The long-term 5* transition dilemma (TL;DR it's impossible)

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  • cyineedsn
    cyineedsn Posts: 361 Mover and Shaker
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    Linkster79 wrote:
    teknofyl wrote:
    This gets back to the question "What purpose does the 5-star tier serve?"

    Shut-up-and-take-my-money-628.jpg

    Buying cp (for your alliance!?!) with money has to be in the running for the most balance destroying and money grubbing changes ever made in this game
  • Dauthi
    Dauthi Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
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    rkd80 wrote:
    I think the only real failure that D3 has done is to add command points to $$ purchases. If we only had data on who owned 5*, I am confident that days after the CP introduction the 5* covers saw a massive spike and continue to do so today.

    In fact there were two major intervals.

    1) The LT exploit
    2) The CP => $$ feature.

    Otherwise the 5* themselves were fine, they represented the elite of the elite and were really something awe inspiring. They were meant to be super rare and obnoxiously powerful characters that one would eventually stumble into.

    However CPs brought along buyers clubs and that in turn distorted the entire picture. Perhaps D3 did not imagine people getting together and dropping $500 in one swoop, but it happened. Now the game is broken. That was the failure.

    Although failure in our eyes is probably jaw dropping success in the eyes of Demiurge who most likely see no reason to change this broken system that fills their coffers daily. Of course in time they will realize the folly of their ways as the game once again becomes stagnant and whales will want more and more and more, while middle tier players give up and leave. Oops.

    Buyers clubs have definitely segregated the P2P and F2P players. I won't stop my members from attending them, as it is in their best interest, but I don't believe it is bettering the game in any way.

    Buyers Clubs, Swapping, Mercing, all these issues could be solved with one stone. Alliances should be rewarded for dedication and devotion, as per the definition of an actual alliance.
  • I know of at least one F2P player with a maxed (and championed) OML and a very usable SS. It's not impossible, you just need to place well in every PVP and PVE, get as much CP as you can for tokens, and have a horseshoe shoved so far up where the sun don't shine that you can spit nails.
    I don't think you read much beyond the title.

    With new 5* releases it goes from needing you to be really really lucky, to being impossible.

    Could just be that people aren't ready for them yet.

    Sorry, couldn't resist. icon_e_wink.gificon_lol.gif

    DBC
  • firethorne
    firethorne Posts: 1,505 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I know of at least one F2P player with a maxed (and championed) OML and a very usable SS. It's not impossible, you just need to place well in every PVP and PVE, get as much CP as you can for tokens, and have a horseshoe shoved so far up where the sun don't shine that you can spit nails.

    Oh, so it isn't impossible. It is just statistically more likely to get hit by lightning. icon_rolleyes.gif
  • As usual the forum feels top heavy with little mid and low end representation.

    I think some points are valid, but most are WAY overblown.

    How many 3* are there? Like 40 or 50? So this is how I see it...with DDQ they "fixed" 3* progression...once that mechanic was in place, casual players such as myself were finally able to start putting covers against the random hodge-podge of 3* they had. However, over the past 6 months or so, there has grown a "glut" of players struggling to transition to 4*. We were clamoring for help, they kept releasing new 4*, but they were won by people who already had 4* rosters, and even trying to get new 3* got difficult as people with 4* blew up the PvP scores to ridiculous levels, making placement virtually impossible...sure I can beat Fistbuster, but in the time it takes, I'll get punched to death by 4 people and lose 86 points. But I digress, they come out with legendary tokens and 5* at the same time, this is where I think most people got screwed up.

    Yes Legendary tokens get you 5*, but they mostly serve the purpose of helping the 4* transition.

    Top end players immediately leap to "z0mg 5*s!" and since legnedaries were the only way to get them, they imagined that the sole purpose of legendaries was to grow their 5* 'roster'. But there are only FOUR 5*s right now. There is no roster. They are true end game content that are MEANT to take forever to get. They aren't supposed to be the next competitive tier *yet at least*. At introduction, if you recall - IceX even mentioned they would watch the speed people got them to make sure it WASN'T too fast.

    So off the bat, I'm fine with it taking super long (sort of*).

