Hokay, So...

XandorXerxes

Devs gave us lots of good news recently. I think they deserve a treat - positive reinforcement, people!

How does no complaining (constructive feedback still allowed) until 2/14 - one week - sound? You guys can then take out all your pent up feelings on poor David and Cthulu, though the latter may remember your posts if he rises. Think we could pull it off?

Orion

Wait, now that the devs are actually listening, you want us to stop giving feedback for a week? Then the devs will think the game is perfect and there's still a good number of tweaks left to go.

jffdougan

I'm in. Try to keep positive tone anyway.

wymtime

The biggest piece of feedback I will give the devs is the no 20 ISO is a great start to helping players get more ISO. The next step I personally would like to is the cost of 4* from level 200-270 have a drop in cost. Right now it is over 240k to bring a 4* from 200-270 and the no ISO will currently only give an extra 80k per month if you are clearing every PVE node 7 times. A drop in the cost of 4* would still allow 2-3* players to level 3* first, but the 4* transition won't take forever.

Raffoon

They finally implement a few simple changes that people have been asking for for an incredibly long amount of time, and we're supposed to suddenly worship them?

The 20 ISO change probably took them 2 hours of coding to implement, and it's been requested for at least a year. It's like ordering a breakfast sandwich at McDonalds, waiting a whole hour for it, and then thanking them for finally giving it to you with the wrong meat on it (because, let's not forget it couldn't just be a straight improvement, they had to add prologue-locking and 0 rewards after completion).

It's great that they made these changes. It took way too long to make them, and they're minor fixes. One good day is not going to erase 2 years of mostly inadequate decisions and support.

XandorXerxes

Orion wrote:

Wait, now that the devs are actually listening, you want us to stop giving feedback for a week? Then the devs will think the game is perfect and there's still a good number of tweaks left to go.

But... I explicitly said constructive feedback was still allowed.

Raffoon wrote:

They finally implement a few simple changes that people have been asking for for an incredibly long amount of time, and we're supposed to suddenly worship them?

The 20 ISO change probably took them 2 hours of coding to implement, and it's been requested for at least a year. It's like ordering a breakfast sandwich at McDonalds, waiting a whole hour for it, and then thanking them for finally giving it to you with the wrong meat on it (because, let's not forget it couldn't just be a straight improvement, they had to add prologue-locking and 0 rewards after completion).

It's great that they made these changes. It took way too long to make them, and they're minor fixes. One good day is not going to erase 2 years of mostly inadequate decisions and support.

Man, did that straw-man really deserve such a beating? I'm not asking anyone to worship anyone. I'm just asking us to think before we post, and instead of saying "aalskdjaslkj these awful devs don't do anything right they hate their players they hate money I hate them RNG SUX" maybe we could instead phrase all posts that would otherwise be 'dev-hating' into "Here is a thing that I think should change / still needs to be looked at. Here is why I think it needs to change / be looked at. Perhaps any of these alternatives would be reasonable?" Some posters try to do that most/every time. Some don't try at all.

It really would make these boards a better place, and hey! Maybe D3 red-names would actually not dread engaging the community.

My question to you would be - if you are going to McDonalds, your food is taking an hour, and they're giving you the wrong meat... why the hell are you eating at McDonalds?

fight4thedream

While I appreciate the sentiments of the OP, I think in light of the recent changes in regards to the elimination of 20 Iso and the 25CP rewards change it's time we as a community reflect on how we present ourselves and our feedback to D3 Go! and Demiurge. Yes, communication has been a sore spot here on the forum for the past few months and yes it would be great if we had someone on the development team poke in every now and then to help shed some clarity on questions we have regarding changes to the game and design decisions. However, let's be honest with ourselves: the forum is not the most welcoming place for the devs. Don't get me wrong, there are legitimate issues and problems with the game; my point is that the manner in which we present and pursue those issues can at times be rather hostile or downright nasty. As things are currently, we have to rely on the community video for direct feedback from the development team and our go to guy Hi-Fi for passing along our questions and getting our answers. If we truly want the devs to interact more actively with forum community, it behooves us to engage them in a civil and diplomatic manner.

