Why am I not surprised? [Is Blue Too Powerful?]

Unknown

Manthro wrote:

Here's a possible broken combo that needs to be watched:

Soulblade Djinn + talent of the telepath

So... This combo is especially dangerous when combined with jace's ingenuity ability. Because of the rotating mechanics of the 10 card deck, it's possible to infinitely buff your other one or two attackers on the board if you simply continually draw talent of the telepath each time you use talent of the telepath.

Since talent of the telepath automatically charges the drawn card with 6 mana, and the card itself only requires a cost of 4, you can OTK with this simple combo. Add in some other draw spells and/or cheap buffs with upcoming releases, and it will become a definite win condition in the future.

For now, it requires some luck, but i have buffed units 10x with Djinn already on some turns with this silly combo.

Show me another combo from any other colour which is this broken already.

LOL! Throw in a Ringwarden Owl and Jhessian Thief as your 2 other creatures just for giggles and let the good times roll. I wonder if Willbreaker would trigger multiple times, potentially leading to having 6 creatures on one's side. And would the controlled creatures gain the bonuses on the proceeding Soulblade Djinn buffs?

Unknown

kore wrote:

Manthro wrote:

Here's a possible broken combo that needs to be watched:

Soulblade Djinn + talent of the telepath

So... This combo is especially dangerous when combined with jace's ingenuity ability. Because of the rotating mechanics of the 10 card deck, it's possible to infinitely buff your other one or two attackers on the board if you simply continually draw talent of the telepath each time you use talent of the telepath.

Since talent of the telepath automatically charges the drawn card with 6 mana, and the card itself only requires a cost of 4, you can OTK with this simple combo. Add in some other draw spells and/or cheap buffs with upcoming releases, and it will become a definite win condition in the future.

For now, it requires some luck, but i have buffed units 10x with Djinn already on some turns with this silly combo.

Show me another combo from any other colour which is this broken already.

LOL! Throw in a Ringwarden Owl and Jhessian Thief as your 2 other creatures just for giggles and let the good times roll. I wonder if Willbreaker would trigger multiple times, potentially leading to having 6 creatures on one's side. And would the controlled creatures gain the bonuses on the proceeding Soulblade Djinn buffs?

They should get the buffs if you keep casting spells after they switch to your side. As for the other cards you suggested to add in with this broken combo, yes, I've been hoping to pull those cards and add them to my deck just to see how far I can push it. Mizzium meddler is also a near requirement to delay the opponent while you set it up.

Also, the combo works MUCH better if you have talent in hand and then draw another one with ingenuity. It virtually guarantees you will draw a 3rd talent of the telepath with one of those two plays.

EDHdad

I think part of the problem is that the blue computer player is the only one that consistently removes my creatures. When the red computer player has a choice between doing direct damage to my creature and doing direct damage to my face, they always choose the face. Even though this is almost never the correct choice.

In contrast, Jace will bounce my creatures, turn it into a frog, disable it, or once in a while, summon 11 gadzillion thopter tokens.

On the other hand, computer Jace will often sequence his cards very poorly. There have been times when the computer Jace will have 3 creatures to my 0, then cast a Displacement Wave.

Unknown

so they just nerfed the white 3rd tier ability to remove lifelink and give defender ... but blue still has 1st tier ability that gives -6/0 ... even at max white first tier is only a +1/+1 ... and abilities are cool and all but in the end we all know it comes down to math ... speaking of too powerful ... black 1st tier ... destroy 1 card to destroy first and last card of opponent ... means you have to keep a charged spell or unselect a card to keep at the top of your deck at all times ... seriously broken ... I was gonna dump some cash into this game but the update today shows that there is only an interest in setting things up so people get frustrated and spend money ... im just getting tired of this type of marketing gimmick ... whatever happened to making a balanced well designed and complete product? ... nope just gonna sucker you into spending more money

Unknown

Argent666 wrote:

so they just nerfed the white 3rd tier ability to remove lifelink and give defender ... but blue still has 1st tier ability that gives -6/0 ... even at max white first tier is only a +1/+1 ... and abilities are cool and all but in the end we all know it comes down to math ... speaking of too powerful ... black 1st tier ... destroy 1 card to destroy first and last card of opponent ... means you have to keep a charged spell or unselect a card to keep at the top of your deck at all times ... seriously broken ... I was gonna dump some cash into this game but the update today shows that there is only an interest in setting things up so people get frustrated and spend money ... im just getting tired of this type of marketing gimmick ... whatever happened to making a balanced well designed and complete product? ... nope just gonna sucker you into spending more money

Gideons ability is permanent. Jace's is temporary.

madsalad

And... they just completely nerfed Blue bounce. Like, completely removed the teeth from it. Oh, you want to keep a full hand, great, 3 cards in my hand are either completely dead, or not nearly as effective.

tanis3303

Yea, I'm done. It was fun for a bit, but this is just going to be another MPQ cycle all over again.

