5* Progression - are command points the answer?

Hayek

What command points are: roughly a free LT every month or so if you go after the PvE nodes, etc..
What command points are not: a path to transition to 5*s

Is it better than nothing? yes, thanks for the free LT. Is it exciting? no. The 720 CP for a legendary cover option might as well not exist at the rate CP is dispensed. Unless you have multiple whales in your alliance buying starks often, it will take you more than 2 years to get enough CP to buy a cover. And considering that it gets you almost 29 LTs, giving you 3 times the chances of getting a 5* plus a few useful 4*s, who would ever use this option? Answer: the super whale who spends $15,000.00 to buy a maxed 5* and doesn't have him covered perfectly. For the regular Joe, the CP feature equals a free LT once in a while. For the regular whale in an alliance with other whales, it equals a couple more free LTs every once in a while.

Which brings me to the issue I have with CP - it is not a way to help solid 4* rosters transition to 5*s. The 5* transition is completely luck based. I have a number of complete 4*s, and need roughly 30% of the available 4* covers if I don't count the covers that would give me the wrong build. I opened 17 LTs this morning and got one 5* and 3 4*s I needed. So my 5* rate was 6% and my useful 4* rate was 19%. I'm batting well under the 10% rate for 5*s (4 covers so far).

So I'm at the bottom half of the luck curve. Someone has to be right? Not really - only if the system is luck based, which I was hoping CPs would solve. When I transitioned to 4*s, I worked hard to get the 4* placement rewards from PvE and progression rewards from PvP. It took me many seasons to build a strong 4* roster. Compare it to 5* progression -> I've gotten every LT that was every available as a reward (alliance pvp reward, 1300 progressions, PvE progressions, DDQ...) with the exception of 1 PvE I skipped and 3 off-season PvPs. I have 4 5*s to show for it. My more casual buddy who can only do the 4* DDQ half the time, doesn't go for 1300 progression but does go for his PvE progression has 7, including a very usable 0/4/1 OML. So I have half the 5* progression for twice the effort.

I'm sure that for the people that are batting above average for their 5* pulls, this is a great system and they are loving the game. For me, it's disheartening.

fmftint

Beyond the 3* tier, progression is a myth. There aren't enough ways to win specific 4* covers. 4* progression is luck or $

simonsez

Hayek wrote:

So I have half the 5* progression for twice the effort.

I'm sure that for the people that are batting above average for their 5* pulls, this is a great system and they are loving the game. For me, it's disheartening.

Yep...
viewtopic.php?style=1&f=7&t=35305#p443951

Ludaa

I'm in the same position as you, Hayek. LT's are very disappointing so far and I think they're going to sharply divide the veteran playerbase when it comes to 5*'s. Just scanning the top end alliances I can see they will be prevalent sooner than I would've liked.

Also, don't they create a divide within alliances? At least for top end pvp, once a teammate starts using a well covered 5*, they are no longer helpful to hop off of.

For those who don't get lucky with 5* pulls, do we just get left behind?

firethorne

No. They are better than literally nothing. But they're ultimately a whale bonus and pathway to widen the power gap, not to make it more narrow.

Malcrof

Ahem,

we still have too many threads complaining about how hard the 4* transition is right now..

last year it was the 3*, please wait the requisite amount of time before making threads about the difficulty of the next tier transition..

still about 250 days or so until we need a 5* transition is too hard thread.



/lol

cyineedsn

Malcrof wrote:

Ahem,

we still have too many threads complaining about how hard the 4* transition is right now..

last year it was the 3*, please wait the requisite amount of time before making threads about the difficulty of the next tier transition..

still about 250 days or so until we need a 5* transition is too hard thread.



/lol

It will likely continue until either a) it speeds up, or b) the game adds content that distracts us. Just today I was thinking how in other f2p games I'm playing I'm too busy exploring the brand new fancy events with limited-time rewards that get released every few weeks to worry about bad drop rates. By the time that event gets stale some other brand new event starts and the cycle starts again.

Meanwhile in MPQ, ever since the galactus event, its' been weeks of the Xth run of <insert pve we've played multiple times>, and the XXth run of pvp that we've played repeatedly with the only change being what buffed characters we use. When the only new content is character releases, I think it really shines a spotlight on how little new there is to do from day to day.

slidecage

Malcrof wrote:

Ahem,

we still have too many threads complaining about how hard the 4* transition is right now..

last year it was the 3*, please wait the requisite amount of time before making threads about the difficulty of the next tier transition..

still about 250 days or so until we need a 5* transition is too hard thread.



/lol

oooo i want to start the line about complaing about how bad 6 stars will be. I wonder if they could but do you ever think they would ever make a cover fill more then 1 slot.

like if you bring in a 6 star you would only have one more person on your team

really i see 5 stars being worse then 3 stars though, why cause grab a 100 bucks and you will get at least this many 3 stars. with 5 stars blow a 100 bucks you could end up with 0 while someone else could get 3

really though we would really need to see the number of people playing to see if 5 star will kill the game.

