Please, give us a more consistent progression system

Raffoon

There's another game that I like to play. It's called Marvel Future Fight. It's a 3rd person action rpg on tablets/mobile that's a cross between diablo style gameplay, marvel ultimate alliance, or marvel heroes.

In this game, there is a system called "biometrics". It's how you unlock characters, and also make them stronger. Every character can range between 1* to 6* rank. "Ranking up" any character both unlocks new skills and boosts their stats. By collecting somewhere between 600-630 biometrics you can rank up your character enough to get all of the skills for a character. When you have less biometrics, the characters are weaker but still usable to varying degrees. It is very similar to the cover system in MPQ.

The big difference though, between this system and the current cover system in MPQ is that because it takes so many biometrics to rank up a character, the developers are able to give out small bits of meaningful character advancement on a regular basis.

There is a degree of luck that can be involved, and the biometrics you want might not be easily available, but if you want to work on a character, you can make sure to play the missions that give out their biometrics every day. After playing those missions for a week, you'll have absolutely guaranteed progress on the character of your choice.

By comparison, the cover system in MPQ, and by extension, the Legendary Token system change MPQ progression into much larger chunks. If you pull 2 covers for a 5* in MPQ, you've made meaningful progress. If you get 20 biometrics for a character in MFF, you could take a character from 1* to 2*.

But here's the issue with MPQ and the advantage to MFF: Because progression is broken into such large, randomly given chunks, it's entirely possible to go months without making any meaningful progression in MPQ.

Imagine a world where people pulled 10 times as many Legendary Tokens. But now, also imagine that all characters took 130 covers to max instead of 13. By allowing so many pulls, it reduces the impact of random streaks. In such a world, pulling 10 Silver Surfer covers would be equivalent to pulling 1 cover today. But it's less likely that someone would pull 0 Silver Surfer covers out of 1000 tokens than it is that they would pull 0 covers out of 100 tokens.

I think maybe this is what the CP system was partially meant to do. CP allows the developers to put in a reward that allows progression in a small increment. But the issue is that the payoff for CPs is just another token with the same issues as before. No matter how bad your luck, it never makes sense to give up 36 Legendary tokens (720 CP) for 1 5* cover.

This other Marvel game and its progression system just goes to show how successful and rewarding a progression system can be in comparison to MPQ.

It's time that the developers figured out a way that consistent effort be rewarded with consistent progress. Maybe a bar that increases your chance at a 5* and partially fills every time you open a Legendary Token but don't get a 5* would work. Maybe one of the many, many other ideas circulating.

As it stands, the current system is unacceptable and leaves too much to luck. Some luck is fun, but the current system makes it so that some people are completely unable to progress.

Mod Edit: Clarified Thread title, moved to Other Games: General Discussion

OP Edit: Feel free to post suggestions on how you might want to see such a consistent progression system implemented! Here's a list I'd posted in another thread:

-They could make a small vault of around 20 4/5* covers that resets every day. Save up 20 tokens and guarantee yourself 2 5*s!

-They could increase your chance of drawing a 5* every time you don't. 10% would act as a base. Oh, you didn't draw a 5* in your first 10 tokens? Well that's OK, at least the chance at a 5* has been increasing by 2% each time you didn't draw one, so after 10 missed draws you have a 30% chance. Draw 10 more bad draws? Now you're at a 50% chance to draw a 5*. Oh good, you finally drew one! Back to 10% to start again.

-How about spending 150-200 command points for a random 5*?

-Legendary tokens could give no 5*s, but every time you open one you get a 5* point. Get 10 5* points and you can draw a random 5* token.

-You could trade in a certain number of Legendary Tokens for a guaranteed random 5* cover. It would be some number slightly less than 10 Legendary tokens to account for the 9 4* covers you're giving up.

Some of these options could even come with an on/off button for drawing 5*s to help anyone that's not ready to start getting them yet.

scottee

They're never going to change the system until people stop playing. And when people stop playing, that's the end of the game.

