Two thought about the current red decks

VacaNeon

In MtG, we know red represents chaos or barbaric, etc. And in MtGPQ, the concept is embodied by given the color more creatures with berserk or the ability to destroy gem blocks.

However, by doing so, this raises two concerns when you try to build a PvP deck that aims to farm as many points as you can within a limited time constraint.

1. You don't want creatures with berserker in your deck

Despite how much I love how Embermaw Hellion enables all friendly red creatures to deal 3 extra damage, I really hate its berserker ability.

I totally agree with Pandabear on this issue, when compared with vigilance/defender in efficiency on killing creatures, berserker is a joke. It only slows your deck down by making your creatures attack your opponent creatures instead of the PW. And the ability will get your creatures killed eventually as creatures in MtGPQ do not get healed at the end of the turn.

Moreover, to remove nasty opponent creatures, red has Exquisite Firecraft, Ravaging Blaze, Act of Treason + Fiery Conclusion combo, Scorching Strike (PW ability), etc. Red really really does not need berserker to do the job.

2. You don't want to put supports in your deck

Red is not friendly to supports, not even your own.

Some S tier red creatures such as Volcanic Rambler and Abbot of Keral Keep, you see them in nearly every red deck, they destroy blocks of gems when they come to the battlefield. And two of Chandra's ability also destroy gems when being used. By destroying some random gem blocks that often causes cascading, extra amount of mana is granted to red players. However, unless Hibernum Creations is going to give red supports more shields, I really see no points for red players to use supports which are removed by "friendly fire" more often than by your opponent.

Call of the Full Moon and Flameshadow Conjuring are great supports, just that they do not do well in a red deck.

Unknown

I think that red and blue are colors that actually can work with berserk and not being that slow. As you mentioned, red has a lot of ways to get rid of creatures without berserk so you can actually kind of choose if you want to hit the creatures or the pw with your berserk creature. But you still benefit from embermaws extra eng and ironas double face slap.
And blue works fine with berserk too. I have plate in my deck just to get berserk because with blues first ability you can kill every creature without getting hurt. And blue isn't slower with that cause he too can get rid of the creatures in other ways and even prevent them from being summoned.

The only color I wouldn't use berserk that much against is white cause murder investigation can be a pain then.

And yeah supports are kind of pointless with red. That's why I only use throwing knife cause it actually benefits from being destroyed. I think sword of the animist would work too because you become an even better support killer.

loroku

I like to think of red berserker creatures AS my defenders. They are just more proactive about it.

EDUSAN

im doing extremely well with my red deck

and i play it more as a control deck than a berserker, haste fast deck

i play my minions (i only use 4: Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Embermaw, the 4/3 reach and the volcanic thing), then i use 1 support (+2/+2 and berserker) and the rest is direct damage.

Once i place a minion on board (specially if its pia or embermaw) i jus defend it killing every creature the opponent plays. If it threat my minion i kill it with drect damage, if its embermaw and the other creature is weak i just leave the trumple + berserker do damage to both. f i run out of damage im using that card that discards one of my own and i draw 2 to keep my minions alive.

Im having quite a lot of success like that. Yes, sometimes with my 1st skill or volcanic or pia's skill i kill my own support, its not too frequent

VacaNeon

EDUSAN wrote:

im doing extremely well with my red deck

and i play it more as a control deck than a berserker, haste fast deck

i play my minions (i only use 4: Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Embermaw, the 4/3 reach and the volcanic thing), then i use 1 support (+2/+2 and berserker) and the rest is direct damage.

Once i place a minion on board (specially if its pia or embermaw) i jus defend it killing every creature the opponent plays. If it threat my minion i kill it with drect damage, if its embermaw and the other creature is weak i just leave the trumple + berserker do damage to both. f i run out of damage im using that card that discards one of my own and i draw 2 to keep my minions alive.

Im having quite a lot of success like that. Yes, sometimes with my 1st skill or volcanic or pia's skill i kill my own support, its not too frequent

Hmm, you don't use Abbot because you haven't got it yet or you just don't want to use it?