    However dot dot dot

    If you are transitioning the way the game is designed, you most likely have a stable of 2*, a stable of 3*, and before you are working on a 5* 'roster' you have a stable of 4*s at 'some' leveled interval, most likely a couple or few maxed 4s before working on 5s. If that's the case, then you can get a LT a DAY for close to two months, you can EASILY get LTs from the 2*s, most likely you have a large group of 3*s that can be championed, and may even have 4*s...so for all the complaining about "well a new 5* will come out and reduce the %s", fine, get your 5*s now via championing and it won't be an issue.

    I'm casual, I don't own a single maxed 4 (I soft capped at 209, but do have max covered 4s). I do own a healthy number of maxed 3* and 2*s though. I have never earned an LT in PvP or PvE - I said screw PvE a long time ago, its too much of a time sink along wiht DDQ and PvP, and in PvP, anything more than 1000 is a pipe dream. Yet with Championing being a thing, I've gone from only having 1 SS cover due to days played, to having 7 or 8 5* covers...all from just doing a champion a day.

    Tha'ts not bragging - its the opposite, if "I" 'Casual Unreall' can get that many covers from championing (and one LT was bought via points), then I'm POSITIVE that you guys who do get 1300 in PvP and can do 3 runs in each PvE node - and have maxed IMHB or RHulks or JG or Icemans - can shoot FAR BEYOND what I've collected, thus this amounts to nothing more than complaining about not being able to progress at 2* speed, into a 5* 'roster' that frankly doesn't truly exist yet.
    -Unreall

    * - My own asteriks is that while I'm conceptually fine with it being a long duration to get such OP characters, I am very annoyed that I now have 4 slots I have had to clear/buy with HP for characters that not only ruined my scaling (again, I was soft capped at 209, now I have 4 at 255), but won't be of ANY use for much of anything. Someone said I can use them for PvE, but just using their match dmg is as slow as relying on IF's attack tile to wilt someone down.
  • kalex716
    kalex716 Posts: 184
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    However dot dot dot

    If you are transitioning the way the game is designed, you most likely have a stable of 2*, a stable of 3*, and before you are working on a 5* 'roster' you have a stable of 4*s at 'some' leveled interval, most likely a couple or few maxed 4s before working on 5s. If that's the case, then you can get a LT a DAY for close to two months, you can EASILY get LTs from the 2*s, most likely you have a large group of 3*s that can be championed, and may even have 4*s...so for all the complaining about "well a new 5* will come out and reduce the %s", fine, get your 5*s now via championing and it won't be an issue.

    I'm casual, I don't own a single maxed 4 (I soft capped at 209, but do have max covered 4s). I do own a healthy number of maxed 3* and 2*s though. I have never earned an LT in PvP or PvE - I said screw PvE a long time ago, its too much of a time sink along wiht DDQ and PvP, and in PvP, anything more than 1000 is a pipe dream. Yet with Championing being a thing, I've gone from only having 1 SS cover due to days played, to having 7 or 8 5* covers...all from just doing a champion a day.

    Tha'ts not bragging - its the opposite, if "I" 'Casual Unreall' can get that many covers from championing (and one LT was bought via points), then I'm POSITIVE that you guys who do get 1300 in PvP and can do 3 runs in each PvE node - and have maxed IMHB or RHulks or JG or Icemans - can shoot FAR BEYOND what I've collected, thus this amounts to nothing more than complaining about not being able to progress at 2* speed, into a 5* 'roster' that frankly doesn't truly exist yet.
    -Unreall

    * - My own asteriks is that while I'm conceptually fine with it being a long duration to get such OP characters, I am very annoyed that I now have 4 slots I have had to clear/buy with HP for characters that not only ruined my scaling (again, I was soft capped at 209, now I have 4 at 255), but won't be of ANY use for much of anything. Someone said I can use them for PvE, but just using their match dmg is as slow as relying on IF's attack tile to wilt someone down.

    If you get lucky with 5 star pulls, you don't need to transition to 4 star tier. You pulled 6 5 stars out of exactlly how many championed LT's? 15 or 16? You scored big. For every story like yours, someone missed big.

    Variance from LT's is completely in charge of what your experience between 3 star land + is right now. Nothing else matters. It doesn't feel right does it?
  • PeterGibbons316
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    How many 3* are there? Like 40 or 50?