Blame it on the human psyche. If you gave people the choice between investing their money at a constant 1% per year or pulling a slot machine handle at a widely varying -3% per pull, they'll overwhelmingly take the slot machine.

They experimented early in the game. 10 packs used to give a guaranteed new character cover. They changed it to give the same expected value, but without the guarantee. The result? They sold more packs.

The truth is, the top end of players hate variability, because at high amounts of effort, you want consistent progress. The vast majority of the playerbase prefers a lot of variability, because with minimal to medium effort, you have the chance to pull a big cover. It same reason pro level TF2 players hate crits, because it adds unnecessary variance. However, that same variance is what builds a big playerbase of noobs, because every once in a while, they blow up a whole hallway of enemies and think, "This game is so fun!"

blinktag

Part of the trouble with variability is that I'm seeing 2* rosers with a very shallow and undrlevelled 3* pool and one or two 5* with multiple covers, effectively skipping progression tiers.

I feel like PvE rewards/scaling should be reworked so that a solid 3* is required to pull the LT each event. Then I wouldn't feel so far behind those tinykitty 2* rosters with a 5* hero. As it stands, I feel like all of my effort building a deep roster and trying to climb the awful 4* transition is for naught if it's possible to just hop over those tiers.

GurlBYE

There's a lot of inconsistencies.

MFF works on a system where you advance who you want when.

You don't check the next 7 day event and see whos up and then have to force yourself to play every 8 hours.

scottee wrote:

They're never going to change the system until people stop playing. And when people stop playing, that's the end of the game.

Blame it on the human psyche. If you gave people the choice between investing their money at a constant 1% per year or pulling a slot machine handle at a widely varying -3% per pull, they'll overwhelmingly take the slot machine.

They experimented early in the game. 10 packs used to give a guaranteed new character cover. They changed it to give the same expected value, but without the guarantee. The result? They sold more packs.

The truth is, the top end of players hate variability, because at high amounts of effort, you want consistent progress. The vast majority of the playerbase prefers a lot of variability, because with minimal to medium effort, you have the chance to pull a big cover. It same reason pro level TF2 players hate crits, because it adds unnecessary variance. However, that same variance is what builds a big playerbase of noobs, because every once in a while, they blow up a whole hallway of enemies and think, "This game is so fun!"

Poor example, and even then there's too much to consider.

1% for someone who has a 100K would be 1000 a year.
Someone who has 50 bucks would get 50 cent a year. Yeah they do both get 100% after 100 years, but in the shorter term which has more of an impact in say 20?

When the person pulling can possibly make a 1000% profit and can afford a -3% loss in what they brought with them, sure the higher chance of the net loss would turn most away but lets not make these examples too lopsided.

People pay in this game because its the only way to progress in a 'consistent' manner.

Receiving covers to fill more characters is really the only satisfaction. Hence the champion feature partially making it so even veterans can feel that bit of thrill and some would even go so far as to rationalize a 10 pack or 40 now as opposed to before.

Neither has to do with at core this game being deisgned differently.
In future fight if I loved loki, I could make loki the best damned character and focus solely on them. Whether I pay, grind or otherwise

In this game i focus on what the game chooses for me or I get nothing. Unless I'm willing to ONLY throw money at my problem.

fight4thedream

Moved back to the General Discussion forum per OP request. Having reviewed the content of the post and the responses, I believe this is a worthwhile issue to be discussed. Once the discussion has concluded, I will return it to the suggestions and feedback forum.

Your friendly neighborhood fight4thedream

Crowl

Some context to the MFF comparisons that people should bear in mind, with those daily chunks of biometrics you can readily take a few characters up to 6* in just two months, outside of whales there is zero chance of that happening in mpq.

Another positive thing about that game is the greater flexibility, you get a free chest each day and usually the biometrics in it can be applied to a class of characters rather than just a specific one, so you are able to choose how you will progress.