First, I want to thank Hi-Fi for all that he does for us. I know a few of us have been quite critical of him because of the position he holds as community manager, and not without good reason, but he is on our side; there is only so much the dude can do and almost always when there is a delay or problem with information being provided to us it's not because of him. He is the messenger, not the game maker, but he also represents the voice of this community. For those that don't know, he submits reports weekly to the development team in regards to feedback posted here. The recent changes to Iso and PvP rewards are a direct result of this. I know there are times he also goes off the radar for a bit but please keep in mind two things: 1. the "community" does not stop at the forum (we are in fact a minority of the player base) and 2. that he is involved in a lot more than his job title implies.

I guess what I am trying to say is "Don't shoot the messenger." If you have concerns with the game or think there are areas in which it can improve, by all means post them or if it's something you feel more comfortable discussing in private PM Hi-Fi or one of the devs (I do believe they still check and answer PMs). But keep in mind, his job includes a lot more than just checking the forums and that any concerns you have he has to cross-check with the development team which means waiting for a response from them. It also means hounding him with the same questions over and over again will accomplish you nothing except exasperation for both yourself and the rest of the community. My advice is once you post a complaint or inquiry to give it a week. I know for some people that seems like an eternity but you have to understand a lot of the questions Hi-Fi receives are not things he can comment on immediately either due to confidentiality policies or simply because it's a question better answered by a person on the development team. If you feel your question or concern has been either missed or forgotten, then PM him and mention your post about the issue. (Yes, sometimes he forgets things. He is human after all lol)

This is not to excuse the lack of information and poor communication in regards to issues like the new Championing system; you have every right to complain and criticize. It's just I think we could go about it in a better way and of course the reds will have to meet us halfway. For starters, keeping the monthly sneak peek updated in a timely manner (although in Hi-Fi's defense he was sick last month and Cthulhu was still learning the ropes). Furthermore, keeping the community video focused on upcoming changes, community's concerns and even shedding light on some design decisions if possible. It would be really awesome if every now and then a dev dropped by to drop some knowledge on us but for now if they continue addressing our concerns with actual in-game changes I suppose that will suffice.

In short, picking our battles and going about it in a diplomatic rather than hostile way will serve to make for a better discussion of the issues that come along playing this game. Talk about your frustrations with the 5* lottery and why it devalues the end game experience; but try to avoid hurling insults at the devs. If there is a bug, report it as best you can or talk about how it negatively effects your gaming experience; but asking if there is proper testing and insinuating there isn't accomplishes nothing except a toxic environment. And yes, be patient. Because a lot the issues and changes we ask for take time to implement.

So while I appreciate the OP's sentiments, I hope we as a community can do better than just settle for a week of no complaints. There is nothing wrong with holding the devs accountable for their decisions but do so in a way that invites discussion from both your peers and hopefully a red name, too. That's my , take it or leave it folks.

tl;dr: Fight thinks there are better ways to address problems with the game than simply "gnashing of teeth, yanking of hair and shaking of fists in the air". Hopefully you take a moment to think of one＿〆ヾ(￣(エ)￣

Vhailorx

I have to say that I kind of disagree with the underlying,premise of this thread.

Yes, the devs have made some mostly positive changes of late, and that is good. We as a community should make clear to the devs that we like the changes (and I think we have basically done that since the tone around her has been decidedly positive this weekend).

But that doesn't mean that the game is now perfect, that the community should not offer feedback, or that it is now somehow wrong to criticize something in the game.

At the same time, it's never a good idea to be mean or rude to the devs (or other players). I have always supported polite and constructive, if strong, criticism when necessary (and maybe the occasional light-hearted bit of snark when I can't help myself!). So I don't want to come off as supportive of ad hominem attacks on the devs, or useless criticism like "the devs are so stupid. This sucks!" But if there is a problem with the game, the only power we have as consumers is to offer feedback/critique/criticism, or adjust our play habits. I don't see any reason to forswear one of those tools because the devs have made some positive changes.

Also, while ibthink everything about the game tends to be better when there is maximum collaboration Between devs and players, to the extent that their are "sides" on the forum, anyone with a red name is most decidedly not on the player side. They work for the studio and the studio's bottom-line interest is more or less to take the maximum possible amount of money from the player base. That's not to say the devs are mean or bad or don't also want players to have fun; just recognising the reality of the circumstances.