Clearly OP strategy > Everyone buys it > Release new OP strategy that can only be bought or earned via luck over a massive time commitment > Nerf original OP strategy > Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Pay up or get out suckas!!

EDHdad

After playing with and against the new Jace, I'm liking the changes to the bounce mechanic considerably.

When the changes were announced, nobody mentioned that you would be able to discard at will. This is a huge deal, as it means you can pitch dead cards. A good strategy seems to be to run as much removal as you can, and only splash in a few key creatures (preferably ones which affect the board state).

So, while it's true that a card like Disperse doesn't have the same function as it previously did, it's also true that you don't have to have it in your hand if it's just taking up dead space. The same is true of, say, a green spell which damages fliers, or a red spell which destroys supports. You can put them in your deck, and if you don't need them, you can just pitch them.

Another problem I had with the release notes is that I was under the impression that you wouldn't be allowed to bounce tokens. This was terrifying, as Thopters, Angels and Demons can sometimes get seriously out of hand. I was really glad to find out that you can still bounce tokens.

Before the update, I would use Jace to literally bounce anything. Cast a 1/1 caterpillar? Bounce it. Now, I'm more judicious in the use of bounce. I'll usually wait until something is an actual threat before bouncing it. Maybe if your caterpillar has been reinforced a few times, or if it's being buffed by some supports, then I'll consider bouncing it.

With the ability to discard, Sigiled Starfish, of all cards, is an absolute bomb. Draw 2 cards per turn, discard down to 4 and repeat next turn.

I do think that Jace's first ability is undercosted, at least on the higher levels. If he's going to give a creature -6/-0 until end of turn, he shouldn't be able to do it every single turn. Chandra and Gideon have to pay more for their abilities as they become more powerful. I'm fine with -2/-0 costing 3, but -3/-0 should cost at least 4 and -6/-0 should cost at least 5 or 6.

Unknown

Jaces first ability is by far the best one in the game right now. It is really stupidly good.

Also, jace is still the best planes walker by a mile.

Nothing changed for harbinger, and his mana denial is just as strong as ever.

Claustrophobia is useless, but there are a lot more options for control that still work wonders.

Unknown

EDHdad wrote:

So, while it's true that a card like Disperse doesn't have the same function as it previously did, it's also true that you don't have to have it in your hand if it's just taking up dead space.

To what function are you referring? Bounce mechanics should allow one to bounce a card. I'm not saying it should destroy it AND I'm not saying it should force the player to choose a card to discard (off-turn) to make room for it.

Another problem I had with the release notes is that I was under the impression that you wouldn't be allowed to bounce tokens. This was terrifying, as Thopters, Angels and Demons can sometimes get seriously out of hand. I was really glad to find out that you can still bounce tokens.

They still have the space requirement limitation.

Before the update, I would use Jace to literally bounce anything. Cast a 1/1 caterpillar? Bounce it. Now, I'm more judicious in the use of bounce. I'll usually wait until something is an actual threat before bouncing it. Maybe if your caterpillar has been reinforced a few times, or if it's being buffed by some supports, then I'll consider bouncing it.

One cannot be judicious if there is no choice to bounce because the player's hand is full. The only times a bounce is possible is right after the creature is cast (assuming no mechanic to draw a card) or clearing the player's hand. It's completely niche, now. Understand, yesterday I went right to my bounce deck and played several games; most of the time I couldn't bounce when I wanted. I gave up and built something different, that works, but is not a bounce deck. Then later last night I went back to give it go now that I was getting a handle of some of the new mechanics. But still I found bounce unreliable.

With the ability to discard, Sigiled Starfish, of all cards, is an absolute bomb. Draw 2 cards per turn, discard down to 4 and repeat next turn.

It's abilities like this that make bounce even more circumstantial.

I do think that Jace's first ability is undercosted, at least on the higher levels. If he's going to give a creature -6/-0 until end of turn, he shouldn't be able to do it every single turn. Chandra and Gideon have to pay more for their abilities as they become more powerful. I'm fine with -2/-0 costing 3, but -3/-0 should cost at least 4 and -6/-0 should cost at least 5 or 6.

It's a temporary debuff compared to permanent buffs of Gideon. Scaling its efficacy without scaling its cost just makes it passable when facing higher-level challenges. Sure, low-level opponents won't damage Jace once, but that's where the disparity of level translate to having a weaker PW.

Unknown

Jace got kicked in the nuts with the change to bounce mechanics. I'm not even going to touch him for a while. I see TONS of blue decks on quick battle, and its incredibly easy to play around the bounce mechanics now. 100% win rate vs jace right now.

