Give us 4* rewards for 4* meta

wymtime

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

bpcontra wrote:

"I wish I never opened this post....I'm now depressed "

-Every 3* transitioner

You realize, we're arguing that 3* rewards replace 2* rewards make your 3* progression more accessible as well?

This affects everyone. The current antiquated rewards structure also makes it harder for newer players, such as yourself.

This is the biggest reason to make 4* more awarded in PVP. The last PVP I hit 1300 and was only top 100. I have had she hulk maxed for ages. Top 50 for a 4* and top 150 for a 3* is the way the game should go. This way players can win covers for the tier they are in. People who have 4* and are trying to win more 4* should be able to get 4* rewards while 3* players who are still building 3* should be able to. I can't image the player excited to hit 800 in my PVP bracket and get top 150-200 for a shiny 2* cover. Yes that might help champion a 2* but it really does not help that much transitioning to 3* land.
Then again I could be wrong.

Dauthi

stowaway wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

Personally, as a player who gets top 50 every PVP and PVE, hits 1k every PVP, and gets all the 3*/4* alliance rewards, the balance is perfect. {snip} I am curious what other players are doing that they have too many covers or too much ISO.

First of all, by definition you're a top 10% slash top 5% player, according to your own description of yourself. And not just in one gameplay mode, but both. Not many players compete equally in both PvP and PvE. It shouldn't surprise you that your experience isn't typical.

Second, you've been playing a long time. The longer you've played, the more likely you are to have hoarded iso, or to have already spent it on mid-tier characters because you had nothing better to do with it. Nick Fury is a great gauge for this. When championing hit, did you already have Nick Fury at 270? Newer players may have worked hard to get him max covered, but not bothered to invest as much iso in him because the meta had passed him by. So that's someone who competed to be equal to you in terms of covers, but who will always be behind you due to days played. Oh well!

Finally, there's the complicated issue of Championing having flooded the market with covers. If you were a solid 3* player, but struggling to transition to 4* (and especially if you were hoarding tokens and keeping covers in your queue because you'd been spoiled that Championing was coming), you probably got 10, 20, 30 random 4* covers in the first week. Suddenly you were a 4* player, past the transition, but with no iso because you spent it all championing 3*. I suspect those are the people who are feeling the iso crunch the worst.

I don't mean any criticism by it. You said you were curious, so I explained it.

I wasn't clear, but I opened with how I play so other players who are able to hit 1k, and choose to play PVE, can make a comparison to me. Virtually any player can compete in PVE, but PVP rewards are locked by roster.

In regards to 3*s having a 4* cover shortage, before championing I had too much ISO, in fact I had something like 500k ISO hoarded and characters like Nick leveled because I had nothing better to do. I just needed more covers. This changed when I was able to champion all my 3*s, flooding me with legendendary tokens, like you say, and balancing my abundance of ISO with more covers. If you are transitioning and starved for 4* covers, the first step seems to be to champion most of your characters, not only to make them stronger and receive better rewards, but because of the legendary token at 167.

Dragon_Nexus

stowaway wrote:

Finally, there's the complicated issue of Championing having flooded the market with covers. If you were a solid 3* player, but struggling to transition to 4* (and especially if you were hoarding tokens and keeping covers in your queue because you'd been spoiled that Championing was coming), you probably got 10, 20, 30 random 4* covers in the first week. Suddenly you were a 4* player, past the transition, but with no iso because you spent it all championing 3*. I suspect those are the people who are feeling the iso crunch the worst.

This is 100% me. When championing hit I had maybe two or three 3*s who weren't level 166. I spent all my ISO on championing the 3*s I got spare covers for and then excess ISO on finishing the 3*s so no cover would go to waste. I championed my last 3* and got my last free legendary. Suddenly my useless Xpool had 13 covers and was surprisingly perfect first time and I've tried to get him levelled up since. I was puzzled for a second tonight that my level 221 Xpool needed 78k ISO to max and yet my level 176 Thoress needed 77k. Then I read the button more closely. 78K to get to level 244.

I thought 78K to max was bad enough, but good lord this is going to take ages.