Like
100 whales
100 3 stars
100 2 stars

if those whales keep going and you see a massive amount of 3 and 2 star players quit and just see newbies walk into the game i mean they stand no chance. if you start today and say in 8 months are ready for 4 stars those whales would have so many 5 stars max they will crush you in a second.

simple way to fix the game make rank touraments (where you can only use 2 3 4 or higher

Dragon_Nexus

Malcrof wrote:

Ahem,

we still have too many threads complaining about how hard the 4* transition is right now..

last year it was the 3*, please wait the requisite amount of time before making threads about the difficulty of the next tier transition..

still about 250 days or so until we need a 5* transition is too hard thread.



/lol

I would argue that "We saw this before with 3* progression" is not a good counter argument.
If it's widely acknowledged that we had this problem before, why are we having the same problem again?

GurlBYE

Dragon_Nexus wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

Ahem,

we still have too many threads complaining about how hard the 4* transition is right now..

last year it was the 3*, please wait the requisite amount of time before making threads about the difficulty of the next tier transition..

still about 250 days or so until we need a 5* transition is too hard thread.



/lol

I would argue that "We saw this before with 3* progression" is not a good counter argument.
If it's widely acknowledged that we had this problem before, why are we having the same problem again?

Precisely.

I'm guessing it's players still spending money, so they didn't care so much. But now that the bar of money has been raised so incredibly high, maybe the whales will even start getting pissed.

slidecage

GurlBYE wrote:

Dragon_Nexus wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

Ahem,

we still have too many threads complaining about how hard the 4* transition is right now..

last year it was the 3*, please wait the requisite amount of time before making threads about the difficulty of the next tier transition..

still about 250 days or so until we need a 5* transition is too hard thread.



/lol

I would argue that "We saw this before with 3* progression" is not a good counter argument.
If it's widely acknowledged that we had this problem before, why are we having the same problem again?

Precisely.

I'm guessing it's players still spending money, so they didn't care so much. But now that the bar of money has been raised so incredibly high, maybe the whales will even start getting pissed.

got to remember though with 3 stars you spend Insert cash here you WILL get 3 stars.. Insert cash here you might get lucky and get 5 stars but probally end up with 4 stars... Yea its not that big of a Problem now but wait 2 to 6 months when we have 5 to 9 5 stars. These people will just walk over all

D3 easy way to make cash make each new 5 star just a little bit more powerful then the last so whales just keep on buying. Also pre made any rank super star would be a nice money maker.

mohio

Dragon_Nexus wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

Ahem,

we still have too many threads complaining about how hard the 4* transition is right now..

last year it was the 3*, please wait the requisite amount of time before making threads about the difficulty of the next tier transition..

still about 250 days or so until we need a 5* transition is too hard thread.



/lol

I would argue that "We saw this before with 3* progression" is not a good counter argument.
If it's widely acknowledged that we had this problem before, why are we having the same problem again?

I think Malcrof was being tongue-in-cheek (i.e. sarcastic for those not familiar with the phrase). That said, Dragon_Nexus is totally right, there's no reason for these issues to crop up time and time again. There's no "too early" to complain about something that is an issue for someone, especially when it will sooner or later be an issue for many many more people. Not to mention each of these transitions is fundamentally different than the previous one, creating different problems each time. 3* transition once upon a time was so difficult because of cover dilution. There were too many 3* so they couldn't be awarded in enough volume for people to get any covered enough to be good in a reasonable amount of time. DDQ seems to have mostly solved this issue, or at least made it palatable enough that people aren't complaining about it anymore. 4* transition now has the problem of just a scarcity of covers. You can get a big influx at release, but then you're almost forced to buy covers because the normal reward rotation will leave it taking forever to get those covers "naturally". This transition now relies a heavy amount on legendary (and a smaller amount heroic/event) token luck. You need to open 3 or 4 (or more) covers of a single character in order to get them anywhere near fully covered. 5* transition is even more luck-based since it is literally the only way to get the covers. Sure, you're not supposed to transition quickly, but the RNG factor makes it hard to envision transitioning AT ALL, barring way better than average luck (which statistically some people are sure to have, but obviously not many at all).

edit to add: To the (clearly joking) comment about complaining about the 4* transition when Fury was brand new...4* transition was easy then! Not that hitting those high scores was a walk in the park, but it was definitely doable, and with only 3 4* in the game, you could get at least 1 cover a week for the character you needed. Release events were far more stingy, but you could by far make up for it in the smaller pool meaning more chances at winning covers.

Malcrof

GurlBYE wrote:

Dragon_Nexus wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

Ahem,

we still have too many threads complaining about how hard the 4* transition is right now..

last year it was the 3*, please wait the requisite amount of time before making threads about the difficulty of the next tier transition..

still about 250 days or so until we need a 5* transition is too hard thread.



/lol

I would argue that "We saw this before with 3* progression" is not a good counter argument.
If it's widely acknowledged that we had this problem before, why are we having the same problem again?

Precisely.

I'm guessing it's players still spending money, so they didn't care so much. But now that the bar of money has been raised so incredibly high, maybe the whales will even start getting pissed.

