5-Star Rarity & Silver Surfer Announcement! (In-Depth)

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  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,641 Chairperson of the Boards
    Vhailorx wrote:
    raisinbman wrote:
    Konman wrote:
    When I first started reading, I was disappointed. I kept reading and saw there was to be a 4* DDQ, so I felt a bit better. Then I read some more details about the DDQ 4*, and now I'm disappointed again. You open up a new, higher tier, when most players can't get into the previous highest tier. And your initial attempt to ameliorate that situation, doesn't appear that it will be at all effective. If I still have to get multiple 4* covers by other means, in order to have a chance in the upcoming DDQ 4*, then I am no better off than I was before. Disappointing.
    im really frustrated right now, couldn't even hit 1k points for elektra in army of one...I think what you're saying here is the best way to express that without me getting reported/banned again

    I think this army of one was a particularly tricky PVP for those without strong 4* rosters. Punisher is always a bloody featured character because he has multiple cheap powers that all do a decent amount of damage. He doesn't often produce outright defeat, but he makes every victory painful. It's very hard to deny him all of his colors while also fueling your own offense.

    Moreover, the 3*s boosted this week exacerbated that problem. none of the top tiers were boosted (cage, cyclops, switch, bp, kk, etc). Instead you got daken and patch, both of whom extend matches via their regen, and also tend to produce fair bit of damage without actually letting the ai win.

    All of which means that this event was very taxing on healthpacks.

    As for the introduction of 5*s, if you aren't already whaling, then you have to accept that there will ALWAYS be a tier of play beyond you. It's impossible for the game to survive otherwise, as the devs need to have content that is a challenge for the biggest whale and the newest newb. So 4*s won't be made easier to get for the masses until there is another tier above them to satisfy the whales (just like ddq wasn't introduced until the 4* release rate ticked up in the spring of '15). It will be the same next year for 6*s (if the game lasts that long). It's a perpetual treadmill and the only way to get to the top tier of play WHILE IT IS STILL THE TOP TIER is to pay. Otherwise you can just wait and be content knowing that you will always be a little bit behind the whales.

    I remember when Punisher was one of the best 3s back in the day, and when buffed he is again. Well, he will be the best 3 in the near future when he will do 23k for just 8 red AP icon_e_wink.gif (well the only problem is that you need to get SS first to his last 40% but hey, 23k!!!)



    I am still undecided about what to think of 5s. I have said in the past that 5 will be the death of this game. I am not 100% secure now, because at least seems that the way of getting them is not that bad, and they can be used from the get go, but I am totally against their hitpoints and match damage, it is TOO MUCH, they are game breaking, If whales start playing with them, PvP is just destroyed, and we all know there are going to be SS playing really soon, maybe not maxed but a 3/3/3 SS is enough to break PvP.

    And then for me personally, one of the main motivators for playing was getting the best chars, but now getting SS is really difficult and depends on luck, so all the other 4s have just lost a lot of appealing... For me this game became better when 4 became 'winnable', and I even spended a lot of money, but now I feel I am in a crossroad, because I want SS and I think I am not gonna get him in the near future... (At least 5s are different and a 1/1/1 SS is enough for playing).
  • Looking forward to it!
  • SnagglePuss
    SnagglePuss Posts: 702 Critical Contributor
    Polares wrote:
    I remember when Punisher was one of the best 3s back in the day, and when buffed he is again. Well, he will be the best 3 in the near future when he will do 23k for just 8 red AP icon_e_wink.gif (well the only problem is that you need to get SS first to his last 40% but hey, 23k!!!)

    by the time you get SS down to 23k while carrying Pun on your team, Galactus has probably appeared. Pun TU on the otherhand, it's not like you need the HP for shields now icon_e_wink.gif
  • Some more questions for the Ice-man:

    -So now there will be the 2* tokens that give a smaller chance at 3/4*'s...and 4* tokens with a chance at 5*. Shouldn't there be 3* tokens? Will there be?
    -Is the DDQ Vault change (replacing the specific 4* with the 4* token) restricted to just that, or will there be a mechanic change that invalidates us Taco hoarders? Do we need to eat them up before 9/10 before they all get replaced by...uh, spicy tacos? Or can we continue to leave them Zip-locked in the fridge?

    Thanks.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 5,564 Chairperson of the Boards
    Magisse wrote:
    Some more questions for the Ice-man:

    -So now there will be the 2* tokens that give a smaller chance at 3/4*'s...and 4* tokens with a chance at 5*. Shouldn't there be 3* tokens? Will there be?
    -Is the DDQ Vault change (replacing the specific 4* with the 4* token) restricted to just that, or will there be a mechanic change that invalidates us Taco hoarders? Do we need to eat them up before 9/10 before they all get replaced by...uh, spicy tacos? Or can we continue to leave them Zip-locked in the fridge?

    Thanks.

    I suspect that the devs will tell you not to hoard whether or not hoarding will in fact work.

    when the vault was introduced several devs on the forums said that hoarded tacos would remain locked on whatever character set they had when the vault system went live. It turns out that hoarded tacos continued to work just fine and rotated with the ongoing ddq character groups, just like vault tacos.

    to be clear, I don't think the devs were tricking anyone or doing anything wrong or malicious. I just think they didn't know exactly what would happen (bugs do occur), and the "safe" thing from their perspective to do is to encourage players to use the tokens up and avoid having a swarm of customer service tickets if things are messed up after a new system goes live.
  • John Wayne74
    John Wayne74 Posts: 71 Match Maker
    Personally I think this is about as good as it gets in terms of adding a higher level to the existing game. Yes in parts new players could be hurt and existing players can have a rougher way to go. Some suggestions have been made for changes to PVP & PVE that would be doable.

