Censorship & Propaganda on the Forums

optimus2861

Malcrof wrote:

That's your conspiracy folks.... preservation of the answer to a question asked so many times it is dizzying.

I take issue with this. The question that the player base is begging to be answered is not, "What is the math / probability behind the 20 ISO reward?" That's the question Ice answered. Big whoop.

The question the players want an answer for is, "Why the TINYKITTY are the developers unwilling to change the reward system to 4/4 before 20 ISO?" To my knowledge they have never directly answered this. This drives speculation and cynicism, in particular, that it's a ploy to make you have to buy health packs when you hit a massive 20 ISO streak trying to get the reward you want (especially when the reward is HP or CP).

The closest we ever get to an answer to that question is a half-hearted, "Yeah, we sorta get that it's not your favourite thing, um, we'd kinda maybe like to change it someday, after all these other things we gotta do..." Which serves only to continue to drive the cynicism. Especially when the "other things" turn to be things like "create bugs around attack tiles and order-of-operations processing," or "implement shiny new VICTORY banner."

If the devs would just flat-out answer the question, even if it's a firm, "No. We know you don't like it, but we will not be changing it. Ever," a lot of the boiling-over anger might finally settle down. But they don't. They evade the question like politicians. So the anger continues its slow boil, and the threads keep appearing.

OneLastGambit

I think this needs to be moved to the conspiracy section.

Firstly none of us are important enough for the devs or mods to need to silence or edit us.

Secondly... The question the OP was posting about was answered,not just by ice but other posters, myself included in 3 other threads... Recently. Had the OP used the search function they would have found it and quickly realized why other threads for that quaestion had been moved/merged/locked, instead they were too lazy to look.

This is often the problem, it's far easier to blame mods than accept if they put in 1% efort theyd find the answer to their question

DrStrange-616

OneLastGambit wrote:

I think this needs to be moved to the conspiracy section.

Firstly none of us are important enough for the devs or mods to need to silence or edit us.

Secondly... The question the OP was posting about was answered,not just by ice but other posters, myself included in 3 other threads... Recently. Had the OP used the search function they would have found it and quickly realized why other threads for that quaestion had been moved/merged/locked, instead they were too lazy to look.

This is often the problem, it's far easier to blame mods than accept if they put in 1% efort theyd find the answer to their question

A conspiracy board would be awesome!

Not sure what OP you're referring to: me or the one asking about 20 ISO odds. The odss issue is pretty clear. That wasn't why I posted or the question that so many want answered.

However, yes, silence is an answer. It's basically an Heff Hugh.

GMadMan040

aesthetocyst wrote:

Silence is very much an answer.

This is a typically astute observation. Not every question that is asked will be answered directly. If it is left unsaid, then it is safe to assume that it is exactly the way they want it to be! Now, user end happiness with that choice? Totally different story.

As to the original topic, I can only speak to my personal experience, but I believe that I have always had the opportunity to express myself as freely as I wish, within the confines of the rules of the forum. I have never had a thread locked, a post censored, though I have had a couple of topics moved. And they were moved with good reason as their destination was actually a more sensible place for them to be. I also use the SEARCH feature regularly, to see if maybe someone has ALREADY POSTED something along the lines of what I'm thinking of posting. That way I can see if I can add to that discussion or maybe get some insight. Digging up zombie threads is actually pretty fun anyway, because in a lot of cases they still apply. Which is a whole different kind of sad.

I also recognize that this is NOT a free for all, absolute free speech environment. In order to sign up for using this completely free-of-charge service, that someone out there is paying for, there are some rules to agree to. Rules that, from a social standpoint, are pretty easy going. I'm paraphrasing here, but mostly it just boils down to just 'don't be a whiny jerk'. And even that has room for a lot of leeway.

This is the internet. A place where I do my best to avoid getting emotional about stuff. It usually doesn't end well.

People do still use the forum for actual gameplay guidance and tips, right?

Malcrof

optimus2861 wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

That's your conspiracy folks.... preservation of the answer to a question asked so many times it is dizzying.

I take issue with this. The question that the player base is begging to be answered is not, "What is the math / probability behind the 20 ISO reward?" That's the question Ice answered. Big whoop.

The question the players want an answer for is, "Why the TINYKITTY are the developers unwilling to change the reward system to 4/4 before 20 ISO?" To my knowledge they have never directly answered this. This drives speculation and cynicism, in particular, that it's a ploy to make you have to buy health packs when you hit a massive 20 ISO streak trying to get the reward you want (especially when the reward is HP or CP).