    ...

    Yet with Championing being a thing, I've gone from only having 1 SS cover due to days played, to having 7 or 8 5* covers...all from just doing a champion a day.
    That assumes you have every 3* character maxed (very few do) and also requires some pretty exceptional luck in your pulls. All of my numbers are based on an average pull rate of 10% (as advertised). If you pulled 8 covers from 40 tokens your rate is twice as good as average. For every player like you, there is someone who only pulled two 5* characters from championing all their 3* characters.......and they only get to do that once, there is no catching up. A one-time draw is not a viable solution to this long-term problem.

    Also, I'm not expecting to transition to a 5* roster at 2* speed. I'm not sure where you got that from anything that has been said in here. I was just expecting to have the ability to grow all of my 5* characters just like I can grow my 3* and 4* characters over time. The decision up until now has always been "which character should I level?" Now the real decision is "when do I open all my legendary tokens so that I can earn what is likely going to be the only 3 useful 5* characters I will ever get on my roster?"
  • Malcrof
    Malcrof Posts: 5,971 Chairperson of the Boards
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    5* pulls seem to be spurty.. but the transition is going along well. I have over 1/2 of the 4*s fully covered (but still need millions of iso), so really don't mind getting one i don't need, so i can sell it for 1k iso.. but 5*s, even though i am behind the 10%, they are coming along nicely, and to be honest, faster than they probably should, as i can't put too much iso into them yet.

    OML 2/2/2, SS 4/1/1, PNX 1/2/0, BSSM 1/0/0
  • cyineedsn
    cyineedsn Posts: 361 Mover and Shaker
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    Malcrof wrote:
    5* pulls seem to be spurty.. but the transition is going along well. I have over 1/2 of the 4*s fully covered (but still need millions of iso), so really don't mind getting one i don't need, so i can sell it for 1k iso.. but 5*s, even though i am behind the 10%, they are coming along nicely, and to be honest, faster than they probably should, as i can't put too much iso into them yet.

    OML 2/2/2, SS 4/1/1, PNX 1/2/0, BSSM 1/0/0


    No...please, please don't say it's moving faster than they should. I'm in the same boat as you with lots of 4* fully covered or with 12 covers, and I've managed a 1/1/1 oml and 2/0/0 SS. The 5* rate is just totally random. (Kudos to you on your pulls though)
  • firethorne
    firethorne Posts: 1,505 Chairperson of the Boards
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    cyineedsn wrote:
    Malcrof wrote:
    5* pulls seem to be spurty.. but the transition is going along well. I have over 1/2 of the 4*s fully covered (but still need millions of iso), so really don't mind getting one i don't need, so i can sell it for 1k iso.. but 5*s, even though i am behind the 10%, they are coming along nicely, and to be honest, faster than they probably should, as i can't put too much iso into them yet.

    OML 2/2/2, SS 4/1/1, PNX 1/2/0, BSSM 1/0/0


    No...please, please don't say it's moving faster than they should. I'm in the same boat as you with lots of 4* fully covered or with 12 covers, and I've managed a 1/1/1 oml and 2/0/0 SS. The 5* rate is just totally random. (Kudos to you on your pulls though)

    Yeah, I'm with you. 0/1/1 old man, 0/0/1 Phoenix, 0/1/0 Surfer, no spiders. Random progression sucks.
  • WelcomeDeath
    WelcomeDeath Posts: 349 Mover and Shaker
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    I think the real issue here is the eventual absolution of the 4* tier. Get one or two good ones to get you to 1.3k, and work on getting 5* covers, seems to be the way. 3* are still necessary for pvp purposes (center character each event) and 5* for keeping up at higher levels. Even a month or two ago, I'd hit a wall of 4* on my climb, now it's a wall of 5* in not much time. (Also mirrors the time of cp and buyers groups...go figure) I've only got 1 4* maxed so far, so in transition...bit once I get better coverage on 5*, no reason to level 4* anymore other than for 4* ddq and a shot at more legendaries. Not complaining that I don't have a workable 5* yet (though I could), but was this drastic of a change in the game intended? As an example, does anyone even really care anymore that Nova is coming? Or any other 4*?
  • lokiagentofhotness
    lokiagentofhotness Posts: 192 Tile Toppler
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    I know of at least one F2P player with a maxed (and championed) OML and a very usable SS. It's not impossible, you just need to place well in every PVP and PVE, get as much CP as you can for tokens, and have a horseshoe shoved so far up where the sun don't shine that you can spit nails.
    I don't think you read much beyond the title.

