So sick of "random" AI mega cascades -_-

Unknown

Is it just me or does anyone else feel that The AI is somehow favored when it comes to match gameplay? I cant help but notice that I'm always unknowingly setting up the AI for some awesome cascade that just happens to drop solid chunks of colors, I mean like AI clears a vertical 4 match, and in drops six blue gems all on top of each other followed by another cascade of solid white for like twenty mana. Then when I get the same set up, in drops a tinykitty load of tinykitty. Worthless... And when you're trying to play a mana-deny match strategy, let's say there's a potential 4 match available for the AI and you decide to deny, so you make your move just to see the same color gem drop into the same spot you were trying to deny a match, or even better in drops a perfect set up for a 5 match followed by a disgustingly cheesy AI cascade that pretty much can lose the match for you about 80% of the time.

It seems like this is a cheap and easy way to make the quick battles have a bit more challenge to them but all it really does is piss people off and draw more awareness to a "not so random" RNG. I want to believe that the match algorithms aren't biased, but I don't...

BlackSheep101

Try keeping track of the number of times you get a cascade in your favor allowing you to cast multiple cards, or one expensive cards, in one turn. It happens both ways, but the tendency is to forget when it happens in your favor.

Unknown

I think in the beginning of each match ai is favored with the start colors. If the ai plays a different pw as you, there will be more of it's maincolor then ours is my feeling.
But since we always start this is not a real problem. You just have to really pay attention to the ai s color the first move.

I don't think that ai s matching is too efficient. The opposite is true imho. How often does the ai match 4 when it could have done 5 instead.

And if you have the feeling that the ai has too many cascades it can come from supports and pw abilities.
Also human mind always looks for proof of ideas and hypothesis that one has and is ignoring every proof for the opposite.

Unknown

Well I've been playing since before the official release, and I've paid attention to how the AI has developed from early on. And when the AI doesn't match 5 when it can, that IS an indicator of the AI scripting. So then the question is, if the AI is being hindered on one front (not matching 5) how does the programming compensate in order to level the playing environment? Easy. Better luck on gem drops from outside the play field, meaning the fresh gems that drop into play. I don't have hard numbers to give because I won't waste my time to keep them (it's just a game after all). So make of it what you will, it's still a great game.

Irgy

Why would they make the AI do deliberately bad moves only to then stack the random drops? That's an absolutely idiotic approach. There's some silly things in this game but the pattern to all of them is the easiest to implement option, not something convoluted and pointless like this.

It's a well known fact that people remember these things selectively and always feel hard done by, so your experience is no evidence to me whatsoever. If anything, if nobody complained about the random drops being stacked against them I'd start to suspect they were stacked in our favour. So thanks for resolving that problem. But otherwise please don't complain unless you're enthusiastic enough to gather the stats to back it up.

Of course there's probably a reason why the people who could be bothered gathering the stats never end up posting anything...

loroku

PooShoes wrote:

So then the question is, if the AI is being hindered on one front (not matching 5) how does the programming compensate in order to level the playing environment? Easy. Better luck on gem drops from outside the play field, meaning the fresh gems that drop into play.

So, there are always conspiracy theories about why the AI "cheats" in these games. This is a great one to add to the list. It's also the easiest to disprove, since the game would have to be making tons of calculations about what is good for the AI but still bad for the player, anticipating all possible matches far in advance - it couldn't possibly work out in the AI's favor often enough to even warrant the code.

The truth is obvious and much simpler: confirmation bias (as already mentioned in this thread).

The other truth, though, to be fair to the conspiracy theorists: people have always had a tendency to want to make sense of what is random. This could broaden into a philosophical or religious discussion, but it's part of our very nature, and how we first made sense of the world around us long ago. So it really doesn't matter how many times logical fallacies are brought up, people will believe that the random number generator is stacked against them because it's in our DNA. It's a sisyphean effort, but I suppose we can always hope.

Unknown

Build decks that couldn't care less what the AI gets.

The AI could fill his entire hand all the time with mana and as long as my core is out he still loses.

My complaint is about the times when there is only pw mana matches and the AI is getting the cascades.

PW matches suck (they were the same way in MPQ too, lol allied matches were so completely and utterly useless). At least in this game they are actually useful, and sometimes worth purposefully matching. However typically you need a board presence first.

My suggestion about having pw matches grant 1 normal mana was unheeded.

Meto5000

pandabear wrote:

PW matches suck (they were the same way in MPQ too, lol allied matches were so completely and utterly useless). At least in this game they are actually useful, and sometimes worth purposefully matching. However typically you need a board presence first.

Step 1: Cast Relic Seeker, Woracle or Consul's Lieutenant
Step 2: Give them Vigilance
Step 3: Collect 50 runes

Tiburon

I agree, starting a match is a 2 way street. The playing field is always weighted to the AI's favor, usually containing only a few of your colors. However I do notice you generally always have a decently good 4 or 5 match right off the rip (even if it is a mini cascade).

I'm good with all that seems fair enough.