Actually, if you quote my entire sentence, not just the cherry picked portion, you would get to this nugget:

Yes we still have a few active 20 iso threads out there.. and the content was added to one of the biggest ones.. and if the dev's address the other portions of the 20 iso conundrum, that info as well will go into a sticked locked thread for the FAQ

You will see i fully understand there are more parts to the 20 iso issue.. which is why that big thread is still there... lots more to be discussed and answered.. but, at least 1 part of it is answered now, so we can move on other portions of it, like your question.. and i am sure, we would rather have another portion answered, and not he same part answered again. Hopefully this will lead to more answers, and maybe one day, even a change.

Lastly, i did not mean to derail this thread, this is not the 20 iso thread.. there are plenty of those, as i alluded to earlier.. feel free to read through those and voice any concerns there in regards to the 20 iso issues not already answered.

Mawtful

This too shall pass.

Der_Lex

I'm just wondering where everyone who says that this forum's moderation is 'heavy-handed' hangs out, because it really isn't.

DaveR4470

Mawtful wrote:

This too shall pass.

You're supposed to lose!

Heartburn

They also seemed to crack down on complaining specifically against some of the actions/policies the devs put forth. More so now then in the past maybe trying to make the forum more sanitary. i remember on a rant getting a warning when challenge some recent decisions

The following is a warning which has been issued to you by an administrator or moderator of this site.
This is a warning regarding the following post made by you: viewtopic.php?f=7&p=357874#p357874 . Please keep posts on topic and refrain from attacking others, including the devs/D3/Demiurge. Find or create a more appropriate topic to voice your concerns in and please do so in a more diplomatic way.

not a problem just a little sensitive when devs get in the cross hairs and i was being somewhat of an butt. yesterday there was a post about someone complaining about 0.2% draw rate, but today the post vanished into to the deepest darkest depths of the internet never to be found, i can't even get to it from the likes i got from dropping a bane meme. ( it is possible that the post was deleted on the OP's request, but i'm not totally sure one way or the other. it seemed like it was poorly made which may have been also to blame.)

Malcrof

Heartburn wrote:

They also seemed to crack down on complaining specifically against some of the actions/policies the devs put forth. More so now then in the past maybe trying to make the forum more sanitary. i remember on a rant getting a warning when challenge some recent decisions

The following is a warning which has been issued to you by an administrator or moderator of this site.
This is a warning regarding the following post made by you: viewtopic.php?f=7&p=357874#p357874 . Please keep posts on topic and refrain from attacking others, including the devs/D3/Demiurge. Find or create a more appropriate topic to voice your concerns in and please do so in a more diplomatic way.

not a problem just a little sensitive when devs get in the cross hairs and i was being somewhat of an butt. yesterday there was a post about someone complaining about 0.2% draw rate, but today the post vanished into to the deepest darkest depths of the internet never to be found, i can't even get to it from the likes i got from dropping a bane meme. ( it is possible that the post was deleted on the OP's request, but i'm not totally sure one way or the other. it seemed like it was poorly made which may have been also to blame.)

In case people skip reading the forums rules, i will quote one of them here:

6. Treat your fellow users kindly. We will not tolerate any of the following:

a. Trolling, or posting something just to get a rise out of someone.

b. Flaming, or insulting / bashing / harassing another user.

c. Posting offensive material. This includes anything that could be considered racially, religiously, or sexually demeaning or insulting. Posting a link to material of this nature is equally forbidden.

d. Offensive or profane forum user names.

e. Posting threatening material of any kind.

f. Acting like a jerk.

You can find all the Forum rules and regs here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4

Please read them.. now if they were followed to the letter, and modded such, there would be maybe 5 threads in general discussion, so for a thread to be moved out of public view, it would most likely be more than a simple bad pull thread.. having read it.. it violated about 5 of the actual rules, and had very little to do with draw rates.

Also, as stated many times before.. if you have issue with something a mod does to one of your posts.. pm the mod.. if you are unsure, pm a few of them, best chance for a response.

MarvelDestiny

Malcrof wrote:

...If your thread is about something you dislike in the game, and think needs changing.. and you put what you would do instead... guess what .. That's called a suggestion! It will most likely be moved...

Mal,

I disagree with you on this. Most people have a vision for how they would like to see the game improved and posting suggestions alongside deficiencies is natural. I know when I post concerns about the game I usually include ideas for improvement. Yes, I am suggesting a course of action but at the same time I'm hoping to engage in a conversation with fellow forumites on the issue(s). Moving my post to the D3 dungeons where it is unlikely to see the light of day again is a form of censorship.