    With new 5* releases it goes from needing you to be really really lucky, to being impossible.
    I guess I should have finished what I was originally going to say. The same player has one other 5* nearly complete, and at least one of each colour for the rest. So yes, it's not likely that the F2P player will ever be competitive again, but it's not impossible.

    is he in an alliance that spends and shares cp around? because that will also be a factor in how many 5stars you have.
  • Raffoon
    Raffoon Posts: 884
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    Tha'ts not bragging - its the opposite, if "I" 'Casual Unreall' can get that many covers from championing (and one LT was bought via points), then I'm POSITIVE that you guys who do get 1300 in PvP and can do 3 runs in each PvE node - and have maxed IMHB or RHulks or JG or Icemans - can shoot FAR BEYOND what I've collected, thus this amounts to nothing more than complaining about not being able to progress at 2* speed, into a 5* 'roster' that frankly doesn't truly exist yet.
    -Unreall

    That's great for you. I'm one of those players that hits 1300 in every PVP, has opened more than 100 tokens, and has drawn half as many 5*s as you have.

    Some people CAN progress in the current system. Some people DO.

    The problem is that many people DON'T progress in the current system, despite putting in huge amounts of effort, simply because of chance.

    The system is broken.
  • Matthew G
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    As a player of less than a year (currently around day 260) and currently in the 3*/4* transition with most of my 3*s max covered but not max leveled and fairly quickly growing my 4* roster, I find the rate at which I'm collecting 5*s to be fairly reasonable.

    I have earned almost every single PvE progression LT, a few DDQ4* LTs (I would say around 5), around 10 LTs from CP, 1 LT from a DDQ Vault, and 11 LTs from championing. This has resulted in me only getting a 0/1/2 SS and no covers for any other 5* which is WAY below the 10% mark which sucks but I can only be so upset by it.

    I was never around to experience the introduction of the 4*s but I feel like this is similar to that original transition back in the day. Those who were ready to make the transition into 4* territory at their release were able to grow their 4* roster much, much faster than those that were still in the 3* transition. While it was possible to gain a few covers here and there for them either from lucky pulls or from major pushes in events, they wouldn't, couldn't, and shouldn't have been able to keep up with the high tier players. Those saying that they are having a hard time building up their 5* roster while sitting on an under-leveled or soft capped 4* roster are acting like they are ready to be moving into the 5* realm with even relatively moderate speed when compared to whales or top tier players.

    Do I like the idea of only getting 5*s from a chance pull from a token I get probably 2-3 times a week? No. I think there are better ways to prevent or limit whaling 5*s that would be more fair and balanced between players of the same level. (Although we're kind of past the whole no whaling thing because I've seen tons of complete 5* at this point when they were very adamant that it would take months and months and months to finish a 5*) I wish there was implementation that rewarded 4* players consistently without the risk of a 2* player ruining the game for themselves with a lucky pull or a 3* using 20+ LTs without a single 5* but I don't see the 5*s being unobtainable by the F2P player over time. I understand the concern with the statistical increase in pull likelihood that the 5*s will face in the future if the current system continues but I doubt the devs will just go 'WELL, THEY SHOULD HAVE GIVEN US HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS SOONER SO THEY COULD HAVE MAXED 5*s! TOO LATE NOW!' The devs will likely implement a new system to reward progression that gives either a guaranteed specific 5* or a new means of gathering LTs faster when the issue is an actual problem and not a hypothetical problem. (And yes, right now this is a hypothetical problem as neither the new 25 CP tokens or the old 20 CP tokens have a lower draw rate than 3.33% for a particular character and we have AT LEAST another month before we get a full 6 5*s)

    Tl;dr The current system for 5*s isn't the best but the problem(s) mentioned here could and probably will be addressed by the devs when it actually becomes a problem. As it stands, there is no need for an easier means with which to acquire 5*s.