EDUSAN

because i dont have it

but im actually pretty happy with embermaw hellion and Pia. Volcanic does INCREDIBLE cascades from time to time, almost winning the game by itself

Pia is a 10/10 for 17mana. i Find it extremely efficient

my direct damage cards are the exquisite bla (6 damage for 6), the deal 4 damage to a creature and 4 to the player if you control 8 red gems for 6 mana, and JUST IN CASE (i normally use them to discard) the 1 mana spell that destroys a creature of my own to deal 5 damage.

loroku

EDUSAN wrote:

and i play it more as a control deck than a berserker, haste fast deck

You and I have extremely similar deck styles, with slightly different cards (just based on what we have, I'm sure). I don't have the Volcanic Rambler (I place low in every Red PvP just for that!) but otherwise we're really close. Mine sounds like it's a little more "kitchen sink" to deal with the variety of decks you see, but otherwise it's doing very well against every color. (I also don't have Abbot but I don't know where I'd put it, to be honest. It's like a Volcanic upgrade but at twice the upfront cost I don't know if it is. Maybe at level 50?)

One difference is that I use Iroas's instead of Embermaw. It's more expensive, and you don't get the +damage to everyone (and... I don't have Embermaw ) but first strike is insane - it is absolutely insane. Once you get it going with a Bloodlust or two, you win (well, except against blue - for that you need other tricks; also sometimes red can catch you if you don't put out targets for her 2nd power first... ok, and black can keep you from getting the card out if you don't get it out fast, but that's why I have a kitchen sink in my deck!).

Sidebar: one thing that's interesting to me is that people talk up Call of the Full Moon (+3/+2, berserk + trample for 13) but I find Brawler's Plate (+2/+2, berserk for 8) to be way more efficient, and it's colorless. (Both are uncommon.)

Unknown

Does anyone else think Berserker's Plate should've been a color support? It's quite efficient and, as pointed out above, can provide a brutal combo with Jace's -6/-0 loyalty ability. That's such a straightforward combo that even a poor AI can still use it by dumb luck to devastating results. This provides blue with a premanent removal option which seems like a really bad idea. Berserker's Plate feels much more like a G/R dual support than it does a colorless support to me. As a colorless support, it feels like it would be more balanced as a +1/+0 and Berserker, maybe +2/+0.

Unknown

ecoKady wrote:

As a colorless support, it feels like it would be more balanced as a +1/+0 and Berserker, maybe +2/+0.

That would do the opposite from what you want. While it would be worse for every other color, it wouldn't change a thing for blue because the combo does prevent the incoming damage anyway.

EDUSAN

loroku wrote:

One difference is that I use Iroas's instead of Embermaw. It's more expensive, and you don't get the +damage to everyone (and... I don't have Embermaw ) but first strike is insane - it is absolutely insane. Once you get it going with a Bloodlust or two, you win (well, except against blue - for that you need other tricks; also sometimes red can catch you if you don't put out targets for her 2nd power first... ok, and black can keep you from getting the card out if you don't get it out fast, but that's why I have a kitchen sink in my deck!).

Sidebar: one thing that's interesting to me is that people talk up Call of the Full Moon (+3/+2, berserk + trample for 13) but I find Brawler's Plate (+2/+2, berserk for 8) to be way more efficient, and it's colorless. (Both are uncommon.)

i use that support instead of call of the full moon, its just too expensive for +1 damage and trample

About iroas, i consider her TOO expensive for a 4/4. it can die from too many spells.

another card that i use is the one that destroys gems and deals 3 damage to myself. in this game 1 support in a bad moment can lose you the game

Unknown

EDUSAN wrote:

About iroas, i consider her TOO expensive for a 4/4. it can die from too many spells.

Calling her just a 4/4 that's as if you say, colossus is too expensive for a 6/6.

Iroas is one of the hardest to kill creatures.

EDUSAN

is there something about that creature that i dont know?

it has double strike, not first strike. It kills an 8/8 but a 4/1 kills her? unless double strike works as first strike twice?

Unknown

Double strike is first strike for the first attack and normal for the second.

OhanaUnited

Iroas is so easy to kill. Put out a Ghirapur Aether Grid (zap 1 dmg to first creature) and use Chandra's Scorching Strike (2 or 3 dmg to target creature). Now you can thank Iroas for wasting her owner's 19 mana for practically doing nothing.

Embermaw Hellion's berserk can be easily addressed. Get your 3 mana or 4 mana goblins out first and then summon Embermaw Hellion. Every time those goblins deal damage, target your opponent's creatures on board first for 3 extra damage. When your opponent doesn't have any more creatures, then redirect all damages to player and you don't have to worry about berserk killing Embermaw Hellion.

