What should have been the priority for 3* Spiderman?

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  • ClydeFrog76
    ClydeFrog76 Posts: 1,350 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I want this Spidey.

    WHERE IS THIS SPIDEY?!

    https://gliosservatoridelmultiverso.fil ... morlun.jpg
  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,938 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I voted for The Cause but the art change was such a great improvement *kudos to the art team* I really, really dig the new art, especially 1* Spider-man. <3

    However, that yellow ability.... *smh*

    Those in support of the current version of 3* Spider-man like him from a meta-design point of view. They see his usefulness for wave nodes and his synergy with other characters. They accept him for the support role character the design team intended for him to be. Such players are more interested in his ability set, to borrow aesthetocyst's terminology, rather than character accuracy.

    But one of the stated goals of the design team was to capture the flavor of a character, and without question, 3* Spider-man misses the mark. Sure, he has the stun but his Spider-sense power is a poor copy of Bullseye's adamantium bones ability and his Web Bandages is one of the most egregious example of design shoehorning in the game (a curse passed on to Spider-Gwen).

    Let's be honest: 3* Spider-man is the victim of designing choices that came at the expense of the character. There are no memorable instances of Spidey "healing" someone. In fact, one of the greatest Spider-man story's ever told revolves around his radioactive blood almost killing Aunt May after a blood transfusion. Part of the pathos of Spider-man is that he seems to bring harm to those closest to him, and yet, in stark contrast, in MPQ he "heals" everyone on his team.

    Moreover, he honestly isn't that fun to play. He has a passive move that is a mid-level defense ability, an admitttedly decent (but not great) stun and overpriced heal temporary heal abiltiy. The worst match in my MPQ career is when Spider-Man was the last man standing on my team fighting a buffed 1* Venom in a Simulator event. With no means to actually attack Venom, I spent a good 10-15 minutes chipping away at his health and healing myself. Does that sound like a Spider-Man fight to you?

    Of all the Spider characters released, 1* Spider-Man comes closest to capturing the essence of the character. Dynamic and quick with moves that synergize with each other he is a ton of fun to play. I play him every DDQ I can and hope to incorporate him some more into my PvE teams.

    However, I won't give up on 3* Spider-man. It is my hope that 3* Spider-man gets a rework that truly captures what is "Amazing" about him.
    Malcrof wrote:
    3* spidey loves to play spoiler, the AI uses his heal and his stun effectively, and if you are not careful, he can be your downfall.. not sure why all the hate.
    And Malcrof, if 3* Spider-Man has proven to be your downfall, you might want to re-consider your in-game strategy. As GMadMan040 more accurately ****, he has the potential to extend the length of a match but he is certainly not deadly and very rarely plays "spoiler". At least not the way I play the game icon_e_wink.gif
  • Calnexin
    Calnexin Posts: 1,078 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I use 3* Spidey. Mostly when boosted, but occasionally to fill a gap with some nice bonuses. He's never the primary choice.

    The game character fills a support niche, which generally doesn't fit in with the game meta. The competitive environment requires speed to avoid getting hit while unshielded. That's simply not tenable for Spiderman, who basically delays the game until your heavy hitters can finish the job. If you get caught with him as your last character, you can expect to either spend another 30 minutes finishing the match or retreat for more profitable ventures.

    I do have a gripe with the overall fit for the character. His powers are 100% defensive. To me, that's not Spiderman. He is (or was) one of the premiere Marvel franchises. Relegating him to watch other characters' backs while they bring the pain is almost offensive. If he gets an update I'd advocate keeping his blue and switching either the yellow or pink into something that does damage, preferably linked to # of web tiles on the board.
  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,938 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I voted for The Cause but the art change was such a great improvement *kudos to the art team* I really, really dig the new art, especially 1* Spider-man. <3

    Mostly an improvement, yes. I really miss this pose, tho...
    316?cb=20140928192646
    However, that yellow ability.... *smh* But one of the stated goals of the design team was to capture the flavor of a character, and without question, 3* Spider-man misses the mark...Part of the pathos of Spider-man is that he seems to bring harm to those closest to him, and yet, in stark contrast, in MPQ he "heals" everyone on his team.

    I've said it before and here it is again ... 3* Spidey has always seemed to be an attempt at the kids version of spiderman .... from silly '70s and early '80s cartoons and juveniles. Think Spidey & Friends. The type of tales in which he was cruising in the Spider Buggy and whipping up "web gliders". Yeesh. And in these stories, yes, he did employ web bandages, on himself, and his friends. Contributing to his decodes long career as international band aid salesman:
    61s9p-PPVdL._SY355_.jpgSpiderman-Band-aid.jpgSpider-Man-Band-Aids.jpg
    The worst match in my MPQ career is when Spider-Man was the last man standing on my team fighting a buffed 1* Venom in a Simulator event. With no means to actually attack Venom, I spent a good 10-15 minutes chipping away at his health and healing myself. Does that sound like a Spider-Man fight to you?