    (Sorry for the length but this is a topic that I'm kind of torn on and wanted to fully explain my thoughts)
  • Raffoon
    Raffoon Posts: 884
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    Matthew G wrote:
    I was never around to experience the introduction of the 4*s but I feel like this is similar to that original transition back in the day. Those who were ready to make the transition into 4* territory at their release were able to grow their 4* roster much, much faster than those that were still in the 3* transition. While it was possible to gain a few covers here and there for them either from lucky pulls or from major pushes in events, they wouldn't, couldn't, and shouldn't have been able to keep up with the high tier players. Those saying that they are having a hard time building up their 5* roster while sitting on an under-leveled or soft capped 4* roster are acting like they are ready to be moving into the 5* realm with even relatively moderate speed when compared to whales or top tier players.

    What about those that are having a hard time building up their 5* roster, but are hitting every PVP progression, every 4* DP, and half the PVEs? Are they ready?

    No one is asking for an easier system to get 5*s, we want a more consistent system. Whether or not you're able to progress and compete shouldn't be determined almost completely by chance.
  • I'm wondering if anyone else is considering buying 5* covers with CP?

    I'm a casual player well into my 4* transition, but dont bother getting the LT in pve, and call it a day in pvp at 1000 points. This means my only consistent source of LT is champions (which will stop eventually) and DPD. I do try pick up the odd CP in pve and pvp. From seeing some stories of hoarded LT pulls, 36 classic LT pulls by no means would guarantee me a needed cover for a 5*. It might take 6-9 months(?) to gather 720 CP from casual daily play, but at least a cover will be guaranteed? And then theres always the chance I'll pull a 5* from the deadpool daily.
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Raffoon wrote:
    What about those that are having a hard time building up their 5* roster, but are hitting every PVP progression, every 4* DP, and half the PVEs? Are they ready?
    Judging by your and my draw rate obviously we're not ready.
    Maybe I need more than 6 championed 4*s and more than 28 championed 3*s?
    Cause the game keeps me in 4* land where I will be drawing Baglord covers for all eternity.
  • PeterGibbons316
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    fickle wrote:
    I'm wondering if anyone else is considering buying 5* covers with CP?
    IMO it would only make sense to do that if you needed a very specific 5* cover to finish off a character. And really not just any character - but one that is only in the classic tokens (currently only SS). If you can still use ANY cover, you are more likely to get it (and 2 other 5* covers that you likely need as well) by using the CP to purchase tokens.
  • Matthew G
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    Matthew G wrote:
    I was never around to experience the introduction of the 4*s but I feel like this is similar to that original transition back in the day. Those who were ready to make the transition into 4* territory at their release were able to grow their 4* roster much, much faster than those that were still in the 3* transition. While it was possible to gain a few covers here and there for them either from lucky pulls or from major pushes in events, they wouldn't, couldn't, and shouldn't have been able to keep up with the high tier players. Those saying that they are having a hard time building up their 5* roster while sitting on an under-leveled or soft capped 4* roster are acting like they are ready to be moving into the 5* realm with even relatively moderate speed when compared to whales or top tier players.


    What about those that are having a hard time building up their 5* roster, but are hitting every PVP progression, every 4* DP, and half the PVEs? Are they ready?

    No one is asking for an easier system to get 5*s, we want a more consistent system. Whether or not you're able to progress and compete shouldn't be determined almost completely by chance.

    I can understand and sympathize with the desire for a more consistent system. One that could in some way guarantee 5* covers. But that isn't the topic of this thread. The issue with the 5*s isn't how hard it is to get specific desired 5* characters imo (or at least not the MOST important issue) as op seems to have a problem with. I think the biggest problem that should be getting attention from the devs is a better distribution system for the 5*s even if it still means a random 5* pull instead of a chosen cover. This may be because I value a cover for SS the same as one for OML, Phoenix, or 5*Spidey.

    I understand that most people would rather have a fully covered 5* than 6 5*s with 2 covers each but the nature of the cover system in place is that you get random covers in each tier (like it is for 2*s and 3*s and 4*s). The only way you could get a consistent 5* would be if they were added to PvE or PvP rewards at an outrageously high progression to maintain rarity. I would prefer the current system over that.