Best ** Hitter??? Ares, Thor, or Wolvie??

Unknown

Tolken wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Ares's green should be considered doing half damage unless you killed their only green user with Onslaught, or that they have no green users to begin with, because it's pretty much guaranteed that the opposing team will immediately use those green back at you if they have any surviving green users.

That argument only makes sense on PVP-AI defense or with an idiot playing. You're "unless" situation is actually how the vast majority play him.
It's still rare for games to last long enough to really hit 30 green ap, so the ap isn't wasted as the buildup for the killshot happens.

Since the game never sends you videos of how your Ares stupidly gave the other side greens on defense that enabled them to kill you, clearly that never happened.

People who think Ares's green is good have no idea how bad it is when the situation is reversed. There's a reason why it does a very high amount of damage for its tier, because it's the one skill that can reliably get your whole team killed when he's defending. Don't mistake the PvE level 230 Ares who really doesn't have much drawback for his green compared to a level 85 PvP opponent. Doing 1200 damage and give the other team 3 green can often be the move that gets your whole team killed.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Tolken wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Ares's green should be considered doing half damage unless you killed their only green user with Onslaught, or that they have no green users to begin with, because it's pretty much guaranteed that the opposing team will immediately use those green back at you if they have any surviving green users.

That argument only makes sense on PVP-AI defense or with an idiot playing. You're "unless" situation is actually how the vast majority play him.
It's still rare for games to last long enough to really hit 30 green ap, so the ap isn't wasted as the buildup for the killshot happens.

Since the game never sends you videos of how your Ares stupidly gave the other side greens on defense that enabled them to kill you, clearly that never happened.

People who think Ares's green is good have no idea how bad it is when the situation is reversed. There's a reason why it does a very high amount of damage for its tier, because it's the one skill that can reliably get your whole team killed when he's defending. Don't mistake the PvE level 230 Ares who really doesn't have much drawback for his green compared to a level 85 PvP opponent. Doing 1200 damage and give the other team 3 green can often be the move that gets your whole team killed.

That's why Ares is good with Punisher, because Punisher has an 8AP green which takes priority, and it's pretty rare for Ares to decide to use Onslaught at 6-7AP unless he's been sitting on it for a long time.

Unknown

Celerity wrote:

That's why Ares is good with Punisher, because Punisher has an 8AP green which takes priority, and it's pretty rare for Ares to decide to use Onslaught at 6-7AP unless he's been sitting on it for a long time.

I'm not saying Ares is weak or that there aren't ways to work around Onslaught. I'm just saying you're not getting that extra good ratio of damage (about 200 per 1 green) without paying something back, and just because his weakness on defense happens to be something you don't physically observe (the game leaves out the gruesome details of your team's demise on defense) doesn't mean the weakness isn't there.

In the worst case scenario you could do an Onslaught on Patch, who just regen that damage back in a few turns and then finish your team with a Berserker Rage since you just provided him the green he needed. Ares is very good on attack, but it comes at a cost. It's up to the player to decide if it's worth it, or find a way to minimize the weakness.

Phaserhawk

Phantron wrote:

Celerity wrote:

That's why Ares is good with Punisher, because Punisher has an 8AP green which takes priority, and it's pretty rare for Ares to decide to use Onslaught at 6-7AP unless he's been sitting on it for a long time.

I'm not saying Ares is weak or that there aren't ways to work around Onslaught. I'm just saying you're not getting that extra good ratio of damage (about 200 per 1 green) without paying something back, and just because his weakness on defense happens to be something you don't physically observe (the game leaves out the gruesome details of your team's demise on defense) doesn't mean the weakness isn't there.

In the worst case scenario you could do an Onslaught on Patch, who just regen that damage back in a few turns and then finish your team with a Berserker Rage since you just provided him the green he needed. Ares is very good on attack, but it comes at a cost. It's up to the player to decide if it's worth it, or find a way to minimize the weakness.

Spot on Phantron.