Unknown

scottee wrote:

The truth is, the top end of players hate variability, because at high amounts of effort, you want consistent progress. The vast majority of the playerbase prefers a lot of variability, because with minimal to medium effort, you have the chance to pull a big cover.

I agree with this statement, but I also think there's something else to consider. How does one avoid rich-get-richer syndrome if the rewards are not random? Of course we can talk about varying degrees, but I submit that the top-end players hate variability because they want to stay top-end payers, and the small minority of newer players that actually want to put in the time and effort to become a top-end player like a lot of variability because it gives them a chance to make the transition.

You know what's different about MFF and MPQ? Competition. Most of MPQ rewards come in the form of pure placement competition rewards, or indirect competition rewards for progress in an environment where other players can subtract from your progress. Even "PvE" has by far better rewards for placement than progression.

If you want to reduce reward variability, you need to rework the entire rewards structure and add some more non-competitive modes. As much as Vets dislike the idea, there needs to be a way for a noob today to become stronger than the Vets tomorrow (other than mega-whaling).

To put it clearly: I would be fine with non-random (or less random) rewards, but they can't be earned via competition or else a permanent caste system is inevitable.

Unknown

Also MFF biometrics don't have an expiry date, or a limit to how many characters you can have.

The gameplay in MFF is far less compelling (as proved by the fact there is an 'auto-play' function) but the fact that you can actually progress does a lot to level the field in terms of long term appeal.

Malcrof

Grantosium wrote:

Also MFF biometrics don't have an expiry date, or a limit to how many characters you can have.

Unclaimed ones usualy expire in 7 days.

Been playing MFF for a year, have every character rostered, even cho who was released yesterday.. and have 0 6*s... and only ever use 3 chars for everything, so most everyone else is lvl 1-15 and just garbage taking up space.. no roster diversity at all, same 3 chars every day, any time i play.. If i played hardcore , maybe someone else would eventually be useful, but they have nothing to make you care about anything other than your core 3 chars...

so what exactly is the point of adding new people? At least here, there are reasons to level and use different chars.

Unknown

Malcrof wrote:

Grantosium wrote:

Also MFF biometrics don't have an expiry date, or a limit to how many characters you can have.

Unclaimed ones usualy expire in 7 days.

Been playing MFF for a year, have every character rostered, even cho who was released yesterday.. and have 0 6*s... and only ever use 3 chars for everything, so most everyone else is lvl 1-15 and just garbage taking up space.. no roster diversity at all, same 3 chars every day, any time i play.. If i played hardcore , maybe someone else would eventually be useful, but they have nothing to make you care about anything other than your core 3 chars...

so what exactly is the point of adding new people? At least here, there are reasons to level and use different chars.

Unclaimed gifts expire, but claiming the gift just adds the bios to your inventory where they don't expire. Most bios are acquired from missions rather than gifts anyway so not sure where you're coming from on that.

If we're discussing incentives to use other characters we're dangerously close to going off topic, but incentives do exist. In order to keep your team 'fresh' and gain bonus XP and gold you can't use them more than 9 times in a set time period (I think it's a few hours, but they don't disclose it publicly as far as I've seen). Some competitive modes require you to have 5 characters fitting a certain description such as 5 speed type heroes or 5 villains or 5 females, those modes usually have an essential character as well. There are now 12 missions on villain siege mode and you can't use the same character more than once a day in that mode, meaning 36 characters are required to have a team of 3 in each mission.

I have huge respect for you, Malcrof, but either I'm reading you wrong or you're coming across very negative on MFF. I get that it's not a perfect game, there are plenty of weaknesses to pick on, but those are not them.

firethorne

Malcrof wrote:

Grantosium wrote:

Also MFF biometrics don't have an expiry date, or a limit to how many characters you can have.

Unclaimed ones usualy expire in 7 days.