But I agree with the OP, the AI gets soooooooooooooo many cheezy cascades, I agree and admit I get cascades as well. But usually on-board already, planned cascades. The AI however, will drop 3, and then be graced magically with 2 other 3 matching matches in the same row. (As if 9 gems were perfectly stacked by 3s.)
This happens with god awfully apparent frequency, it's almost a joke. I can only assume its to help the AI be more competitive.

A small exploit/trick to mess with the AI is stack planeswalkers gems with a 4 match waiting to be made and they will take it every time. You can force the AI to do several no mana matches if you get lucky. Or inversely (and more likely) you may trigger the above effect and watch them make a row wipe turn into a 5 minute cascade fest.

Unknown

So you guys think that the ai does get more matches from tiles dropping newly into the board after matching tiles and now assume the ai cheats?

We already mentioned confirmation bias. But even if the ai does get more random matches, that doesn't automatically mean, the ai is cheating. I guess it's just better in seeing potential good chances for follow-up matches. Depending on the position and surroundings,the new tiles have quite different chances to get another match.

Lets just do the math for the best and worst case scenario:

Worst case

X. X. X l
l
l
X=Space where the new tiles will land after dropping, l= right side of the board

Only chances to get a 3 match are
The left and middle new tiles are blue, 1/36
All new tiles have the same color, but not blue, 5/216
Total chance to get a 3match 5,48%

Best case

X
X
X



Chances to get a 3 match are
Top new tile is red or green 1/3
Same for middle new tile 1/3
Bottom new tile is red,green or yellow 1/2
All new tiles have the same color but not red, green or yellow 3/216
Total chance to get at least one 3 match 78,09%

So when 3 new tiles drop after you did your matching, the chances to get at least one 3 match including this new tiles, are between about 5,5% to 78% depending on the situation.

Unknown

This is ridiculous; the AI is not cheating. My observation has been that the board starts equally in my favor compared to the AI. In fact, I'm surprised at some of the starting-boards it gives me when I can see a built-in cascade just waiting for me to pull that one gem. There is such an advantage to going first anyhow that I wonder how they could fairly implement true PvP.

raidan

kore wrote:

This is ridiculous; the AI is not cheating. My observation has been that the board starts equally in my favor compared to the AI. In fact, I'm surprised at some of the starting-boards it gives me when I can see a built-in cascade just waiting for me to pull that one gem. There is such an advantage to going first anyhow that I wonder how they could fairly implement true PvP.

I agree. The board is very random, but often it offers a very powerful advantage to going first. Also for every mega cascade that the enemy has gotten, I have also gotten my own at some point.

It will be very hard to implement a fair PvP with the big advantage of going first. They would probably have give the player who goes second an additional card and perhaps some bonus mana to compensate.

Unknown

having played for a few days now after the update, i agree that the AI is now getting a lot of chessy combos.
i assume this is to make players lose more and use up their potions.

working out what combos can be had from whats on the screen is fine, but the AI is getting mega combos from off-screen.

Unknown

Cascades seem to be more prevalent in general.

It could be I got better at the game, but playin mpq for years and this game I highly doubt it.

EDUSAN

The IA got an improvement in this patch, the things ive seen is that they automatically use the 1st skill everytime, i've seen PW using their 2nd skill a lot more often

and in the case of chandra, i've seen her killing my creatures with her skill/spells, prior to the patch all those things were going to my PW no mattter what

i havent seen changes in matches though

the IA still goes for a row/column clear instead of going for L or T shape to get an extra turn

Unknown

I think that the ai s matchmaking even got worse.

Before 1.31 it would often do a 4 match with a possible 5 match. Now I have seen it twice doing a 3 match while there sits a 5 match on the other side on the board.

Also it now sometimes ignores my supports when it could destroy them for no reason that I can see.

Morphis

I think the ai getting more cascades could actually be part of an "unfair and simple" way to script the ai.

In fact one of the easiest way to do it is by choosing the best outcome e out of all the possible moves.
While for a human doing such a thing would result too tedious keep in mind the huge amount of calculation a cpu can do in just one second.
What is unfair is if(and I think this could be the case) it take the final result in account for deciding the next move COUNTING ALSO cascades that it will get from new gems falling down in the game.

This reminds me of magic duel of planeswalker where the ai was scripted taking in account effect that could trigger from cards in opponent hand/deck as a result of a move.
There was an encounter that ai made you discard cards each turn. I had a card that if discarded would come in play ibstead(for free).
Guess what? Ai did not play anything the whole game because it knew(and the encounter deck was made only of discard cards and reanimate cards.

I am not against this way to script AI, just do not use information the opponent should not have to choose the optimal move.

Unknown

Morphis wrote:

I think the ai getting more cascades could actually be part of an "unfair and simple" way to script the ai.

In fact one of the easiest way to do it is by choosing the best outcome e out of all the possible moves.
While for a human doing such a thing would result too tedious keep in mind the huge amount of calculation a cpu can do in just one second.
What is unfair is if(and I think this could be the case) it take the final result in account for deciding the next move COUNTING ALSO cascades that it will get from new gems falling down in the game.

