5*: The Beginning of the End

dider152

Now, disclaimer: I know this seems to be just another topic pointing out how flawed the 4* DPD is, but the DPD situation is just a symptom of the problem, not the cause; the timing is completely coincidental. I'll touch on the DPD situation, but note that I think it's implemented badly, not the reason for this thread.. Now on to the meat of what I have to say.

Why do I say that the "5* transition" is the beginning of the end for this game? Simply because of the way it's been handled.

First, I believe it's way too early to release 5*. I've been here 405 days at this point, and I've noticed that the next star level usually starts when there is a sizable number of characters in the previous star level available. That's not the case here, as there are only 16 of them out currently. We should have time to build up our roster of 4* and we should have time to put more covers together.

Secondly, 5* are way too powerful out of the gate. The base level of 1* was 1. The base level of a 2* character is 15. The base level of 3* characters is 40. The base level of 4* characters is 70. Can somebody tell me why the base level of 5* characters is 255 (around there; I could be wrong, as I don't have it)? I heard that they wanted 5* characters to be strong out of the gate and for them to only need 1-3 covers to be strong, but why? This just seems like overkill to me. If the trend of base levels from 1* characters to 4* was observed, the base level of the 5* characters should be around 100, or 110 at the most. Why they chose to make the characters so out balanced is beyond me. This is to say nothing of the ridiculously high hit points that will make battles more of a slog than anything and it's easy for me to see why this was not a good idea.

Third, the issue with scaling. If you've been playing PvE, you've probably realized that keeping your roster low helps a lot in letting you get high scores, sometimes even top 20 or even top overall. Now, having a 255 level character will seriously screw your scaling. I believe you won't see the effects of this immediately since we are in the middle of an event, and new character additions don't skew scaling at this point, but wait until the start of the next event and you will suddenly see your baseline scaling go up from what it was before to something a lot higher. I also think IceIX said that scaling shouldn't be affected, but I don't think it's true since we already know that the difficulty is based on the average of the levels of the first three characters in your roster.

Fourth, and most damning in my opinion, is that there is almost no 4* transition. The 1* to 2* transition is obvious: the covers fall like rain from all the tokens, and you should be able to cover most if not all the 2* as long as you have the iso8. The 2* to 3* transition is also obvious. You can get covers from PvE and PvP, and the DPD is also very helpful with that. As long as you have one 3* cover, you are able to get an additional cover through the DPD.

The 3* to 4* transition is a lot more difficult. Getting to 1000 to 1300 in PvP is easy enough for some, but a constant frustration for others. For instance, I have a decently leveled roster with every character but I have trouble passing 900 in PvP before being beat down and giving up in frustration. I only got past 1000 in one event in all of last season. The only other surefire way is to get within the top 100 on a characters debut event and to have a good alliance. If you don't place, tough luck because the event is never run again, and you have to rely on the unfavorable token odds. You can get a legendary if you grind on a PvE event, but unless you have the luxury of pulling the game out and spending hours grinding whenever you want to, it's not really feasible.

The easy solution would have been to create a 4* DPD like the one they did for the 3*. In the 3* DPD, a character with only one cover could go in with 2 other team mates, and they could still have gained the extra 3* cover. If there was a 4* DPD hosted by the 4* Deadpool with 5 nodes like the other Deadpool Daily, maybe we would have been more satisfied with what we got. Instead we got a rushed node against a nigh impossible character with max abilities and a boosted level. Only the whales, the impossibly lucky people who had good boards, and the try-hards were able to finish the thing. Going back to the difficulty, maybe they didn't want too many people to be able to get a legendary token, which can potentially open up people to get a 5* before they are ready. The solution is simple, in my opinion: create a "platinum" level token that only offers 4* characters. With this new token (if there needs to be a token for this at all), using the separate 4* DPD event idea, there would actually be a useful 4* transition.

Fifth: A problem, but also a question. Since 5* are so ridiculously strong and hard to get, are they going to be the last rarity? If not, how would they do 6*? Would they start at level 800? What will happen with their health? Power creep could also destroy this game. Comparing power levels, it seems like 5* characters will make anything lower than the 3* rarity, and probably half of the 4* roster, obsolete.

