PvP Gameplay & Etiquette Questions

simonsez

aesthetocyst wrote:

Of course in sports, points that are won are never lost.

Clearly you've never played shuffleboard at a high level

BlackSheep101

Unless you're trying to place in the top 10, there's no benefit to trying to drag down the people already there. If you are trying to place in the top 10, going head first into a semi-organized syndicate of players disrupting their coordinated efforts will get you beaten down as has been described.

On the other side, people keep touting how coordinating hops results in more points in a slice, which benefits everyone. You're really only benefiting the people that play at the same time with the same system as you do since you're shielding for extended periods of time, effectively removing you from the slice for any but those who knew to queue you up while you were unshielded. Those of us who can't coordinate on Line and have very specific times in which we can play have very little chance of stumbling upon a high value target hopping.

BlackSheep101

First, if the people hitting the shield hoppers in your example are all listening on Line and waiting politely like they should, the whole slice isn't benefiting, just the people who are playing in the same system. The only ones who see the hopper are those who start skipping as soon as the hop is announced or those that get happen to skip right then and get astronomically lucky. Even the hopper's target probably doesn't see them since they're shield hopping too.

I can't say I've ever seen 70 point match ups after reaching 800 points, let alone 3 nodes' worth. I skip a couple dozen times to find a 40 point match. Maybe it's my slice or maybe it's my bad luck with brackets or maybe I just don't play at the same time as the top tier does so they're all invisible to me. The times I've reached 1000 I've just pushed straight up from under 800 taking the 40+ point fights I can find and not getting hit back because it's a quiet time. I often have to take 35 point matches because skipping eventually just shows me the same people and I can't sit there making no progress.

PeterGibbons316

Der_Lex wrote:

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

JVReal wrote:

Linkster79 wrote:

This is what I take great umbridge with. What purpose does organised bullying like that serve? To enforce some unwritten rule that some have no knowledge of and unless the player being bullied is a member of these forums or other game related chats will never know why they are being targeted? I use the term being bullied because that is exactly what it is.

I keep reading about letting players do their precious shields hops undisturbed as if it is for The Greater Good[/], but guess what? It is player versus player and the way to win is to score more points than everyone else and the best way to do that is to take points of those who are your direct rivals. I would love to see an event that has a prize so great that none could resist it, an event that has no shards and no brackets just one big pool of players and it is winner takes all with no alliance prizes. Let's see how so called ettiquette works out then!

So, when you are in a race, you are ok with tripping the guy ahead of you to gain time and distance? That is exactly what you are implying, not just performing better, scoring more, but to target those ahead of you and reduce their points to increase yours. There is no sportsmanship in that.

It's bullying when a sniper is targeted (theoretically you), but not bullying when your competitor for 1st place is targeted by you? Interesting.

That's absurd. Is it bad sportsmanship when a football team plays defense? This is what you are saying. If you are trying to finish in the top spot then you should absolutely be searching for people that are above you to go unshielded and then hit them immediately.

The problem with "bullying" is that most times the target being bullied has no idea how or why they are being targeted, or what they did to deserve it. So it's mostly vengeance, likely doesn't alter behavior, and doesn't really help the community.

Except that the 'bullying' is exactly the kind of defensive play you're referring to, but now enacted by a whole alliance or other group of players. Again, if anything goes, teamwork and cooperation is perfectly valid too.

No it isn't. Bullying is meant to "teach a lesson" to "snipers". If your alliance is targeting top players so that your alliance can take the top spots in their bracket then great, more power to them. But if they are trying to hit people because those people hit them first, to send a message of "if you attack someone in X alliance then expect to get hit back....HARD!" then it's "bullying" and not productive. That message probably never gets received.

Look, I've found 75 point targets on my way to 1000 and hit them without delay. But I wasn't "sniping", I was just playing my game. I've probably been targeted before and never knew it, and it didn't change my play style.

mgallop

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

No it isn't. Bullying is meant to "teach a lesson" to "snipers". If your alliance is targeting top players so that your alliance can take the top spots in their bracket then great, more power to them. But if they are trying to hit people because those people hit them first, to send a message of "if you attack someone in X alliance then expect to get hit back....HARD!" then it's "bullying" and not productive. That message probably never gets received.

