focused on this issue and having it simply laid out what people thought were the problems might help them to adjust their thinking when it came to their 'solution' to the problem.

Yeah, maybe you are right

yea i guess your right on the Have to start right when it opens...
playing 2 to 3 hours at start mostly since you should be able grind 6 times within a few hours.

they should never tested this out on wave nodes pve

Vhailorx

I like the idea of the poll, but I don't love any of the answers.

I basically have two problems with the old scaling system:

(1) the most difficult nodes were too toughrelative to the rewards offered and the number of times they had to be beaten. I don't mind hard nodes in the gauntlet. The idea there is to challenge your roster and see if you can figure out how to beat really hard opponents. the old PVE scaling system challenged you to be really hard opponents (and **** villain + 2 feeder nodes) as many times as possible as quickly as possible. It was not fun. getting some crit boosts afterwards didn't help much either.

and

(2) scaling sometimes punished players with weaker rosters for a lucky 5* pull, or for leveling one character too far above the rest of their roster. This potential risk was never adequately communicated to the players, and also undercuts the sense of progress that is really the most rewarding RPG aspect of this game.

neither one of those complaints is directly addressed by any of the offered answers. So I just picked tough nodes are too tough and rewards should scale with difficulty.

JVReal

My initial thoughts on this poll are what you think of the changes and current PVE, not what your thoughts were on past PVE's... Maybe clarify the title more.

Slarow

Polares wrote:

I think you can check the main thread, but I will list some of the problems

- Raising difficulty of ALL nodes (but giving the same rewards)
- RIP of roster (now you will need to use your best team allways)
- Raised the number of clears to deplete a node to 7
- Needing to play basically before and after every slice opens/closes to maximize scores
- Needing to play 4-5 hours in one go to place in top20
- 10 Health packs not enough for that long

I think everyone is missing the point with the PVE changes. Everyone is used to "play at optimal times, win basically every fight, and get a good placement". The only "Strategy" was timing your playing and winning fast. Losing never happened.

The new scheme means that you are going to lose, and people need to adjust to that. Your last bullet point about not enough health packs is the point. The strategy now is to fight smart, take on teams that you can defeat, and if you can't defeat them don't try or end up losing your health packs. The barrier you run up against now isn't timing or 1 point nodes, the barrier is teams you can't defeat.

Polares

Slarow wrote:

Polares wrote:

I think you can check the main thread, but I will list some of the problems

- Raising difficulty of ALL nodes (but giving the same rewards)
- RIP of roster (now you will need to use your best team allways)
- Raised the number of clears to deplete a node to 7
- Needing to play basically before and after every slice opens/closes to maximize scores
- Needing to play 4-5 hours in one go to place in top20
- 10 Health packs not enough for that long

I think everyone is missing the point with the PVE changes. Everyone is used to "play at optimal times, win basically every fight, and get a good placement". The only "Strategy" was timing your playing and winning fast. Losing never happened.

The new scheme means that you are going to lose, and people need to adjust to that. Your last bullet point about not enough health packs is the point. The strategy now is to fight smart, take on teams that you can defeat, and if you can't defeat them don't try or end up losing your health packs. The barrier you run up against now isn't timing or 1 point nodes, the barrier is teams you can't defeat.

We are again with the stupidity of "You have to lose"? I don't want to play a game to lose! And for the same stupid rewards ?!?!?!? I love Dark Souls games, you die a lot, but it is a fair game, you lose because you made a mistake, not because the game 'cheated' you, with a node with a char and two goons feeding that char. This is not the same by any means.

Then if you read what you said, basically PvE is now a pay to win game, who has more health packs is going to place better, and whoever can pay more is going to have more health packs. Great. Fantastic. Like if this game needed more pay to win....

Slarow

Slarow wrote:

Polares wrote:

I think you can check the main thread, but I will list some of the problems

- Raising difficulty of ALL nodes (but giving the same rewards)
- RIP of roster (now you will need to use your best team allways)
- Raised the number of clears to deplete a node to 7
- Needing to play basically before and after every slice opens/closes to maximize scores
- Needing to play 4-5 hours in one go to place in top20
- 10 Health packs not enough for that long

I think everyone is missing the point with the PVE changes. Everyone is used to "play at optimal times, win basically every fight, and get a good placement". The only "Strategy" was timing your playing and winning fast. Losing never happened.