This reminds me of magic duel of planeswalker where the ai was scripted taking in account effect that could trigger from cards in opponent hand/deck as a result of a move.
There was an encounter that ai made you discard cards each turn. I had a card that if discarded would come in play ibstead(for free).
Guess what? Ai did not play anything the whole game because it knew(and the encounter deck was made only of discard cards and reanimate cards.

I am not against this way to script AI, just do not use information the opponent should not have to choose the optimal move.

I don't think it's unfair to script the ai like this. Looking for possible cascades is part of the game. If you choose your match without taking into account where you have the best chance to get a follow-up match then you aren't playing efficient. That's your choice and fine. But don't blame the ai for doing it.

It doesn't take long either. our brains are quite fast too. Just look if there is at least sitting a pair of tiles of the same color waiting for a new third to drop. You don't have to know any chances. But the more pairs are waiting near the new dropping tiles the better the chances are. Takes about half a second to check this.

And I think it would be great if ai knows my deck and tries to fit it's strategy to it. The best would be of cause when it learns about my deck when I play the cards. But I think that's just an unrealistic thing to ask for

Unknown

Just FYI people aren't complaining about the AI setting up cascades.

People are talking about the (seeming) **** where like a 3 row hole will constantly refill with new 3 row matches and/or a vertical hole will always match every single possible cascade.

As in, the AI isn't playing smarter, it is just getting luckier.

Morphis

Nerimos wrote:

Morphis wrote:

I think the ai getting more cascades could actually be part of an "unfair and simple" way to script the ai.

In fact one of the easiest way to do it is by choosing the best outcome e out of all the possible moves.
While for a human doing such a thing would result too tedious keep in mind the huge amount of calculation a cpu can do in just one second.
What is unfair is if(and I think this could be the case) it take the final result in account for deciding the next move COUNTING ALSO cascades that it will get from new gems falling down in the game.

This reminds me of magic duel of planeswalker where the ai was scripted taking in account effect that could trigger from cards in opponent hand/deck as a result of a move.
There was an encounter that ai made you discard cards each turn. I had a card that if discarded would come in play ibstead(for free).
Guess what? Ai did not play anything the whole game because it knew(and the encounter deck was made only of discard cards and reanimate cards.

I am not against this way to script AI, just do not use information the opponent should not have to choose the optimal move.

I don't think it's unfair to script the ai like this. Looking for possible cascades is part of the game. If you choose your match without taking into account where you have the best chance to get a follow-up match then you aren't playing efficient. That's your choice and fine. But don't blame the ai for doing it.

It doesn't take long either. our brains are quite fast too. Just look if there is at least sitting a pair of tiles of the same color waiting for a new third to drop. You don't have to know any chances. But the more pairs are waiting near the new dropping tiles the better the chances are. Takes about half a second to check this.

And I think it would be great if ai knows my deck and tries to fit it's strategy to it. The best would be of cause when it learns about my deck when I play the cards. But I think that's just an unrealistic thing to ask for

There are some point I think you misunderstood here.
First of it all I am not saying it unfair the cup can "think faster" than humans(not going in details here caus ppl will say human brain is faster... Ok so tell me in split second 4251*35123=?) but that it is unfair IF it knows what will be the outcome taking in account new gems that will be added too.

For example take this scenario:
- You have two chances as nissa: gain 5 mana by matching 3 green gems horizontally and cascades into another 3 mana for 8 total mana.
- or get 3 mana with a vertical 3 blacks. The 3 blacks also has a chance of getting a 5 match because of new gems added, but that is 1 in 6 chances(5 colors+pwalker symbol)

I(and anyone else I presume) will go for the 8 mana assuming all other predictable stuff is even between the two options.
But if AI goes for the other solution only if IT WILL result in a cascade then I call it unfair.

Oh and btw by the way you wrote down it looks like you assume I do not take in account chances... Many times if I am nissa I go for non greens cause of better cascades in other colors and many times also for better Chances at cascades looking a the state of the board.


As I stated and repeated here there is not a problem if cpu can take this things in account faster, more reliable, and sometimes better than I can on average. But when AI takes advantage of the fact that it can "predict future" I am not fine with it.
Of course this could all be false it is still pure speculation.
But I know that scripting with the method of "choose best outcome" is much easier to do.
Also when I noticed some odd behavior by ai it always led to "unexpected big cascades". The only thing ai sometimes misses with no apparent reason is 5 matches(making it 4). That could still be result of bad scripting or done sometimes on purpose to make ai feel less "Unfailable"

Unknown

Sorry, sometimes my English isn't as good as I want it to be.

So it happens that I misunderstand what people say and sometimes I have problems
to say precisely what I think.

Also I just can't believe how many people are convinced by this. I'm getting about the same amount of mana and cascades as the ai. Even more because I get more 5 matches. If the ai really would know which colors fall next in which order and would act because of this knowledge it would Do way more weird moves with heavy cascades in my opinion.