Been playing MFF for a year, have every character rostered, even cho who was released yesterday.. and have 0 6*s... and only ever use 3 chars for everything, so most everyone else is lvl 1-15 and just garbage taking up space.. no roster diversity at all, same 3 chars every day, any time i play.. If i played hardcore , maybe someone else would eventually be useful, but they have nothing to make you care about anything other than your core 3 chars...

so what exactly is the point of adding new people? At least here, there are reasons to level and use different chars.

What's the point? Fun. And why not, in Future Fight, roster slots are free!

Also, at higher level play, there character differences do become important.

And there is a significant difference between things in you inbox expiring and things in your inventory expiring. Inbox is more like the shield resupply, but everyone is on the same day and get the same reward. If you don't play that week, the GM and login rewards will expire, sure. But, the only way you aren't seeing and claiming things is if you don't launch the game. And after you do, there is no pressure of you get bios for a character you want, but don't have room for him, to pay up for a roster slot or let him be lost forever.

It also just feels more generous and allows you to achieve your goals. I've been playing FF since the second anniversary of MPQ, and have everyone (except Cho, added in last update) rostered, and have two maxed 6*s. I've been playing MPQ from yeah one, and feel like I've made nowhere near that progress.

acescracked

I like the OPs effective use of underlines.

Eddiemon

The issue seems to be that you are focused on 5 stars as 'progression'.

You can relatively easily assemble and max one and two star characters. They have added championing to give a more stable progression between 2 and 3 stars, with guaranteed covers being available as you champion your characters. Deadpool dailies will help add some covers to those characters once you have acquired the minimum from your champions. While you amass your stable of 3 stars you will slowly be getting 4 stars through lucky token drops.

Once your 3 star stable is solid you get an immediate influx of legendary tokens when you start championing your 3 stars. Championed 3 stars when boosted should be enough to win you four star covers in PvP. And that's where 'progression' ends.

Yes there are 5 stars around but there isn't a progression path to them as of yet. They are supposed to be lucky finds at this point. New character releases are still 4 stars predominantly to reinforce that point. As the game evolves I expect filling out 4 star characters to become easier and proper progression to 5 stars to be put in place but for now that's not part of progression, it's just luck.

Just like you talk about small visible steps, every cover you add to a champion is a small visible step forward. It not only makes that character a little more powerful it also at times contributes to the development of other characters, either directly through covers or indirectly through CP and tokens.

Malcrof

firethorne wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

Grantosium wrote:

Also MFF biometrics don't have an expiry date, or a limit to how many characters you can have.

Unclaimed ones usualy expire in 7 days.

Been playing MFF for a year, have every character rostered, even cho who was released yesterday.. and have 0 6*s... and only ever use 3 chars for everything, so most everyone else is lvl 1-15 and just garbage taking up space.. no roster diversity at all, same 3 chars every day, any time i play.. If i played hardcore , maybe someone else would eventually be useful, but they have nothing to make you care about anything other than your core 3 chars...

so what exactly is the point of adding new people? At least here, there are reasons to level and use different chars.

What's the point? Fun. And why not, in Future Fight, roster slots are free!

Also, at higher level play, there character differences do become important.

And there is a significant difference between things in you inbox expiring and things in your inventory expiring. Inbox is more like the shield resupply, but everyone is on the same day and get the same reward. If you don't play that week, the GM and login rewards will expire, sure. But, the only way you aren't seeing and claiming things is if you don't launch the game. And after you do, there is no pressure of you get bios for a character you want, but don't have room for him, to pay up for a roster slot or let him be lost forever.

It also just feels more generous and allows you to achieve your goals. I've been playing FF since the second anniversary of MPQ, and have everyone (except Cho, added in last update) rostered, and have two maxed 6*s. I've been playing MPQ from yeah one, and feel like I've made nowhere near that progress.

Agreed, it is fun, but as a casual player, i do very little .. i do my 10 arena matches, and some story modes.. dimension rifts, and occasionally something else.. that takes about an hour or so in a day.. don't think i've switched out my main 3 chars in months.. Maybe i will see all that other stuff if i decided to play it more... but i tend to stick to things that only require 1 hand , since i am usually doing something else as well.. like with MPQ.