    Actually, yes it does. Thinking of his fights against any opponent that can match or exceed his strength, such as the Vulture, Lizard, Sandman, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Rhino, Hulk, etc., and again from the '60s thru the mid-'80s, these fights were basically endurance fests. Spidey could only frustrate and confuse these enemies, never hurt them or knock them out, often only lucking into tricking them into disabling (and very rarely killing (oops!)) themselves.

    And I feel your pain ... having fought Hulk 1-on-1 in MPQ with 3* Spidey. That took awhile icon_lol.gif

    I always took it that "Classic" indicated that this was supposed to be that Spidey. Not a popular version for a fighting game.

    I agree that Spidey pose was pretty cool and the best of the old set (even if it is for that abomination of a move).

    However, your best argument to justify the use of web bandages as an actual Spider-man "ability" is a 1980s cartoon show and commercial use of the character's image on band-aid boxes. Really? icon_rolleyes.gif lol

    Furthermore, any superhero worth his or her salt has faced challenges of endurance: Wolverine vs Sabertooth/Omega Red/Deadpool, Thor vs Hulk/Gorr/Cul and so on. They make for interesting stories. Yes, Spider-Man has probably got some of the best, most memorable fights of endurance but that shouldn't equate to him only being able to do damage through match damage.

    And for every story of endurance during the period you cited (60s- mid 80s) you also have feats like these:

    latest?cb=20051015014104

    Spider-man single-handedly taking down the Sinister Six.

    3809538-smvsxm.jpg

    Spider-man showing up the X-men in Secret Wars.

    latest?cb=20060526224317

    Spider-man beating Firelord (admittedly his most controversial win).

    For every endurance tale you can point to, there are equally, if not more, examples of Spider-Man laying the smack down. Even the "kids" version of Spider-man, which you have no basis for assuming is the model for this version, put up a fight.

    As Calnexin astutely pointed out, a 100% defensive Spider-Man does not feel like an Amazing or "Classic" Spider-Man at all.
  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,938 Chairperson of the Boards
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    lol aesthetocyst. You certainly are a persistent one, I'll give you that.

    Since it seems we are playing a DEADly serious game, I suppose I should take the proverbial "kid" gloves off.

    First, to your assertion that this is supposed to be "Spidey and Friends kids" version of Spider-man:

    Where in "the design of the character" is this supposed to be "Spidey and Friends"?
    -His stun ability? That seems par for the course. Nothing "Spidey and Friends" specific.
    -His Spider-Sense? Using his Spider-sense powers to help people escape danger is nothing specific to that TV show.
    -His Web Bandages? I'll concede that point to you.

    1/3. Not a very compelling case.

    But let's not stop there, shall we? Let's also consider the character description:

    Peter Parker struggles to balance his studies, work, family life, romance, and heroism. Protecting New York City using his proportional strength of a spider, tremendous agility, and web-shooters of his own invention, he is often late for dinner.

    What's this? No mention of Iceman or Firestar? Not even the word "friend".

    It seems the scales are not weighing in your favor, mon ami.

    How about we take a gander at the cover art for the character:
    theamazingspidermanvol231831_f.jpg

    Amazing Spider-Man #700 variant cover (published December 26, 2012)

    30 years after our beloved show Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends was first broadcasted.

    To indulge you a little bit further, let's for the sake of the argument accept that this is supposed to be a "kid friendly" version of Spider-Man. Please explain why a kid friendly version of Spider-Man cannot have a Web Swing or Spectacular Strategy-kind of offensive move? One wonders how does "kid friendly" Spider-man fight such foes like Dr. Octopus, Green Goblin and Venom? I am very much looking forward to hearing your explanation icon_e_wink.gif

    Next, your comment about 3* Spider-Man not being a 100% defensive character because he has match damage only exposes your disingenuity. Please recall that Calnexin and I are referring to his powers
    which he has three of, not 1 or 4, yes three, the number that comes before the aforementioned 4 but after the yet to be mentioned 2 which has now been mentioned. (sorry couldn't help myself icon_redface.gif)

    Now to get to the actual heart of the matter: 3* Spider-man was designed to be a support character. I will grant that he being one of the more positive and friendly superheroes in the Marvel universe probably played a hand in the decision to make him a support character but I will not go so far as to accept your speculation that he is supposed to be a "kiddy" version. This notion has never been expressed by anyone on the development team and there is nothing in his design to support this notion. (Are we to assume that Falcon is also a "kiddy" version?)