Look, I've found 75 point targets on my way to 1000 and hit them without delay. But I wasn't "sniping", I was just playing my game. I've probably been targeted before and never knew it, and it didn't change my play style.

The sniping/not-sniping thing is an unhelpful term. As is etiquette. There is "playing cooperatively" and "playing uncooperatively." And when people repeatedly hit "non-cooperative players" they are "enforcing"

Again, enforcing has two possible effects.
1) Ideally, people realize that playing non-cooperatively leads to bad outcomes, then starts playing more cooperatively.
2) People who play uncooperatively are more likely to lose their queues to retals and are forced to shield earlier.

The first relies on people figuring out whats going on, going on the forums and learning about "etiquette" and is therefore not particularly reliable. The second though, means that enforcing/hitting non-cooperative players is beneficial to those playing cooperatively no matter how much it changes non-cooperative players' behavior. If you are only able to play 1 match before needing to shield because of the incoming attacks, and you are the type of person who doesn't wait to attack high value targets, thats awesome for those of us playing cooperatively. If you were going to hit someone on a hop, and then you lose the node that would hit them because an enforcer is repeatedly hitting you, thats awesome for those of us playing cooperatively.

And I'd again point out, that if everyone plays cooperatively, WAY MORE PEOPLE GET 4* COVERS. Seriously, compare playing in Slice 4 (X-Slice) to Slice 5 (pointless wasteland).

MyFeetStink

I have been playing to 1k for the last few seasons, and feeling like I would like to to get to the point where I play to 1300. There was a similar thread, along with some very nice PMs, from some users that gave me solid advice which helped me getting to 1k per event. Mostly these relate to queuing up targets while shielded, checking to see if they are shielded, and then hitting once they have shields up. This has helped me a lot as I don't have to worry about retaliations and I can control my play time easier. The fact that it is considered polite is gravy for me as I try to be nice.

I would not mind coordinated playing, I just don't have the "network" to do so as I am not in any battle chat Line groups to coordinate. These threads are all well and good to encourage this sort of play, but I don't see a "call to action" at all on what is the first step a player can do to start playing this way. (If anyone wants to invite me, I am game.) Along with getting my 4*s in order, I do think if this makes hitting that 1.3k goal easier, awesome. I understand the various objections to this sort of play, but the developers obviously know its going on and they are not taking any steps to stop it, so it seems this is just part of the game design to me.

One item I do feel bad about however is how the game does encourage double tapping targets. I was trying to get points today before doing a 1st shield, and I wanted to do it over 800. I was close, and spent over 1k of ISO hitting next but the ONLY target worth any points was the same guy I had just attacked. I felt bad about it, but I had to hit him so I could go about my day. It was that or not shield, trying again later, just to be polite to a stranger.

The even more frustrating thing about it was there was a number of players I could see that had more points with no shields that just were not showing up as I hit skip. I wanted to attack them, not this same guy twice. Opening up the queue so you have more possible targets and having a cool down of say 10 mins before the same target gets back in the queue would be really nice.

So sorry guy from Villains Inc. My kids were starving and I needed the bread.

Ludaa

MyFeetStink wrote:

So sorry guy from Villains Inc. My kids were starving and I needed the bread.

R.I.P. MyFeetStink

PeterGibbons316

aesthetocyst wrote:

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

That's absurd. Is it bad sportsmanship when a football team plays defense? This is what you are saying. If you are trying to finish in the top spot then you should absolutely be searching for people that are above you to go unshielded and then hit them immediately.

The problem with "bullying" is that most times the target being bullied has no idea how or why they are being targeted, or what they did to deserve it. So it's mostly vengeance, likely doesn't alter behavior, and doesn't really help the community.

That's a decidedly offensive conception of "defense". Defense in sports is concerned with preventing another team from scoring, and in earning the right to go back on offense. Not in taking points away from another team.

In MPQ, defense is shielding.

Of course in sports, points that are won are never lost.

Stop being ridiculous. It's player versus player. As an individual player competing against another individual player, your only method of defense against that player is to attack them - specifically while they are unshielded.

fight4thedream

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

Stop being ridiculous. It's player versus player. As an individual player competing against another individual player, your only method of defense against that player is to attack them - specifically while they are unshielded.