I would argue that by my last word in that quote, it was obvious i was making a joke..

so far, i am well below the average as far as % of 5* pulls go, but, i still need many millions of iso and loads of 4* covers before i even care. The 5*s so far, are fun on trivial nodes, but maybe next year they will be useful for me. In the mean time, i still use CP for tokens.. if i get one, i get one.. i am in no hurry.

Unknown

I agree 100%. Seriously, who on the game design team sat down and said "you know what would be great for the next progression level in this game? Awarding the strongest characters in the game by total dumb luck." I'm on a top team where no one has whaled to get LT, yet we have people with 1 5* cover like myself all the way up to someone who managed to pull 16 5*, even though we all have put in similar time/effort into playing the game and have all pulled around the same amount of LT's... how does that make any sense? Not to mention the fact that I am about a season away at my current pull rate from not being able to compete with people who have 2* rosters but are pulling crazy amounts of 5*s. I was actually excited when 5*s were initially announced, but with the way they have been implemented, I feel like I want to just give up on MPQ

Hayek

If you're solidly in 4* territory, the only progression left to you is 5* progression.

The two problems that compound each other is that acquiring 5* covers is completely luck based and that 5*s are so insanely more powerful than 4*s (remember 450 SS trouncing 270 HB/JG/Cn?). So there will be a point where people who were at a certain tier will get left behind by no fault of their own. 1 out of 100 of you will open 50 LTs and not get a single 5*. And it's not a vault, so those 50 pulls don't influence your odds going forward in any way.

Dauthi

jsonc wrote:

I agree 100%. Seriously, who on the game design team sat down and said "you know what would be great for the next progression level in this game? Awarding the strongest characters in the game by total dumb luck."

Sounds like every MMORPG ever. You have to run dungeons to get "epic" loot, and it's all luck. You can run the dungeon constantly and come up with nothing, while another guy may get it on his first run. The difference is MPQ is limited on how often you can attempt obtaining this loot. In short, there just needs to be more ways to get legendaries related to how many 4*s you already have.

Pylgrim

Taking in account that CPs (and the LTs you buy with them) are not the answer even for the 4* transition, I'd answer OP's question with a resounding 'no'.

Eddiemon

No they aren't the answer, but they also aren't meant to be the answer.

5*s are a luxury item in the current meta. You're not supposed to be facing maxed 5*s in PvP and you're not supposed to need maxed 5*s to compete.

They are still releasing 4* characters in droves, so it's not like people have nothing to collect or 'no further progression'.

Once 5* becomes actual progression they are going to be buffing 4*s to make it progression and not the ridiculous gap it is at the moment, and they will offer better ways to cover them.

Dragon_Nexus

Malcrof wrote:

I would argue that by my last word in that quote, it was obvious i was making a joke..

so far, i am well below the average as far as % of 5* pulls go, but, i still need many millions of iso and loads of 4* covers before i even care. The 5*s so far, are fun on trivial nodes, but maybe next year they will be useful for me. In the mean time, i still use CP for tokens.. if i get one, i get one.. i am in no hurry.

Poe's law, dude. Wasn't sure
Thought you were joking but it was still an argument I'd seen around a lot.

mohio wrote:

4* transition now has the problem of just a scarcity of covers. You can get a big influx at release, but then you're almost forced to buy covers because the normal reward rotation will leave it taking forever to get those covers "naturally". This transition now relies a heavy amount on legendary (and a smaller amount heroic/event) token luck. You need to open 3 or 4 (or more) covers of a single character in order to get them anywhere near fully covered.

This is generally my issue.
Even when 3* progression was an issue, I could still play PvP and get a single 3* cover every time, and if I had a good run I'd maybe get two covers depending on my finishing.
PvE was easier, I'd usually get two 3* covers by the end plus a freebie in progression.

4* though? My only hope is hitting 1000 in PvP, which I can usually do these days. I can't finish first or second place in events. I'm not good enough to hit 1300 in PvP for the legendary. My options for DDQ are limited now since all of my well covered 4*s are done and all that's left is my 1-4 covered guys.

Why is there no obtainable 4* reward for placement in PvE? Why when the model has shifted to a more populated 4* game is the only 4* placement reward for finishing 1st or 2nd? It sure as hell isn't fun grinding away at PvE for a whole week just for *one* legendary token. Especially since I can have more fun from PvP in the time spent away from PvE...which I generally don't play because come ON will you put Iron Fist up for reward already? ;.;

Raffoon

I logged in just to upvote the OP.

If

5*s are really meant to represent an end-game progression

And

They are going to so vastly outshine 4*'s that a fully covered 5* can beat a full team of 4*s

Then

Having a luck based system where people can obtain every legendary token physically possible and still not make any progress on their 5*s is ridiculous and unacceptable.

The ability to buy a 5* cover (that you already have 1 of) for the cost of 29 legendary tokens does nothing to fix this issue. Please fix this fast, devs.

puppychow

I'll be honest. 5* have not been very impressive. The only thing different about them is that if you whale on iso to max them out to 450, their 3-match dmg will eventually kill the enemy team. A 350 buffed 4* team could probably handle a max 5* team.

I'll continue to grind for cps and legendary tokens only because I'm interested in collecting all covers in the game. My 5* will not go above 255, unless something drastically changes in pve/pvp events.