Unknown

OhanaUnited wrote:

Iroas is so easy to kill.

Well if you play red, then almost every creature is easy to kill.

loroku

EDUSAN wrote:

is there something about that creature that i dont know?

it has double strike, not first strike. It kills an 8/8 but a 4/1 kills her? unless double strike works as first strike twice?

Sorry, you're right - she has double strike. As above: it strikes with first strike, and then hits again. But double strike isn't even what makes her good - just first strike is enough.

A 4/1 does not kill her. A 10/4 does not kill her, or even hurt her. She only dies to a 4+ / 5+ (meaning, it must have 4 or more attack and 5 or more health). Having double strike means she can also trade for an X/8 (only 2 cards start with 9 health), and she does 8 damage to the opponent if unblocked.

But what makes her specifically so good is being played in a red deck. Because that means she can kill up to an X/7 without taking damage, thanks to your 2nd power. And only 7 creatures start with higher health than that, and nearly all are more expensive than her. Or you can hit her with one Bloodlust, and now she can kill or trade for anything in the game, outside of another super buffed creature.

Like I said, double strike is really just gratuitous - it just helps kill really big creatures and speed up your win. I think it's just the combination of first strike, berserker, a decent body, and red's power that make her so good. She can just hit and hit and hit all day and never die, as long as you take care to protect her.

OhanaUnited wrote:

Iroas is so easy to kill.

Well, yeah. Firecraft and Ravaging Blaze take her out instantly for 6 mana vs. her 19 cost. Red's 2nd power will down her in two turns. Blue can frog her or bounce her for nearly nothing, getting a huge tempo boost. She's not invincible. And flyers laugh at her. But - and believe me, I know - not every deck has an easy answer to her.

Like green - oh, green - is just going to die. Green can't do anything to stop her in a red deck (other than Great Aurora which no sane person would use) without a major cascade because she can kill pretty much anything green gets out before they can buff it in time. White will have a hard time too, although Murder Investigation is a soft counter to any berserker (but red has support destroyers). White can also just swamp the board with flyers and pounce on red's low starting health.

The point isn't that this is the best card ever - it's just a strong card in a red deck, with proper support.

loroku

*One caveat: I tend to play at levels lower than 50, so I don't see a lot of Zendikars or Hangarbacks or other heavies that can ruin Iroas's day. She's probably less useful when your opponents have better cards, and fewer creatures with 4 or fewer HP. And I tend to see a LOT of green opponents - maybe because everyone has green? - which red seems sort of naturally good against anyway.

Unknown

Don't play Iroas vs red or blue.

Dies too easily vs red, waste of mana vs blue as blue has flyers, and iroas will get -6 (or worse yet, -3 which allows her to still attack), bounced, etc.

Absolutely fantastic against red and really depressingly good vs black (esp if you have a cheap "fodder" creature like volcanic rambler to tank any removal spells).

Hard countered by murder investigation in white =P

span_argoman

I find Iroas better in Gideon than Chandra though. His +X/+X abilities are doubly effective on Iroas due to her double strike.

If Iroas is your first creature, Knightly Valor gives +2/+2 and Vigilance for defending, if you haven't already gotten it from Gideon's first ability. The other +X/+X supports also stay alive longer for Gideon than for Chandra due to her board destruction.

*edit*
Back on topic regarding Red, Volcanic Rambler and Abbot of Keral Keep are both very nice cards. Abbot may seem expensive but you gain back 6 mana on an unknown card so it's actual cost is almost always 9 mana which is only slightly more expensive than Volcanic Rambler.

I'm still undecided whether Embermaw Hellion is worth it considering my current deck creatures (Iroas, Keral, Rambler, Skyraker, Hellion). It complements Iroas nicely but otherwise it seems like it suits a Thopter deck more. Akroan Sergeant also benefits from Hellion.

Unknown

Yea they're also doubly useless when she berserks instead of hits the pw.

span_argoman

Indeed, but the +X/+X make up for it a fair bit. Say you can consecutively give Iroas +1/+1 over 3 turns. Iroas goes from 5/5 (first attack) to 7/7. If the first/second/third attack is diverted by Berserk, you deal 26/24/22 damage vs 24 for unboosted in Red. And the differential will only increase over turns. The effects of supports will amplify the differential further.

*edit*
Also, against Jace, Gideon can bring Iroas above 6 power so that Confusion doesn't just nullify that double strike goodness.