Virus_Type_V

acescracked wrote:

I like the OPs effective use of underlines.

I tried clicking on them but the links don't work..!

Raffoon

Virus Type V wrote:

acescracked wrote:

I like the OPs effective use of underlines.

I tried clicking on them but the links don't work..!

When you read it... it's like a link to your brain.

fight4thedream

Moved back to MPQ General Forum and issuing Malcrof a warning and one-day ban for failing to follow proper mod procedure and for harassment of a member. The OP is a comparative analysis of MPQ with MFF and although the conversation swayed into a discussion of MFF game mechanics and then went a bit off topic that does not automatically warrant removal of the entire thread from MPQ General Forum. A simple post asking people to keep the thread on topic would have sufficed. I will also be contacting Hi-Fi about this matter.

Please keep the thread on topic. Thank you.

firethorne

So, to get a bit more on MPQ and less on MFF, I have two questions.

1. What are good ways to make consistent/player guided progression a reality? Perhaps that runs the risk of this being moved to suggestions . And I think we've already seen a number of good ideas in that vein proposed there anyway, like blank tokens that let you pick the cover, or getting what you want from some sort of an in game currency.

And that sort of leads to a question that perhaps can't be answered well by anyone but the devs...

2. Why don't these exist? Or, in the cases where they are, why were they made so prohibitively expensive, to a point where not selecting the random route is an absurd waste (120 to 720 CP per level of skill v a mere 20 for a random pull, for example). What led to deciding to make randomness the core element of progression when developing your design philosophy?

Raffoon

firethorne wrote:

So, to get a bit more on MPQ and less on MFF, I have two questions.

1. What are good ways to make consistent/player guided progression a reality? Perhaps that runs the risk of this being moved to suggestions . And I think we've already seen a number of good ideas in that vein proposed there anyway, like blank tokens that let you pick the cover, or getting what you want from some sort of an in game currency.

And that sort of leads to a question that perhaps can't be answered well by anyone but the devs...

2. Why don't these exist? Or, in the cases where they are, why were they made so prohibitively expensive, to a point where not selecting the random route is an absurd waste (120 to 720 CP per level of skill v a mere 20 for a random pull, for example). What led to deciding to make randomness the core element of progression when developing your design philosophy?

Great questions

For the first question I'll dig up a list of ideas I had and post it in here some time this weekend. It's been busy, so not much time to respond lately.

For the second question, it makes me miss the days when developers would post about their aim for the game multiple times per week. Almost daily! For now, I suppose we just have to sit here and guess, since they seem reluctant to talk to the community any more.


Edit: and by this weekend, I actually meant in 2 minutes.

Unknown

I believe this falls under same topic. I would like to be able to select classic legends vs latest legends when I get a legendary token. This is stupid and yes I'm angry! I don't want the new covers I want to add to my existing. I'm getting really fed up with this.

fight4thedream

firethorne wrote:

So, to get a bit more on MPQ and less on MFF, I have two questions.

1. What are good ways to make consistent/player guided progression a reality? Perhaps that runs the risk of this being moved to suggestions . And I think we've already seen a number of good ideas in that vein proposed there anyway, like blank tokens that let you pick the cover, or getting what you want from some sort of an in game currency.

And that sort of leads to a question that perhaps can't be answered well by anyone but the devs...

2. Why don't these exist? Or, in the cases where they are, why were they made so prohibitively expensive, to a point where not selecting the random route is an absurd waste (120 to 720 CP per level of skill v a mere 20 for a random pull, for example). What led to deciding to make randomness the core element of progression when developing your design philosophy?

As per my agreement with the OP, this thread will eventually be moved to Suggestions and Feedback after the discussion has concluded. In the meantime, feel free to post whatever ideas you have for improving the current progression system without fear of the thread being moved. A real discussion cannot happen if its members hold back their ideas, so speak your mind freely. I just ask that you try to keep it on topic. Thanks!