GurlBYE

That's a horrible thought.

I'd say changes have less to do with feedback and more with things that need to be changed due to hard numbers.

Now's about the time some of the 4 star players who invested a ton of money into the game should be either getting the bang for their buck or not. (in regards to rng 5 star tier)


Some of you concern yourselves too much with the tone of requests

It's fine to appreciate the game, but if YOURE satisfied, you need to learn to let other people have their varying levels of satisfaction.
Theres plenty more positive changes that can be made and nothing should stop that feedback whether its written with smilies and kisses or laced with censored profanities.
Positive changes but there's still plenty to do.

XandorXerxes

Vhailorx wrote:

I have to say that I kind of disagree with the underlying,premise of this thread.

But that doesn't mean that the game is now perfect, that the community should not offer feedback, or that it is now somehow wrong to criticize something in the game.

At the same time, it's never a good idea to be mean or rude to the devs (or other players). I have always supported polite and constructive, if strong, criticism when necessary (and maybe the occasional light-hearted bit of snark when I can't help myself!). So I don't want to come off as supportive of ad hominem attacks on the devs, or useless criticism like "the devs are so stupid. This sucks!" But if there is a problem with the game, the only power we have as consumers is to offer feedback/critique/criticism, or adjust our play habits. I don't see any reason to forswear one of those tools because the devs have made some positive changes.

Guys. Gals. Really. I'm not telling you to stop criticism. It's in my first post. Fight4TheDream essentially wrote what I did in a much more verbose and eloquent fashion. Think of it as a forum challenge. For 1 week see if you can go without raging at the devs, offering only constructive criticism. Heck, maybe we make the "worst moment of the day" thread a venting thread that's exempt.

GurlBYE wrote:

That's a horrible thought.

Theres plenty more positive changes that can be made and nothing should stop that feedback whether its written with smilies and kisses or laced with censored profanities.
Positive changes but there's still plenty to do.

I disagree to the strongest possible level. Smilies and kisses certainly aren't required (and may be a little creepy), but if everything you did was met with as much vitriol as these forums generate on a daily basis would you bother listening and responding? Or would you just ignore everyone and see what changes cause the cash to roll in? If you treat people better, say, like actual people - they will respond better as well. If you treat them how we've been treating them, they're much more likely to tune you/us out. Which, surprise! That's exactly what happened - we treated the red names terribly, and now they're pretty much gone. Amazing how that works.

Linkster79

I will give as much positivity as I have ever received in all my working life.

Good job, now get cracking on the next one.

Sorry but if you want someone to hold your hand then go ask your mother, you want to wear the adult trousers you have to pick yourself up.

Dragon_Nexus

Linkster79 wrote:

I will give as much positivity as I have ever received in all my working life.

Good job, now get cracking on the next one.

Yeah and doesn't it feel horrible being undervalued and under appreciated? Wouldn't it be nice if you did some hard work and actually got some recognition and gratitude for it for once?

Nah, much better to spread the misery.

TLCstormz

I would be really interested in hearing what everyone here does for a living.

Good teachers are pooped upon by bratty teenagers and their oblivious parents. Good cops are lumped in with the bad ones and spat upon. Good nurses work their fingers to the bones only to be looked down upon by doctors and uppity patients. Good servers are yelled at because fat people are hungry. MOST JOBS are "thankless jobs", anyways.

"Complaining" about other people "complaining" about the numerous and long standing flaws that they feel are present in a game TO it's developers on the open forum that they made FOR FEEDBACK is just.........I won't even say.

But anyways, such is life. And y'all have to get over it. I can think of AT LEAST fifty other things and causes that you all should have bleeding hearts for, other than the makers of a video game app. Go out and volunteer with a homeless organization or a battered women's and children's shelter, or something. THAT would at least make a difference in the world. Yeesh.

Raffoon

I've tried all approaches, myself. I've tried offering constructive feedback/solutions, and I've tried raging at them. I've done plenty of both over the course of two years, and a bunch of things in between.