No, actually it's not.

What we commonly call PvP is listed in the "Versus" section of the game but it does not strictly refer to such battles as player vs player. Both personal player awards and alliance awards are available in such events and the points scored in such events influences your personal standing and your alliance's standing for the season.

If you are trying to "win" so to speak, it behooves a player to join a good alliance for a few reasons:
1. Alliance rewards (the better your alliance, the more ISO, HP, tokens and covers you get)
2. Alliance cooperation (easiest way to reach high points in PvP)

It may have once been true that the Versus section was "player vs player" but that all changed with the introduction of the alliances and implementation of the shield system.

The real "problem" if that's what you want to call it, is that the game lacks a proper in-game messaging system, for better or worse. Most alliances would rather not have to "enforce" and if they could send a quick message to a "sniper" explaining the situation they would. But unfortunately that is not possible currently.

So that leaves them with three options:

a. don't do anything and allow non-members to take advantage of their efforts to the detriment of the alliance members (which would consequently beg the question: Why am I going to all this trouble just so a late comer can piggy back on my efforts and steal my points?)

or

b. do something about it to ensure alliance members that their efforts are not in vain. And the only thing they can really do about it currently is the "enforce" tactic

or

c. contact the offending player and try to find a way to play together without negatively affecting each others score. (However, this is option is largely only available to those that have LINE. It is what it is folks)


What needs to be clear, however, is that if you happen to hit one person in an alliance during a hop one time, it is very unlikely you will be put on a hit list. You are referred to as a "random". What gets people put on "hit lists" are three things:

1. You double or triple tap the same player during an event (usually you will be put on a hit list for that event only)
2. You hit multiple members of the same alliance in the same event (well organized alliances keep track of who is taking their points, usually on the hit list for that event only)
3. You have a history of sniping members from the alliance in multiple events (you are placed on the permanent hit list)

Also, if you are not scoring 1000 points in a PvP regularly you probably don't have to worry. If you lose a lot of points it's probably because your roster isn't strong enough to compete for high level play. But if you really are curious about whether you are on a hit list or not, just check the members who are attacking you. If the majority of them are from one alliance or mega-alliance, then yes you probably are on a hit list. But if you are getting hit by bunch of random people then you are just using a less than optimal team.

If you do think you are on hit list, the best thing you can do is contact the alliance that is attacking you, either here on the forum or on LINE. Most of these alliances would be happy to find a way where you can score big without you "stealing" points from them. (And FYI, my alliance is a PvE alliance so please don't flood my PM box with questions about hit lists or joining a PvP alliance lol Check the Alliance forum out, I am sure you can find someone better qualified to help you there)

Anyway getting back to my main point, PvP is not really "player vs player" just as PvE isn't really "player vs event" (you compete with other players for ranking and awards ding-a-ling) so it doesn't help your argument to call it that.
And once again, I have said too much. Just hope it helps those that still aren't clear about what's up with that crazy game called MPQ! ﾞ☆⌒o(*^ｰﾟ)v

Unknown

If you hit the wrong guy, say a very vengative person, and he is part of a well organized alliance, you WILL be hunt down and make your pvp play really hard. That's how things are, is a fact, there's a lot of discuss about the morality of that already, not gonna dig into that, I'm just presenting it as a fact. I have been in both sides, a couple of times while I was starting to be competitive in pvp, suddenly got hit by multiple members of the same alliance and that moment I knew I was being intentionally hunted, now a couple of months later, I'm in a decently structured alliance, and some guys in my alliance get really mad when they lose points while hopping and so the hunt for the "sniper" begins.

NO ONE is going to change this, there's not any kind of speech or reason argument that will make stop all this. As a friendly advice I do recommend everyone plays at least with a bit of etiquette. Some people do get joy by sniping people at the top, while others just hit a guy that is worth a lot of points and is not trying to be mean spirited, but to the people that hunt these guys down, there's not difference between both, they are all snipers that deserve being hit over and over.

This is pvp in mpq, and is not gonna change

PeterGibbons316

So to sum up PvP Etiquette......

Two wrongs make a right.

Thanks for the discussion, stay classy gents.

PeterGibbons316

aesthetocyst wrote:

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

So to sum up PvP Etiquette......