I understand the drive to organize. I bet most players here are OCD Type A personalities, so to some extent I'm sure we all sympathize with you guys. The monumental Gordian Knot the mods are trying unravel and organize is not something I would want to do in my unpaid spare time and the fact that we players seem hellbent on posting whatever we want willy-nilly must be equally frustrating.

Perhaps in time we forumites will post and surf the topics the way the mods envision but for now the one-stop shop of the General Forum is what we -- the end-users/target audience -- want. Maybe if you explained WHY the mods have picked up this torch it might go a long way towards adjusting how we post. Despite my own OCD tendencies I can't figure it out. Hmmm... What if you went the other way and collapsed all forums into one? Users can search for the topics that interest them and important stuff could either be perma-stickied (like the FAQ) or they could be given their own specialized sub-forums (like Announcements, Guides, Alliances). This may not collapse everything but it would end the need to move most posts. Or you could go with a more Google-like approach and just tack on forum labels as needed (assuming this is possible). This way the thread is discoverable in multiple topics.

The point of this long-winded post is that there are other ways to tackle this problem without throttling free discussion.

XandorXerxes

Rule 6a gets so blatantly ignored I'm surprised it's still a rule. Can we get "trolling" expounded upon? Half the posts in this forum would fall under it as written.

GurlBYE

The amount of moderation on this forum for the level activity is a bit off whack. A thread or two being repeated isn't killing anyone.

Also generally like a quarter of the posts in any given thread are one-liners and people telling other people to stop being unhappy with one thing while being unhappy about something else in another.

There's no interaction between dev team and posters (like say an active community rep). So aside from getting rid of spam bots there isn't much.

Closing and reorganizing the minuscule activity there is here is kinda unneeded.

Malcrof

GurlBYE wrote:

The amount of moderation on this forum for the level activity is a bit off whack. A thread or two being repeated isn't killing anyone.

Also generally like a quarter of the posts in any given thread are one-liners and people telling other people to stop being unhappy with one thing while being unhappy about something else in another.

There's no interaction between dev team and posters (like say an active community rep). So aside from getting rid of spam bots there isn't much.

Closing and reorganizing the minuscule activity there is here is kinda unneeded.

Not going to disagree. Like i said, if we went by the letter of it.. there would almost nothing left.. i was addressing the thread that was moved out of the forum.. yes, it was that bad...

XandorXerxes wrote:

Rule 6a gets so blatantly ignored I'm surprised it's still a rule. Can we get "trolling" expounded upon? Half the posts in this forum would fall under it as written.

Well.. the only ones i tend to consider trolls.. are people creating many thread about the same thing, over and over and over.. or posting the same thing in a bunch of threads..none of which are constructive.. just trying to get attention or up post counts.

or some who are quitting..or upset.. and decide to take it out on everyone else's threads..

unlike many of the reports we get, a snarky/funny reply, or a pun.. is not necessarily a troll post.. unless it is mean spirited and directed at someone.. but those fall under a different category.

MarvelDestiny wrote:

I disagree with you on this. Most people have a vision for how they would like to see the game improved and posting suggestions alongside deficiencies is natural. I know when I post concerns about the game I usually include ideas for improvement. Yes, I am suggesting a course of action but at the same time I'm hoping to engage in a conversation with fellow forumites on the issue(s). Moving my post to the D3 dungeons where it is unlikely to see the light of day again is a form of censorship.

Nothing official..but, things will continue to go to suggestions if someone is suggesting something or giving feedback..but discussions are being had about this issue.. on either a change, or making suggestions and feedback a more interesting place to go...


keep the questions coming.. i know it is a holiday weekend. and a new release pve.. so i may be late getting to them, but will answer what i can as i can.

Thanks.

LXSandman

I'd be interested to see if the total number of posts in the forum have gone done.

I would say that my experience is that these boards have been way less interesting recently, and I tend to come here less often. Not saying that's all on the mod behaviour, but alot of it is.

I don't like merging / moving threads. I tend to think that a board will manage itself mostly (Mods are required in certain situations when things go off the rails). Popular threads will naturally stay around and others will disappear.

But whatever, it's their board - They can manage it however they want. Just means I don't get as involved.

timbopp

Malcrof wrote:

GurlBYE wrote:

MarvelDestiny wrote:

I disagree with you on this. Most people have a vision for how they would like to see the game improved and posting suggestions alongside deficiencies is natural. I know when I post concerns about the game I usually include ideas for improvement. Yes, I am suggesting a course of action but at the same time I'm hoping to engage in a conversation with fellow forumites on the issue(s). Moving my post to the D3 dungeons where it is unlikely to see the light of day again is a form of censorship.