Unknown

Manthro wrote:

Argent666 wrote:

so they just nerfed the white 3rd tier ability to remove lifelink and give defender ... but blue still has 1st tier ability that gives -6/0 ... even at max white first tier is only a +1/+1 ... and abilities are cool and all but in the end we all know it comes down to math ... speaking of too powerful ... black 1st tier ... destroy 1 card to destroy first and last card of opponent ... means you have to keep a charged spell or unselect a card to keep at the top of your deck at all times ... seriously broken ... I was gonna dump some cash into this game but the update today shows that there is only an interest in setting things up so people get frustrated and spend money ... im just getting tired of this type of marketing gimmick ... whatever happened to making a balanced well designed and complete product? ... nope just gonna sucker you into spending more money

Gideons ability is permanent. Jace's is temporary.

3 loyalty vs 21 loyalty

Unknown

For everyone saying Gideon is permanent, lol.

Here's a question, would u rather have +6/+0 for one turn for 3 mana or +1/+1 perm for 6?

Yea, if you are a rational player you'd realize how infinitely better the first choice is.

Especially as you realize Gideon's whole schtick is to have efficient creatures that block and trade well.

Well guess what, for 24 mana u summoned your 8/10 angel win stick.

Except he just turned it into a 2/10 punching bag for 3 mana. That he gets to cast every single turn. Forever basically. And now your defenders are suiciding against his pump djinn that is so cheap and efficient.

If it wasn't for enshrouding mists Gideon would lose every single matchup against jace no contest. He has no answers to any of Jaces things.

Unknown

To be clear, I think they hit Gideon's abilities too hard. Higher-level PWs should see the efficacy of their abilities increase to match the potency of high-level challenges. This nerf took incentive away from leveling Gideon.

BlackSheep101

+6 and -6 do not have the same value, even if both are temporary, if only because creature power has a floor of zero. (but mainly because +6 wins you games and -6 just buys you time)

Using a 3 loyalty ability every turn will eventually burn Jace out. While he's doing that, you're busy pumping your creatures up permanently. While he's confusing one of your guys, you can pump up the others. It's really not as unbalanced as you're making it out to be.

Unknown

That is completely false.

When u try to pump your creature for the first time you get its power reduced to zero, and then he kills it with any of his creatures.

You're right about the +6 however, but it was an example to illustrate a point.

There is no way that -6 for 3 mana isn't a complete game changer, far more so than a pump that requires u to block with it. Defenders with 0 atk still block and get wrecked

EDHdad

One cannot be judicious if there is no choice to bounce because the player's hand is full.

Their hand can't be full if they just cast the creature. If you hold a fully-charged or mostly fully-charged bounce spell in your hand, you can bounce the creature after they cast it. Or, if you use Jace's Second Ability, you don't even need to hold the spell in your hand, provided the last spell you played was a bounce spell or some other removal like Turn to Frog.

If you can wait until the creature has been reinforced, you can also two-for-one the opponent.

The way I see it, it's like in paper Magic, where the blue player might hold mana open for a counterspell. You don't have to counter every spell, and you don't have to bounce every creature.

Unknown

BlackSheep101 wrote:

+6 and -6 do not have the same value, even if both are temporary, if only because creature power has a floor of zero. (but mainly because +6 wins you games and -6 just buys you time)

Using a 3 loyalty ability every turn will eventually burn Jace out. While he's doing that, you're busy pumping your creatures up permanently. While he's confusing one of your guys, you can pump up the others. It's really not as unbalanced as you're making it out to be.

yea but in the meantime ... locked down by jace's sanctum or claustrophobia and dead before you can get enough loyalty to use 3rd tier ability ... and -6 does not buy you time when against a 1/1 that slowly kills your creature cause it has no attack value but must attack or defend (vigilance or berserk) you cant put a +6 on a creature that is not there ... or its the not being able to cast a creature due to being drained of mana at the end of every turn ... so cant pull anything big enough to stop a 1/1 ...

BlackSheep101

pandabear wrote:

That is completely false.

When u try to pump your creature for the first time you get its power reduced to zero, and then he kills it with any of his creatures.

You're right about the +6 however, but it was an example to illustrate a point.

There is no way that -6 for 3 mana isn't a complete game changer, far more so than a pump that requires u to block with it. Defenders with 0 atk still block and get wrecked

So don't play defenders? There are more colors in the game besides blue and white.

Unknown

Your comment is kind of out of the blue, we were talking about Gideon and how his main strategy is for defenders.

It doesn't even need to be defenders. You can easily make an aggro blue deck with berserker plate as well.

With his extremely efficient creatures and safe support , he can even go helm of the gods start and just completely wipe the board.