It's not like any of these problems can't be fixed. The 5* issue probably won't be fixed since Demiurge is unlikely to reassess the 5* rarity, so as it stands I feel that this might be the beginning of the end (the 5* rarity is a big problem, in my opinion) and we may have this game declining within the next year or two. Like, I said, it's not like this downward turn of the game cannot change due to patches and updates, but I'm really pessimistic with the recent changes. I still think creating a 4* DPD like I outlined above would help, but when have Demiurge ever made a timely change? I mean they still can't fix the combat UI., and the suggestions forum is already full of good changes they can already implement.

tl;dr The five star change is the root of the big problems this game is facing and could lead to its downfall. I feel that an authentic 4* DPD is needed to ease the 4* transition, instead of just a nearly impossible node that the elite can complete.

jimstarooney

The simple solution for getting to 1k is shields.after 900 a shield pit up and then line 2 good pointers up (or 1 if u arent very fast)i nearly always hit 1k using this method.

dr tinykittylove

If you already have a developed 3* roster, level them up. I can't say enough how much easier pvp gets with high level characters. If you're really worried about scaling, level them in steps to see how much it is affected, but personally, I find pve still quite doable with a good range of usable characters you can match to enemies.

And being able to get to 1k regularly is the most effective way to transition to 4*s. I am very much not a fan of the token gamble even though I have relatively good luck and pull 4*s semi-regularly. (They just seem to be dupes more often than not the past two seasons.)

Shadow

First off, for someone who can't even reach 1k easily on a regular basis, the 5* would hardly affect you. There will be more than enough lower teams to hit the point range that you're currently getting.

Secondly, it really isn't a lot of effort to reach 70k in the Hulk event. 70k is less than half what the top players will be getting in this pve and really only requires minimal gameplay. 1 clear within 4 hours of the sub open, another clear within 10 hours of that after the 8 hour mark of course and another clear within 10 hours of that. Doing that on all the subs would get you to that legendary token. How hard can that be? It's super not optimal but gets the job done.

puppychow

A number of points. As others have pointed out, you need to invest hp in shielding in order to reach 1k. Unless you got a 450 SS defense you will get hit regardless of what your defense is.

Second, the current pve event hasn't been all that difficult to reach 70k points, if you play consistently every 8 hours and then grind until you heals run out in the last hour. For this event, I only played the trivial and the essential nodes; i skipped any harder node unless it's all goons. So that means I'm only playing 6-7 nodes per sub. But still I managed to reach 70k on my 5th sub. If I can reach 70k while skipping 1/3 of the nodes each sub, then the legendary token is certainly in reach for most players if they play each sub consistently.

As far as introducing a 5 tier is concerned, I personally agree that the relative lack of 4 characters compared to 3 means that there is room for more 4s to be released before 5s are introduced into the game. The fact that D3 decided to release 5s early, to me, points to a possible issue of decline of direct buying of 4* covers. Basically, if the whales stopped spending $$$ buying 4* covers, D3 needs to find other ways to convince whales to continue spending $$$. And to me 5* is meant to resolve the revenue issue. So while I think 5* is introduced too soon, I can understand why D3 would choose to do so.

chaos01

I think you will just see people skipping some transitions all together. A 2 star roster can cruise PVE get legendary tokens as progression obtain 4-5 star characters. Never level them until they are covered. I think you will see the 2-3 star transition become obsolete. At least that is what I would do now.

acescracked

"The Beginning of the End"...really?? Holy **** is that melodramatic!

So no more MPQ from when? Give us an exact date so I can uninstall and save space on my tablet since the end is near.

Bowgentle

acescracked wrote:

"The Beginning of the End"...really?? Holy **** is that melodramatic!

So no more MPQ from when? Give us an exact date so I can uninstall and save space on my tablet since the end is near.

In 6 months, if they don't revert the latest change, according to slidecage.
But he says this after every change that he personally doesn't like, so it's a sliding date.

Just like Keith Richards has 6 months to live, every day.

Der_Lex

The universe will just be rebooted anyway.

We'll just see some changes in the line-up, like Ultimate IceIX joining the main MPQ universe and a new female Jamie Madrox.