It doesn't matter which approach is taken, the outcome is the same. They fix a few small things after a very long time, and just continue doing whatever they feel like. The only change that's happened is that shortly after the Thor/Xforce nerfs, they stopped communicating as much.

(Oh, and also, if you do try to post constructive feedback nowadays, it gets moved over to a different sub-forum with 1/10th the viewership/posts)

Vhailorx

Guys. Gals. Really. I'm not telling you to stop criticism. It's in my first post. Fight4TheDream essentially wrote what I did in a much more verbose and eloquent fashion. Think of it as a forum challenge. For 1 week see if you can go without raging at the devs, offering only constructive criticism. Heck, maybe we make the "worst moment of the day" thread a venting thread that's exempt.

I still disagree with both possible interpretations of your request.

To the extent that you want the community to be extra nice to the devs in gratitude to recent changes, I say no. We should express satisfaction to the devs with positive changes, and continue to point out problems with the game that still exist (and there are still a lot of those).

To the extent that you want people to challenge people to stop raging at the devs for a week, I say no. People shouldn't ever rage at the devs (or each) because doing so is pointless and arguably counterproductive.

Linkster79

Dragon_Nexus wrote:

Linkster79 wrote:

I will give as much positivity as I have ever received in all my working life.

Good job, now get cracking on the next one.

Yeah and doesn't it feel horrible being undervalued and under appreciated? Wouldn't it be nice if you did some hard work and actually got some recognition and gratitude for it for once?

Nah, much better to spread the misery.

My reward for working hard is getting paid at the end of every month, my recognition is that I keep my job during the tough times when others who don't work as hard lose theirs. I mess up in my job and you better believe I will be told about it in no uncertain terms. I grew up in an age when we didn't have to wrap everything in cotton wool. We didn't have "safe zones" at school, we got hit we got up and kept moving forwards. I live in the real world, a world where positive reinforcement for every little thing you do does not exist. By nature I am not a namby pamby who needs to be molly coddled, and apart from my children I do not molly coddle others. I am blunt to the point and brutally honest, I do not apologise for who I am and folk can take it or leave it.

So I repeat, yeah the developers did good, now get cracking on the next improvement.

GurlBYE

XandorXerxes wrote:

I disagree to the strongest possible level. Smilies and kisses certainly aren't required (and may be a little creepy), but if everything you did was met with as much vitriol as these forums generate on a daily basis would you bother listening and responding? Or would you just ignore everyone and see what changes cause the cash to roll in? If you treat people better, say, like actual people - they will respond better as well. If you treat them how we've been treating them, they're much more likely to tune you/us out. Which, surprise! That's exactly what happened - we treated the red names terribly, and now they're pretty much gone. Amazing how that works.

Do you know what happens when people calmly make suggestions (like no more 20 iso) and they are ignored for years?

They get angry.

Don't put examples in a bubble. it's not how life works.

People have been suggesting everything they are doing for EVER now.

IRONMAN 40? with 5 stars around? and two of his powers still drain colors?
Quicksilver still being bad?

They are making QOL changes because they need to get new people into the game to get more revenue.
The players who play this game openly admit to not recommending it to people.

They were treated like people. The players weren't happy with a lack of communication
Look at the anniversary, the anger didn't come from people just being angry to be angry. People were excited and built up, so that they could drop a broken event and then walk away.

They didn't communicate and after enough time well vested players up and took their dollars elsewhere.

There are as many 'pleasant' posts as negative ones, the pleasant ones are usually the ones you don't comment on, it's a confirmation bias.
Do you actively seek out and comment on positive posts, or better yet positive posters? Ones who contribute feedback in a neutral way?

Downright disgusting posts (with insult etc) are actually fairly rare and stick out and usually have other immediately calling them out.

GurlBYE

Linkster79 wrote:

Dragon_Nexus wrote:

Linkster79 wrote:

I will give as much positivity as I have ever received in all my working life.

Good job, now get cracking on the next one.

Yeah and doesn't it feel horrible being undervalued and under appreciated? Wouldn't it be nice if you did some hard work and actually got some recognition and gratitude for it for once?

Nah, much better to spread the misery.