I suddenly feel like I can use my 4*s since a lot of them stopped being 3-6 cover roster-space-wasters but the ISO required to get them to a point where I don't look like an easy target in PvP is pretty high. And with 3*s getting nerfed I suddenly feel a lot less competitive than before championing hit.

Felessa

fmftint wrote:

Pve needs a progression 4☆ (essential character)

THIS, 1000% THIS !!!

There's already one cover for the 2* and 3* essencial in the PvE progression structure, so why not for the 4* one too? I think somewhere between the 3* and the LT (about 75% of progression) would make sense.

I am finishing to champion my 34 3*s (only 4 left), and I NEVER hitted the 1K mark in PvP for 4*s covers (don't have the time, resources and "stomach" for it...), so that could be something that would really help my transition

simonsez

notamutant wrote:

Play smart, and save your iso for only good characters, not **** ones like Cho and Failcap.

I have everything in the top and upper-middle tier champed already. And my OML is at a level I'm comfortable with for now. And my other 5*s don't have enough covers to make them viable. So if my options are to level up the lower mid-tier 4*s to have a wider selection of OP boosted options, or to champ lower mid-tier 3*s to use them in their PvP twice a year, which option would be "playing smart"?

TxMoose

Dragon_Nexus wrote:

stowaway wrote:

Finally, there's the complicated issue of Championing having flooded the market with covers. If you were a solid 3* player, but struggling to transition to 4* (and especially if you were hoarding tokens and keeping covers in your queue because you'd been spoiled that Championing was coming), you probably got 10, 20, 30 random 4* covers in the first week. Suddenly you were a 4* player, past the transition, but with no iso because you spent it all championing 3*. I suspect those are the people who are feeling the iso crunch the worst.

This is 100% me. When championing hit I had maybe two or three 3*s who weren't level 166. I spent all my ISO on championing the 3*s I got spare covers for and then excess ISO on finishing the 3*s so no cover would go to waste. I championed my last 3* and got my last free legendary. Suddenly my useless Xpool had 13 covers and was surprisingly perfect first time and I've tried to get him levelled up since. I was puzzled for a second tonight that my level 221 Xpool needed 78k ISO to max and yet my level 176 Thoress needed 77k. Then I read the button more closely. 78K to get to level 244.

I thought 78K to max was bad enough, but good lord this is going to take ages.

I suddenly feel like I can use my 4*s since a lot of them stopped being 3-6 cover roster-space-wasters but the ISO required to get them to a point where I don't look like an easy target in PvP is pretty high. And with 3*s getting nerfed I suddenly feel a lot less competitive than before championing hit.

add me there too. I was hitting 1K well before I had usable 4*s, so covers started coming in. once I was close on hb and jean, bought 3 covers between them and then started hitting 1300 regularly shortly after. covers were rolling in. I also whaled a couple of characters, but really only put more than 1 cover on 3 characters, 2 on jean and several on ice and cyke, so that added to my iso shortage, but not severely. I estimate I scrap together about 150K iso/week - probably 80-90K through the 2 LR days and ~12K or so the rest of the days, depending on how hard I'm hitting pve. solid players can easily average 8-12 covers/week (pvp = 6, pve = 1-4 depending on a release event, ddq = 1+, plus token pulls). even a top iso earner cannot keep up with that rate of covers.

I think one of the interesting dynamics is that during the 4* transition, it feels like covers are coming in so slow because each cover isn't really making a difference on the character. going from 3 to 5 or even 6 to 8 covers doesn't really do anything other than start making them viable for ddq day. however, towards the end of the transition, every cover means huge leaps in usefulness and huge leaps in iso to get to level max and all of the sudden you find yourself needing millions of iso just to do the top guys, not including the 'bottom half'. I was probably a little past half way through my cover transition when champing hit and it, along with whaling ice and cyke, basically finished my cover transition, but literally did nothing to help me with iso. in fact the iso I spent on many 3*s getting them to 166 meant my 4s level progress completely stopped for several weeks - probably more than a month. and here I am again working on a 3* in im40. but I know he will be key support for my 4s (already is).