    The main problem lies with his lack of offensive ability which many feel should be his yellow ability (although honestly his Spidey-sense power should also be changed to something more equivalent to Hawkeye's evade, especially now that Green Goblin has such a monstrous attack move). In his stunlocking heyday, the yellow ability actually healed team members so no one was going to take issue with a power that was basically a free pass on health packs. But even then, in the famous words of forum legend Northern Polarity he was the "most boring" OP character. After the infamous "double nerf", Spider-man went from being a boring OP character to just plain boring.

    Then came wave nodes and for some this was Spider-Man's saving grace. I do not begrudge such players for their appreciation of Spider-man's niche role. They appreciate the utility of the skill set. The question is would they care if that skill set were applied to a different character?

    The issue so many of us take with 3* Classic Spider-Man is that he doesn't feel like Spider-Man. He wears the costume but where is his "tremendous agility" and "proportional strength of a spider" written in the character description? I love 1* Spider-Man because that feels like Spider-Man (and I am sure the devs took into consideration player feedback when designing him). I get that Bag-Man is supposed to be a joke but I won't abandon 3* Spider-Man to mediocrity just to meet a design paradigm.

    The devs have redesigned characters before who failed to hit the mark: 2* Hawkeye, the recent 3* buffs, and most pertinently the replacement of She-Hulk's Reprieve for Battle Cry. Despite my fellow Spider-man aficionado aesthetocyst's "kid friendly" pet theory explanation, I think many players would appreciate it if they gave Spider-Man an offensive ability (at the very least). Nothing OP but something fun and effective.

    It is my sincere hope that they one day make 3* Classic Spider-Man Amazing.
  • Captain_Carlman
    Captain_Carlman Posts: 208 Tile Toppler
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    I would have said fix his powers if that new art wasn't so damn good, though.
  • ClydeFrog76
    ClydeFrog76 Posts: 1,350 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Lot of people with NFI how much of a badarse never-give-up brawler Spidey is ITT.

    I weep for ol' Webhead, I really do.
  • Heartburn
    Heartburn Posts: 527
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    they made the wrong choice to build him as a support, there are much better characters for that role. in the spider-man comics he is certainly not a support role. also if you going 1 v 6, who is he supporting besides himself?

    I chalk it up to a missed opportunity, or poor design, it is nice to have spider-man in the game but they deliberately put him in the role where he can't consistently make the big plays to finish the match like he should be doing. Because of his skill set he can't take the lead, he can't become offensive, he can't make the plays we tell our friends about. if they made his yellow skill offensive then we would have a very different character then what we are stuck with.

    i would of like a spidey sense skill that when ever an enemy attacks the team there is a % chance for spidey to cause the target to dodge and for spidey to counter attack with a small/medium attack. this way we can punish the AI for getting super cascades like we should.
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
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    This char is not classic spidey AT ALL. We have to remember that he used to be out of any team for a lot of time, now he is in Avengers, etc. but he used to be a solo char, so he needs to be able to win battles on his own.

    I think devs need to change his yellow to red, and make a red attacking power. The other two powers are ok, but yellow has no sense in Spidey. Right now, the more Spideish of all is the 1* one.


    PS: His color scheme should have always been red-blue-whatever (red-blue-purple is probably the best combination). I don't know why devs decided to have him without a red ttack power...
  • CNash
    CNash Posts: 952 Critical Contributor
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    The AI has an additional advantage when playing Spidey: all of its heals are "true heals", as it doesn't have to worry about health packs.
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
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    ...
    Polares wrote:
    We have to remember that he used to be out of any team for a lot of time, now he is in Avengers, etc. but he used to be a solo char, so he needs to be able to win battles on his own.

    Irrelevant, until 3*s start appearing in solo matches a là 4* DDQ. MPQ is primarily a team game, and Spidey & Friends was a team show, perhaps the most team-oriented presentation of Spidey ever, and therefore, at least in that respect, the most relevant to MPQ. icon_lol.gif

    You are telling me this TV series is more famous than this one ?!?!?!?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUtziaZlDeE

    This is the classic Spiderman!!!

    Man it is not irrelevant. Spiderman has been mainly a solo player for almost all his career, it doesn't matter this is a team game, his abilities should be more focused on himself. And healing other players is completely stupid for a char like Spiderman.

    PS: It is also stupid for Gwen's yellow...
  • BumpoTheClown
    BumpoTheClown Posts: 74 Match Maker
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    Daredevil's red trap power would actually be a very good fit for Spider-Man. Surprise attacks that do a lot of damage but require quick thinking to set up properly. And for the big finish, Spidey tricks his opponent into using his own strength against himself for the knockout.
  • 20three
    20three Posts: 371
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    I would have said fix his powers if that new art wasn't so damn good, though.

    You're ridiculous

    Now he just looks like Kamala on offense, with his weak, bony fisticuffs....