The new scheme means that you are going to lose, and people need to adjust to that. Your last bullet point about not enough health packs is the point. The strategy now is to fight smart, take on teams that you can defeat, and if you can't defeat them don't try or end up losing your health packs. The barrier you run up against now isn't timing or 1 point nodes, the barrier is teams you can't defeat.

BTW I reiterated this point in its own thread so as not to hijack this one:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=41453

simonsez

You didn't include my complaints:

It was inconsistent between players with similar rosters

It rewarded people for intentionally gimping their rosters.

Slarow

simonsez wrote:

It rewarded people for intentionally gimping their rosters.

Can someone explain this?

JVReal

Slarow wrote:

simonsez wrote:

It rewarded people for intentionally gimping their rosters.

Can someone explain this?

People intentionally kept their fully covered characters at low levels to keep the enemies at low levels, but equal point value to those with higher scaling. Easier matches, same point value.

Championing helped eliminate some purposely low capped rosters, but scaling by covers instead of levels was theoretically going to reduce that benefit as well as reduce the detriment of a 1 covered 5*. Doesn't seem like it worked.

Slarow

JVReal wrote:

People intentionally kept their fully covered characters at low levels to keep the enemies at low levels, but equal point value to those with higher scaling. Easier matches, same point value.

Championing helped eliminate some purposely low capped rosters, but scaling by covers instead of levels was theoretically going to reduce that benefit as well as reduce the detriment of a 1 covered 5*. Doesn't seem like it worked.

Isn't pve scaling calculated based on your top 3 characters? How often does a 13 cover underleveled character actually affect this?

JVReal

Slarow wrote:

JVReal wrote:

People intentionally kept their fully covered characters at low levels to keep the enemies at low levels, but equal point value to those with higher scaling. Easier matches, same point value.

Championing helped eliminate some purposely low capped rosters, but scaling by covers instead of levels was theoretically going to reduce that benefit as well as reduce the detriment of a 1 covered 5*. Doesn't seem like it worked.

Isn't pve scaling calculated based on your top 3 characters? How often does a 13 cover underleveled character actually affect this?

Before this test, yeah it was something like that as well as how well you did in the previous node, if you did too good, the next one scaled a little bit more. So people soft capped their roster at 120, and kept everyone at or below that, and therefore were able to somewhat control the level of the enemies... until they pulled a 5* that starts out at level 255, uh oh!

Some kept all their characters at 94 so that their 3* were more powerful, but no extra penalty bringing them in over their 2* characters.

Vinmarc43

For me, scaling is still to high, they could go a bit lower still.
It`s not easier, that`s for sure.

simonsez

Slarow wrote:

Isn't pve scaling calculated based on your top 3 characters? How often does a 13 cover underleveled character actually affect this?

If you keep all your fully-covered 4*s at 166, and all your fully covered 3*s at 120, or whatever, PvE is/was far easier, because scaling is/was based on levels, not covers. Underleveled fully covered characters are deceptively strong.

cooperbigdaddy

So, I'm one of those people who soft-cap (around 108 or so currently), so I don't know if some vets will hate me, but I don't grind the optimum grind, so I hardly ever place high.

Also, since ISO is so scarce, I'm waiting until I can max a bunch of my characters which I am pretty much only getting thanks to DDQ and some fun PVP action every once in a while.

Does this scaling vs covers thing mean I now need to max anyone I can or can I stay soft-capped until I feel I can level enough characters to not be utterly destroyed by PVP and PVE scaling?

Or is this a question that can't be answered yet, since this new PVE is just a test?

I ask because I would get some covers in a few upcoming weeks of DDQ which would be my 14th cover for a few characters. If it doesn't matter on my levels and only looks at the number of covers, then I guess I should max my characters so I don't lose an extra cover I would get from DDQ and just try my bestest to compete until I can finally max everyone via DDQ. If it will go back to looking at levels as opposed to cover numbers, then I will just sell off the extra covers and max my people when I have a good enough number of characters that could handle a large scaling.

Do these questions make sense...?