Nothing official..but, things will continue to go to suggestions if someone is suggesting something or giving feedback..but discussions are being had about this issue.. on either a change, or making suggestions and feedback a more interesting place to go...

Thanks.

I can't argue against the logic of 'posted a suggestion - move it to Suggestions' but that said the Suggestions/Feedback thread is not one that I visit or are interested in reading through. I would think that I'm not alone here. I assume is more for the benefit of the Devs.

A suggestion or an idea posted in General is much more likely to be discussed and developed and brainstormed into better ideas, or perhaps a game problem that initiated a suggested fix could be justified by other players in a way that appeases many. Would this be even more beneficial for the Devs? To have greater input from players and more developed feedback than a solitary post in the Suggestions Thread basement?

Furthermore, there's an (appreciated) emphasis on positivity in the forum. Many people do need to vent sometimes, to post a complaint but in the spirit of positivity will also add a suggestion for improvement along with their negative feedback. The suggestion may be good and valid but the initial complaint was the reason for posting in the first place and is the intended focus. It's called 'constructive criticism' but it's still criticism and by moving the thread to Suggestions you take the focus of that criticism.
That may temporarily remove negativity from General but the positivity you then get is false and manufactured and real negativity comes back stronger with this idea of censorship.

Druss

The moving of threads is WAY, WAY over the top "generally"

In "general" Nobody reads the sub-forums - FACT!

Keep moving everything that doesn't have the word "general" in every sentence is ridiculous (generally ... just in case!)

Malcrof

Druss wrote:

In "general" Nobody reads the sub-forums - FACT!

currently character discussion and tips & guides are the only 2 forums with sub-forums. The speculations and concepts sub-forum is fairly lively (and one of the most fun to read), the roster and level help has been very well received (check the first page of posts.. thousands of views) , the statistics and theories sub-forum is a very niche place.. and would have been more popular if created a year ago.. but, it is a work in progress, not a dead zone..but it needs a purpose...call it a work in progress.

For now, as i mentioned earlier.. there are works in progress.

May i ask everyone to head over here : viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36043

and give your input.. it would be appreciated.. and no, since it has to do with the forum, not the game.. it does not belong in suggestions and feedback..lol.

GothicKratos

I'm not going to trip over anyone to get into an argument, and maybe it's a bit pandemic, but there is general a difference between "feedback" and a "discussion".

Example; "I quit" threads are feedback, typically, because they offer thoughts on the game with usually no intent on further responses. A discussion is offering up an idea and going 'what do you think?', not 'this is what I think, bye'. Sometimes they're not that way, but usually the player is venting one final time before saying goodbye forever. He might be trying to invoke a conversation, but it's not with the playerbase, it's with the dev's office.

Example: The ""How did you get screwed today?" thread is not a discussion. It's barely feedback - it's a comment. It was locked because we already have a long running existing thread for venting about the annoyances of MQP. I think that's fair. That thread isn't going to garner meaningful conversation; it's going to garner some meaningless bickering and maybe even an argument.

Example: The "Black Friday Sales?" thread asked a question that was already addressed by an admin two days prior. That thread was probably still on the front page. I think it's fair that got locked with a link to the answer that was given by HiFi. If there was going to be additional information there would either be a follow up post to expound on that reply or an announcement thread.

Sidenote: We do not ever delete posts. We have a subforum we move them to when we feel the need to remove someone's comment (which is honestly super rare). If you ever feel like a comment is unnecessarily removed from a discussion, please feel free to contact me and I will look into it for you.

Keep in mind that I don't disagree that maybe we need to be a little more light handed, or at least more communicative, but I feel like "censorship and propaganda" is quite an embellishment. If I wanted to censor you, would this thread even exist? Would you have an account? It's a silly statement, really.

Final comment: I saw someone mention the "Comics and Memes" thread being in General as an "inconsistency". Where would you have it be other than general discussion? Alliances?

DrStrange-616

As was discussed earlier, or at alluded to, this thread was posted in response to a series of actions by a mod. It was meant as a challenge, to call something out and to force discussion of the issue. The title is a bit over the top, but it was chosen for a reason. I do feel that at least one mod occasionally loses the plot and is blinded sometimes by their homerocity.

You might think it's all silly, but a lot of us don't. Many have left the boards, at least in part, because of it.

In the end, though ... Meh. In the grand scheme of what's wrong with MPQ this is minor. It was posted in reaction to specific series of events that encapsulated a feeling of heavy-handed moderation and skewing the conversation to paint TPTB in a rosier light than they perhaps deserved.