Malcrof

Bowgentle wrote:

acescracked wrote:

"The Beginning of the End"...really?? Holy **** is that melodramatic!

So no more MPQ from when? Give us an exact date so I can uninstall and save space on my tablet since the end is near.

In 6 months, if they don't revert the latest change, according to slidecage.
But he says this after every change that he personally doesn't like, so it's a sliding date.

Just like Keith Richards has 6 months to live, every day.

^

Keith Richards should have died 30 years ago.. but like George Burns and MPQ, they will go on for many decades past the expectancy.

5*'s were the next logical level, the deployment and earning of them being "hard to whale, but not impossible" is a good thing. Not only will they not break the game, but i think in the long run.. probably by the 3rd anniversary, they will be the new meta.

Unknown

I think the introduction of 5* characters is fine (and one I welcome) providing they maintain the rarity initially instigated, i.e., no way of getting 5* covers other than a small chance with a legendary token, and of course also maintain the embargo on purchasing legendary tokens directly.

The way I see legendary tokens, they represent a pretty much guaranteed 4* cover with every PVE plus an additional chance every week via DPD. Bearing in mind the relative paucity of 4* characters compared to 3*/2*/1*, it won't be too long before people start seeing their 4* roster expand at a significantly faster rate than the previous state of affairs.

As for the from the gate power of 5* characters, I think this is right as long as the rarity is maintained. Otherwise, with the amount of time it should take to fully cover/level5*, characters would sit on rosters unused, just for show.

First post BTW, hi everyone.

Square

For some reason, people thought the new 5*s and Legendary tokens meant people who had undeveloped rosters could skip ahead to the 4*/5* level. It didn't. I like the use of random tokens, since 2*/3*s can't choose their 4*, and neither can 4* players. Many alliance mates have got 4*s that only equal 1K ISO. Sucks, but that token is better than a 4* they already have the covers for.

I have one SS cover. It won't end up that I pwn the game with that. I succeed or fail on the roster that I developed in the last 400 days. I may get five more covers in the next six months. Six months from now, the 5* players will coast through, but they will have spent the time and the money. Everyone else will be able to catch up, through DPDQ and progression rewards. No, they will not come first in PVP. But boo hoo, "I'm a casual player, and I never come first!" If you can't see what's wrong with that statement, I won't be able to explain the concept of entitlement to you.

The common refrain here is, "The rich get richer." Truth is, the low level players get mid level prizes. The mid level players get mid to high level prizes. The high level player gets the legendary prizes. Not a matter of cash. A matter of time (or cash if that's your style).

Eddiemon

dider152 wrote:

First, I believe it's way too early to release 5*. I've been here 405 days at this point, and I've noticed that the next star level usually starts when there is a sizable number of characters in the previous star level available. That's not the case here, as there are only 16 of them out currently. We should have time to build up our roster of 4* and we should have time to put more covers together.

How did you notice this? I can't recall if 4*s existed form the very beginning or if they were just introduced very early in the game. But there isn't a history of new tiers being released for you to 'notice' any standard behaviour.

Third, the issue with scaling. If you've been playing PvE, you've probably realized that keeping your roster low helps a lot in letting you get high scores, sometimes even top 20 or even top overall. Now, having a 255 level character will seriously screw your scaling. I believe you won't see the effects of this immediately since we are in the middle of an event, and new character additions don't skew scaling at this point, but wait until the start of the next event and you will suddenly see your baseline scaling go up from what it was before to something a lot higher. I also think IceIX said that scaling shouldn't be affected, but I don't think it's true since we already know that the difficulty is based on the average of the levels of the first three characters in your roster.

Is that the new rumour, average level of first three characters? Yes your roster has an impact, no it is nothing compared to your performance history. 'Baseline scaling' is the least influential element of scaling.

But maybe having a 5* will finally mean people will level their rosters and realise that it doesn't actually matter. This is a positive outcome.

Fourth, and most damning in my opinion, is that there is almost no 4* transition. The 1* to 2* transition is obvious: the covers fall like rain from all the tokens, and you should be able to cover most if not all the 2* as long as you have the iso8. The 2* to 3* transition is also obvious. You can get covers from PvE and PvP, and the DPD is also very helpful with that. As long as you have one 3* cover, you are able to get an additional cover through the DPD.