before champing hit, I was completely convinced that there was a shortage of access to 4* covers. I'm finding now that I have covers, the end game limiting factor is all iso. truthfully I'm playing right not for nothing except iso and OML yellow. the kicker is that I can't open LTs until I get at least a few more key 4s maxed or i'll be wasting covers. I want to at least finish 4thor and xpool before I start pulling again and rulk will be added as soon as I pull that 3rd red. that's still 850K iso needed just for those 3 characters after I finish im40 next week some time. that's probably at least 2 months away - just for those 3 characters (plus getting a few up to 145 for ddq). in the meantime another 4 new characters will hit and probably another 5*. iso really needs to be addressed for the top of the game. I completely understand that 2* and 3* players don't need the extra iso, but it gets pretty ridiculous at the top.

simonsez

firethorne wrote:

the existence of a second problem isn't a good excuse for not fixing the first.

I'm rereading my post, and I can't find the part where I said I was against any changes. What I DO see is me saying is, "I don't need covers" and "For me, covers aren't the constraint". And it's not like I'm a spokesman for the top 1%. I'm sometimes PvP T50, sometimes not. So I can't be alone on this. We don't have reason to expect the devs to take on a lot at once, so if we're looking for them to prioritize what needs fixing, there's nothing wrong with saying ISO reassessment should be first on their plate. Everyone needs ISO. Not everyone needs covers. That's pretty much my point.

simonsez

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

You appear to be arguing that covers should limit the rate of progression not iso.

Actually no. I think they need to be balanced. We shouldn't have rosters with an 8 million ISO hole. At whatever rate they choose to give covers, there should be ISO available to level up these characters by the time you cover max them. It doesn't make any sense to have fully covered level 70 4*s because you're still stuck working on leveling older/better characters. A player who hits every progression in every PvE/PvP, and clears every node reward in PvE, plays DDQ every day, hits LRs fairly hard, shouldn't be looking at an ISO hole that grows bigger and bigger with each character release. That's a broken economy that makes no sense to me. The idea is to keep us running in a hamster wheel, not to put us on a treadmill that's moving faster than we can. At this point, more covers just means a bigger ISO hole for most people.

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

Regardless if one sides that iso or covers should be used to control the rate of game progession, there is no need to have TWO means of control. It is overkill.

Agreed. They need to be balanced better so that in tandem, they represent a single constraint.

firethorne

simonsez wrote:

I'm rereading my post, and I can't find the part where I said I was against any changes.

And I don't see any place where you're for them. I do see the part where you disagree with a post headed toward triple digit upvotes, and seeing the core thesis of said post is more accessibility to 4*s, it's hard to get the impression that you agree.

What I DO see is me saying is, "I don't need covers" and "For me, covers aren't the constraint". And it's not like I'm a spokesman for the top 1%. I'm sometimes PvP T50, sometimes not. So I can't be alone on this. We don't have reason to expect the devs to take on a lot at once,

It isn't a lot. Changing the reward tree isn't rocket science. And if it is a huge programming problem, then they've made a system so convoluted they should be sacked anyway.

so if we're looking for them to prioritize what needs fixing, there's nothing wrong with saying ISO reassessment should be first on their plate. Everyone needs ISO. Not everyone needs covers. That's pretty much my point.

And my point is someone who has most of these covers may not be in the best position to judge how much of a priority it is for those of us that don't.

bpcontra

The fact is, no casual player is going to have a shot in hell of being competitive in this game due to the extreme difficulty of obtaining 4* covers.

I'm 400 days in and have 18 3* championed and almost every other 3* max covered. In the She-Hulk pvp I couldn't hit 1000 with maxed She-hulk, Fist, and Cage because I was running into 4* jean/cyclops/hulk buster type teams. I simply could not win fast enough to properly shield hop. Fist/cage maxed and boosted with another max boosted 3* is essentially the BEST possible team I can put out there. If I still can't get a 4* reward with that team, I am utterly screwed.

With the sheer number of 4* it's so hard to effectively cover with LT. I really don't see any path toward making the jump to 4* play. This needs to be addressed and I appreciate the OP bringing this up

Stax the Foyer

The discontinuity of resource requirements is a big issue too, with champing.

Getting a 3* character to 166 isn't the end of the road anymore. Progression continues beyond that point. However, the massive ISO costs to max out a character are no longer at the end of the character progression, they're at a midpoint.