Two wrongs make a right.

Thanks for the discussion, stay classy gents.

So your offense is "defense", and your "defense" is a wrong? You are a most confused fellow, Gibbons. All topsy-turvy, upside down, inwards out. Not sure if you're going for a Bizarro-vibe, or Mxyzptlk, but this here is a Marvel-themed game. Perhaps the root of this confusion is a case of wrong universitis?

Look, I'm wrong here. Virtually everyone else's opinion is different from mine. I'm not a fool, I can recognize that. It would seem that attacking people that aren't shielded is poor etiquette - a "wrong". And so the response to that is what? Target that person. Continually attack them while they are unshielded, get them back.....another "wrong". So in this case two wrongs make a right. That appears to be the stance of everyone in here.

Just for the record, I play cooperatively when shielded. Not because I'm a nice guy, or because I don't want to hurt the feelings of other players, and because it's good etiquette, or the "right" thing to do. I do it because it benefits me.

Pylgrim

BlackSheep101 wrote:

First, if the people hitting the shield hoppers in your example are all listening on Line and waiting politely like they should, the whole slice isn't benefiting, just the people who are playing in the same system. The only ones who see the hopper are those who start skipping as soon as the hop is announced or those that get happen to skip right then and get astronomically lucky. Even the hopper's target probably doesn't see them since they're shield hopping too.

I can't say I've ever seen 70 point match ups after reaching 800 points, let alone 3 nodes' worth. I skip a couple dozen times to find a 40 point match. Maybe it's my slice or maybe it's my bad luck with brackets or maybe I just don't play at the same time as the top tier does so they're all invisible to me. The times I've reached 1000 I've just pushed straight up from under 800 taking the 40+ point fights I can find and not getting hit back because it's a quiet time. I often have to take 35 point matches because skipping eventually just shows me the same people and I can't sit there making no progress.

(emphasis mine) This is absolutely right, I'm afraid. While I was in a top 100 alliance and final even score was as important as progression rewards (i.e. you were shielding), I gave a try to this "system" and I found it highly rewarding, even with the added complexity. (There are a big group of good people who actually enjoy, and have the free time to, hanging out in the Line chat, making friends, discussing the game or other stuff, etc. and who seem to have a hard time understanding the people who either don't enjoy chatting nor/or don't have the time for it and for whom the "system" represents added complication and time investment to the game. But I digress.) However, after completing my 3* transition and discovering that I didn't need to play every single PVP but only the ones with a 1k progression reward I wanted, it didn't make sense to remain in a top 100 alliance anymore (I can't care less for bragging rights), nor it made sense to shield to protect my score, either. Under these circumstances, the system is more a liability than an asset for me.

Being realistic, you cannot just "wait" for a player to finish their hop; not if you are unshielded. While you courteously allow them to climb, you'll be discourteously savaged by the people beneath you. This only works if you are shielded and looking for targets while you are shielded as opposed to right before or during your climb. But if you are not interested or willing to shield? You need to be fast and efficient. You still can try to do a few small courtesies such as playing the less valuable nodes you find (above 40, still!) first in the hopes that the obvious hopper awarding 60+ points will finish their hop before their turn comes, or avoiding double-tapping. And yet, sometimes is simply not possible; you skip and skip and skip and you can't find a single player giving you more than 30 points besides that guy giving you 70. Very, very sorry but spending any more time (and Iso!) skipping will just get me savaged so I'll have to hit that.

On the brighter side, the moment I hit that 1k reward, I'll stop playing immediately (my abysmal luck with Legendary Tokens discourages me from going for 1.3k), meaning that I stop being a threat and that I give an easy target to the people beneath me who may actually need the placement rewards, so I'll happily sink to sub-700 scores.

I do understand how this behaviour may be frowned upon by the circle of the "civilised". We are after all, a species that praises the lion and despises the hyena. What is generally not understood is that both the lion and the hyena act according to the capabilities assigned to them by natural selection. The lion has a big size, strong, beclawed paws and neck-snapping jaws, like some MPQ players have wealth of time, or wealth of money for shields and the ability or desire to gather in collaborative prides. The hyena is smaller and weaker, but swifter and cunning (some would say underhanded) and those traits will have to do when it comes to survival.