So what? They have introduced one 4* that is a low chance of getting from rarer tokens. 4* isn't superseded by any means yet.

For instance, I have a decently leveled roster with every character but I have trouble passing 900 in PvP before being beat down and giving up in frustration.

Yeah that's the advantage of that rumour about PvE scaling. You keep your characters underlevelled and can't compete in PvP. It's the gift that keeps on giving.

Der_Lex

Eddiemon wrote:

I can't recall if 4*s existed form the very beginning or if they were just introduced very early in the game. But there isn't a history of new tiers being released for you to 'notice' any standard behaviour.

4* Xforce Wolverine has been in the game from the beginning, but he was really, really terrible. Just look up his old stats in the character thread. He was basically a trophy. The same goes for Invisible Woman, who was introduced a little further down the road (yes, she was actually even worse than she is now).

The first viable 4* was Fury, who was introduced at the same time as seasons, and at first he was only available as a season reward. After that the current rotation started and the tier started to become an actual part of the game, but as with 5*, it was a slow feed at first.

slidecage

only way they can save the game is by making 2 events and im sure they realy are thinking about it

1 PVP where anyone can be used better rewards since it will be harder
1 PVP where only 2 and 3 stars can be used

only way this game is going to be playable in 6 months

M C K

jimstarooney wrote:

The simple solution for getting to 1k is shields.after 900 a shield pit up and then line 2 good pointers up (or 1 if u arent very fast)i nearly always hit 1k using this method.

This is a challenge for me only because I refuse to spend HP on shields. If I shield-hopped to 1000 (or even 1300) I wouldn't have the heaping mounds of needed HP left over to open another roster spot for the 4* I'm gunning for in the first place.

slidecage wrote:

only way this game is going to be playable in 6 months

Mark it down, folks...3/16/16 is the Incursion of Battleworld and the MPQ-niverse. I'll start the timer.

XandorXerxes

Beginning of the end is a bit overdramatic, but I do think there are several side effects that will be coming up:

1) One of the Red names has already said something to the effect of "you wouldn't bring a 2* to a 4* fight, why would you bring a 3* to a 5* fight?" I'm more worried about 5*s being brought to the 3* fight. I'll try to fight a fistbuster team, what am I going to do against a 5* team with 3*s? Or those with 5*s could not show up to a fight at all. If a "high level" PvP goes in, that's where all of the top scorers are going to go. When all the top scorers leave, who is going to supply the points in PvP? Getting to 1K will be a lot harder.

2) Legendary tokens will hose new people. I was all for adding a 4* as the progression reward for PvE, even though I don't really do PvE any more. A legendary token, however, gives people a small chance at the 5*. When a person with a 2* roster pulls a Silver Surfer then turns around and uses it next PvE, his or her scaling is going to be awful. Almost needs to be some sort of disclaimer to use at your own risk.

Also, I'm bitter that all the new whipper-snappers will be getting legendary tokens for progressions, when I spent too many hours in PvE before I burned out just trying to fight for a competition spot. You darn kids, get off my lawn.

Unknown

If d3 can give me a 3/5/5 Surfer then I can give you an answer if it is the beginning of the end. But as of right now, it hasn't affected my game play one bit (having 5's in the game).

Malcrof

Just tossing this in here.. i took on my first SS in the Women of Marvel pvp. Not sure of covers, but all 3 colors were represented, and he had 26k Health. Charlie's Angels (GSBW, SW, PX) didn't care, they demolished him.. only GSBW needed a health pack, and that was because his match damage was insane.

so, 2 3*s, and a lvl 145 10 cover 4* (4/4/2) took him down with ease. He was paired with a Fistbuster (yup, not a single woman on the team in a Women of Marvel pvp)

So he is not the beginning of the end of anything, except maybe a health pack or 2.

Unknown

Take a look here OP
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32657

It points a couple things you said.

Now about scaling, 5*s do not affect it. It was said and tested.

And I've been saying it and will repeat: as of now the late 4* to 5* has more space than 3* to 4*. They are skipping a step of the progression.

evil panda

Why is it that whenever a thread starts out with "I know that this looks like just another thread about xxx, but it's not", the thread is really just about xxx all over again.