The issue of covers versus ISO is really a question of how close to max covering your characters you are. The 13th cover for a 4* opens up an an ISO hole that corresponds to about 4 days of near optimal playtime to fill, whereas the first several covers for a 4* combined require a trivial amount of ISO.. That's even more pronounced at the 3* stage. If you're not feeling the ISO shortage, just play for a few more months and it'll come.

Once you're on the other side of that championing hump, though, your characters continue to progress (albeit at a much slower rate) purely based on cover acquisition, with no ISO investment. In fact, that progression is resource-positive, if not strictly ISO-positive.

It wouldn't fix everything, but it would be great if the 1 cover ----> 1 level system that's in place for championed characters could be retrofitted into the pre-championing system. Then you don't have the massive discontinuity once you champion a character, where the 13th cover requires a crazy amount of ISO resources, but the 14th to 113th covers don't require any resources at all. It wouldn't fix everything, but you'd have the option to continue leveling your characters at a very slow rate for only the opportunity cost of the cover sale.

Right now, I have several 2*s and 3*s that are unchamped, and will remain unchamped for the remainder of my MPQ career. It would be nice to be able to dump some of those Moonstone covers into levels, and gradually level and champ the rest of my roster. Not gamebreaking, and wouldn't fix everything, but it would be a nice quality of life change.

simonsez

firethorne wrote:

And I don't see any place where you're for them.

I'm not going to read anything past this, because you're being completely ridiculous. Respond to what I SAY. Don't make assumptions about things I'm not saying. Do I seem like the kind of poster who holds back opinions?? Believe me, if I were against this change it would've been abundantly clear, and you wouldn't have had to infer it.

firethorne

simonsez wrote:

firethorne wrote:

And I don't see any place where you're for them.

I'm not going to read anything past this, because you're being completely ridiculous. Respond to what I SAY. Don't make assumptions about things I'm not saying. Do I seem like the kind of poster who holds back opinions?? Believe me, if I were against this change it would've been abundantly clear, and you wouldn't have had to infer it.

I'm sorry I misunderstood you saying,"I can't believe I have to disagree with a post headed towards triple-digit upvotes" was supposed to indicate you were in favor of the proposed changes. My bad.

Unknown

I agree

I made a post about this rewards about a week ago

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40100&e=0

today at leat the top50 should win 4*

Malcrof

Please keep this thread civil and on topic, thanks

Pylgrim

Stax the Foyer wrote:

The discontinuity of resource requirements is a big issue too, with champing.

Getting a 3* character to 166 isn't the end of the road anymore. Progression continues beyond that point. However, the massive ISO costs to max out a character are no longer at the end of the character progression, they're at a midpoint.

The issue of covers versus ISO is really a question of how close to max covering your characters you are. The 13th cover for a 4* opens up an an ISO hole that corresponds to about 4 days of near optimal playtime to fill, whereas the first several covers for a 4* combined require a trivial amount of ISO.. That's even more pronounced at the 3* stage. If you're not feeling the ISO shortage, just play for a few more months and it'll come.

Once you're on the other side of that championing hump, though, your characters continue to progress (albeit at a much slower rate) purely based on cover acquisition, with no ISO investment. In fact, that progression is resource-positive, if not strictly ISO-positive.

It wouldn't fix everything, but it would be great if the 1 cover ----> 1 level system that's in place for championed characters could be retrofitted into the pre-championing system. Then you don't have the massive discontinuity once you champion a character, where the 13th cover requires a crazy amount of ISO resources, but the 14th to 113th covers don't require any resources at all. It wouldn't fix everything, but you'd have the option to continue leveling your characters at a very slow rate for only the opportunity cost of the cover sale.

Right now, I have several 2*s and 3*s that are unchamped, and will remain unchamped for the remainder of my MPQ career. It would be nice to be able to dump some of those Moonstone covers into levels, and gradually level and champ the rest of my roster. Not gamebreaking, and wouldn't fix everything, but it would be a nice quality of life change.