My reward for working hard is getting paid at the end of every month, my recognition is that I keep my job during the tough times when others who don't work as hard lose theirs. I mess up in my job and you better believe I will be told about it in no uncertain terms. I grew up in an age when we didn't have to wrap everything in cotton wool. We didn't have "safe zones" at school, we got hit we got up and kept moving forwards. I live in the real world, a world where positive reinforcement for every little thing you do does not exist. By nature I am not a namby pamby who needs to be molly coddled, and apart from my children I do not molly coddle others. I am blunt to the point and brutally honest, I do not apologise for who I am and folk can take it or leave it.

So I repeat, yeah the developers did good, now get cracking on the next improvement.

Nothing you said in anyway really responded to his post, in a way, it sounds like you are being more as you put it' namby pamby' (???) than he is, because you misdirected and complained about your hard upbringing instead of answering his question.

Just playing devils advocate for a very tired set of excuses I see every-time someone wants change in the world. "well i didn't grow up that way"

What a fascinating way to live. I try so hard to understand that line of thinking but it really takes me nowhere, and I often feel why take my time to learn to adapt to a set of ideals that are by definition resisting adapting to others.

Mawtful

I've denigrated the devs work for quite some time. Just openly said some pretty mean stuff about them right here on the forums. So here's my hot take:

People asked really nicely re: 20 ISO, underpowered characters, CP replacing LTs, etc. and at best - at best - the response they got was "we know that's an issue". I mean, that's not even really an answer, is it? An outright "no" would have at least closed the door on that issue an, I would hope, people wouldn't have started drafting petitions to address the 'issue'. An outright "no" probably would have driven away a bunch of players as well, but I don't think I'm wrong in saying that most of their decisions have driven away players and that hasn't really been a concern before.

So people moaned and complained, for more than a year in some cases, and still nothing got done. Then suddenly, a number of issues are resolved within a week or two. No indication, no discussion, just done.

In a way, it's almost a textbook application of "squeaky wheel gets the grease". If there's a lesson to be learned from all these changes it's "complain long enough, and sooner or later the devs will address your concern".

For me, the 20 ISO issues was never really a big deal. I've probably got a 4 million ISO deficit, so the difference between 20 ISO and 100 ISO is so mind numbingly small that it really doesn't matter. It's kinda cool that they changed it; it's not really what I would have picked, but it's a thing - at least they're trying something different.
It's almost the same story for the character updates. It's really cool that they're doing them; I would have approached changes to both those characters quite differently, but it's still something. It's also far outside of my regular play. I already wasn't using QS and IM (and Vision), and even after the changes, I don't think any of them will make their way into regular rotation for me (IM might, but that means I can't use HB, so it's a bit iffy).
The 25CP to replace LT rewards is probably of the most direct benefit to me, although it comes after a string of changes around LTs, CP, and high level rewards that are all designed to try and combat the same group of problems/complaints in regard to endgame progression (and the need to introduce a new buyable "unbuyable" currency).

So from me: well done, devs - you've done some good things.

For everyone else, I say, let them air their grievances; there's still a lot of work that needs doing and it kinda feels like we're on a roll now.

carrion_pigeons

I don't really have many issues with how the game plays, currently. That's not to say I like the way the game is designed, philosophically, but given that that's never going to change, I think it's pretty close to what it has to be.

Complaining about Iso flow is not going to change anything. The rate of progression is tied directly to the rate of cash flow, and also acting to speed that up without a major overhaul to many characters would result in a uniformly stale metagame. Complaining about prices is equally fruitless. The ludicrous paywall that is endgame competition is apparently a feature rather than a bug.

It's too late to change how 5*s are distributed and everyone is just going to have to learn to live with it (or not) until "tier 6" comes out in a year or two, or at least until there are enough 5* characters that there can be an actual metagame with them. The devs certainly know they screwed it up at this point, but it isn't like there's an easy fix. The Champion system was a really clever way to narrow the gap between 4*s and 5*s, and I expect it to be a pretty smooth transition once they get the bugs worked out.

The only real issue I can think of that seems like an actual fixable thing is MMR. But that's such a huge ridiculous mess that I don't even know what to bother criticizing. I just hate leveling up my characters by one so I can increase the level of opponents I see by two.

Monged4life

This topic was asking to awry from the word go really...