Rule #1 of Ares, kill their green users first and hold back on Onslaught until you can finish them off. I love Ares' defense though. Basically he screams for the other team to hurt him so his red can be maximized. Also much like Spidey is a Spidey's counter, Ares is his own counter, if they have Ares, use one yourself, they will feed you green.

chamber44

my Ares is only at 16, 1/2/4, so I don't use him very much. But now that I was able to respec Thor to 3/5/5 (from 5/3/5), i'm furious that I wasted any ISO on Wolvie. A properly specked Thor is a beast, even though he's only at 56 (compared to my **Wolvie at 77).

NorthernPolarity

chamber44 wrote:

my Ares is only at 16, 1/2/4, so I don't use him very much. But now that I was able to respec Thor to 3/5/5 (from 5/3/5), i'm furious that I wasted any ISO on Wolvie. A properly specked Thor is a beast, even though he's only at 56 (compared to my **Wolvie at 77).

Is Wolvie really that bad nowadays? I haven't played too much with the new version, but he still seems like a pretty good character on paper.

mags1587

I don't think he's bad at all. It's not as good as it was, but it's still only 6 green to get at least 1 strike tile on the board, plus 1 for every 3 red AP. It's still easy to collect enough green to cast Feral Claws a couple of times, filling the board with strike tiles, and that will end a match quickly no matter who you've teamed up with him. His healing is pretty much gone, but otherwise I'm still happy with him.

chamber44

mags1587 wrote:

I don't think he's bad at all. It's not as good as it was, but it's still only 6 green to get at least 1 strike tile on the board, plus 1 for every 3 red AP. It's still easy to collect enough green to cast Feral Claws a couple of times, filling the board with strike tiles, and that will end a match quickly no matter who you've teamed up with him. His healing is pretty much gone, but otherwise I'm still happy with him.

for me, it's just that moving from a 5/3/5 Thor to a 3/5/5 Thor is revelatory. Wolvie is still good, and I went back to him for longer fights (strike tiles)

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

chamber44 wrote:

my Ares is only at 16, 1/2/4, so I don't use him very much. But now that I was able to respec Thor to 3/5/5 (from 5/3/5), i'm furious that I wasted any ISO on Wolvie. A properly specked Thor is a beast, even though he's only at 56 (compared to my **Wolvie at 77).

Is Wolvie really that bad nowadays? I haven't played too much with the new version, but he still seems like a pretty good character on paper.

He's squishy. He doesn't have enough hitpoints to tank, and his healing factor was nerfed to the point that it's functionally useless. The advantage of old wolvie was that you could have him out front slashing people up - you can still do that with Patch or Daken - but the new version of Astonishing needs to be kept in the back or he'll get killed too easily.

Unknown

Wolverine is still fine. He's not squishy unless you simply don't know how to match yellow tiles when he's low enough to benefit from Healing Factor. The problem is that his maximum HP is low enough that he might not be able to survive a featured character's primary attack while someone like Thor can, but that was always true even when his regeneration was constant. With the recent trend of lowering the amount of boost the featured character gets, things should be better for him. Obviously if you see a guy who can do more than 3560 HP on a single attack, you probably don't want to use Wolverine.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Wolverine is still fine. He's not squishy unless you simply don't know how to match yellow tiles when he's low enough to benefit from Healing Factor. The problem is that his maximum HP is low enough that he might not be able to survive a featured character's primary attack while someone like Thor can, but that was always true even when his regeneration was constant. With the recent trend of lowering the amount of boost the featured character gets, things should be better for him. Obviously if you see a guy who can do more than 3560 HP on a single attack, you probably don't want to use Wolverine.

I'd disagree. Unless the yellow is feeding someone else, you're making fairly useless matches just to keep him alive. And the issue isn't 3560 points, it's about 1800 - once he's down to halfway he won't heal much above it. And there are plenty of skills that do 1800 from characters you face all the time. I find him getting knocked out way too often unless I keep him in the back, and I'm finding Daken much more useful, even at a lower level, since he acts like Astonishing used to.