Excellent post. The part I bolded for emphasis made me think: Would some of the current Iso shortage be solved if sale cost of covers were increased across the board to approach the 1 cover=1 level of championing? I.e. a 2* cover would give 1000 Iso, a 3* one, 2000 and so on? With the amount of 2* covers a veteran player opens per day, it may very well be enough to placate the voracious beast that 4* characters are.

It would be a less "clean" solution than just 1c=1l, but it would keep 2* covers relevant even after fully championing those characters and it would introduce an interesting choice by making championing comparatively Iso-negative (though I guess they could always increase the Iso rewards at the highest levels of championing to make it less harrowing).

Stax the Foyer

Pylgrim wrote:

Stax the Foyer wrote:

The discontinuity of resource requirements is a big issue too, with champing.

Getting a 3* character to 166 isn't the end of the road anymore. Progression continues beyond that point. However, the massive ISO costs to max out a character are no longer at the end of the character progression, they're at a midpoint.

The issue of covers versus ISO is really a question of how close to max covering your characters you are. The 13th cover for a 4* opens up an an ISO hole that corresponds to about 4 days of near optimal playtime to fill, whereas the first several covers for a 4* combined require a trivial amount of ISO.. That's even more pronounced at the 3* stage. If you're not feeling the ISO shortage, just play for a few more months and it'll come.

Once you're on the other side of that championing hump, though, your characters continue to progress (albeit at a much slower rate) purely based on cover acquisition, with no ISO investment. In fact, that progression is resource-positive, if not strictly ISO-positive.

It wouldn't fix everything, but it would be great if the 1 cover ----> 1 level system that's in place for championed characters could be retrofitted into the pre-championing system. Then you don't have the massive discontinuity once you champion a character, where the 13th cover requires a crazy amount of ISO resources, but the 14th to 113th covers don't require any resources at all. It wouldn't fix everything, but you'd have the option to continue leveling your characters at a very slow rate for only the opportunity cost of the cover sale.

Right now, I have several 2*s and 3*s that are unchamped, and will remain unchamped for the remainder of my MPQ career. It would be nice to be able to dump some of those Moonstone covers into levels, and gradually level and champ the rest of my roster. Not gamebreaking, and wouldn't fix everything, but it would be a nice quality of life change.

Spoiler tagged for brevity.

Excellent post. The part I bolded for emphasis made me think: Would some of the current Iso shortage be solved if sale cost of covers were increased across the board to approach the 1 cover=1 level of championing? I.e. a 2* cover would give 1000 Iso, a 3* one, 2000 and so on? With the amount of 2* covers a veteran player opens per day, it may very well be enough to placate the voracious beast that 4* characters are.

It would be a less "clean" solution than just 1c=1l, but it would keep 2* covers relevant even after fully championing those characters and it would introduce an interesting choice by making championing comparatively Iso-negative (though I guess they could always increase the Iso rewards at the highest levels of championing to make it less harrowing).

Yeah, even making that change for 3* and 4* covers would be a positive move. Given the 1* and 2* cover availability as PvP awards, upping their sale prices might not be something that the developers would do, but a cover sale price that was at or close to the cost of a maximum level cost for that tier makes sense.

Some other tweaks would have to be made (the 1500 ISO rewards from DDQ vaults would probably have to be increased, for example), and the ISO awards in the championing tables would have to go up, but it seems like it could be implemented pretty easily if they wanted.

madok

I still think they need to add a zero to all the progression ISO rewards in PVP and PVE events. That would help increase the trickle as well and can't be abused.

The Bob The

BlackBoltRocks wrote:

PvP: lower the 4* cover requirement to 800 or 900 points. I can usually hit 800 with my championed 3*; again, one 4* cover every 3 days is hardly game-breaking, is it?

Tweak to this. I think 4*s at 800 in the current PVP is trouble. You'd easily get 2* players building them, jumping the 3* game (it was good enough for me, you'll eat it and like it!!). Instead, Howbout they introduce regular 4* PVP and have them as the 800 prize there?

Dragon_Nexus

The Bob The wrote:

You'd easily get 2* players building them, jumping the 3* game (it was good enough for me, you'll eat it and like it!!).

As opposed to the current system where they can just redeem 20CP for a 5* character and skip the 3 and 4* transition completely?