    PVP definitely would need an overhaul or the monster cash cows of the game would still be the only ones with topped out 5*'s but no matter what you do that is inevitable. A secondary PVP for 3*'s and lower as suggested would be nice. Actually fighting the same levels and working shields to accommodate your play style as opposed to getting the smack down from the 4* or higher that just joined at the beginning ran up to 300 and sat waiting for beatings that would be high point totals at the end is getting old.


    PVE will take a hit at first but in time the vets will tire of it once more and will always only go for progression reward anyway. Unless the Legendary token is the 1st place reward they will likely stop after progression.

    Prologue could also be looked at as another avenue to be revamped. Keep original but cycle a personal level based new prologue that would incorporate the new characters in the game into the dialogue. Having Legendary tokens scarcely populating the rewards and various new 3 and 4* characters as well. This could be a monthly turn around type of addition. (Some of us do play the game because it is fun, be it against others or against AI)

    Just a few suggestions and a big kudos for the attempts you guys are making to drive Mpq forward and to keep interest up.
  • TLCstormz
    TLCstormz Posts: 1,668
    PVP THIS........PVP THAT. 1300 THIS.........1300 THAT. Gosh that gets old.

    Why is no one talking about how **** this will be for 2 > 3 Transitioners or even stagnant 3* players who CANNOT make a dent in PvP, because they flounder with their 100 leveled rosters, for the sake of keeping their PvE enemies manageable?

    Ice, what is being done for THEM? If the only option / suggestion / plan / means that you all have concocted is "lol, hit the double progression, cuz people do it all the time", that sounds extremely lackluster...........
  • dr tinykittylove
    dr tinykittylove Posts: 1,459 Chairperson of the Boards
    TLCstormz wrote:
    PVP THIS........PVP THAT. 1300 THIS.........1300 THAT. Gosh that gets old.

    Why is no one talking about how **** this will be for 2 > 3 Transitioners or even stagnant 3* players who CANNOT make a dent in PvP, because they flounder with their 100 leveled rosters, for the sake of keeping their PvE enemies manageable?

    Ice, what is being done for THEM? If the only option / suggestion / plan / means that you all have concocted is "lol, hit the double progression, cuz people do it all the time", that sounds extremely lackluster...........

    I'll grant your point with 2-3* transitioners, because ddq and gambling on late brackets can only do so much.

    But for people with mostly covered lvl 100 rosters, they really should bite the bullet and level up. There'll definitely be some growing pains while they get used to the new scaling and feel their way through pvp, but I can still get moderately good placement in pve and hop my way to 1k or 1.3k when motivated and I only have a truckload of level 154 3*s.

    * For purposes of pvp my underlevelled 4*s do not have a good time even when buffed and I typically do not use them. And for pve, I was getting top 10 for 4* releases before I had PX usable.

    EDIT: I'm sorry, that may have been badly phrased. Nobody needs to do anything. Preferring pve is a valid choice, and that's why I have my little 155/154 army as opposed to 270/166.

    But the fear of scaling is very much overblown on the forum, in my opinion. You can play both sides of the game, but complaining that you can't play one side because you want to keep your advantage on the other side is iffy to me.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 5,564 Chairperson of the Boards
    But the fear of scaling is very much overblown on the forum, in my opinion. You can play both sides of the game, but complaining that you can't play one side because you want to keep your advantage on the other side is iffy to me.

    A-freakin'men, Dr.

    Gimping your roster for fear of big, bad higher-level goons is cutting your nose off to spite your face. No, worse, it's taking a pay cut to "save" on child support.

    Level those rosters, kids. It's been demonstrated in multiple ways that scaling isn't driven by your roster but rather what you do with it. Gimping yourself gains you no advantage in PvE, but it does holds you back in PvP.

    Do you really enjoy facing weaker opposition with weaker characters? I play two accounts, one approaching day 450, one one day 27. The 450-day account blows through PvP, even the level 300+ stuff. High octane action, wheeeee. The new account flails against level 80 teams, and can't clear all nodes. An extreme comparison, but I know which one I'd rather play!

    Don't go too far in the other direction.

    the good dr. is correct that people complaining that they can't play pvp without losing their pve advantage are silly.

    But saying that scaling can't ever hurt a player is also wrong.

    It's clear that underleved rosters can do well in pve, but it's also clear that top rosters can also do really well. Practically all of X-MenOne has complete rosters have finished top 10 in every 4* release event since March.

    What's not clear is if doing well in PVE with a maxed roster is harder than with an underleveled roster. Still not clear, and possible I suppose. But IMO that's irrelevant given the reward potential from the PVP options available to a maxed roster.

    The key issue with scaling, and with many many other things about this game, is patience. Don't throw ISO at whatever 3* you happen to get covers for first. take your time, collect a decent 3* bench and THEN level them all up. Do the same with 4*s. You will be fine.
  • DrNitroman
    DrNitroman Posts: 966 Critical Contributor
    Vhailorx wrote:
    The key issue with scaling, and with many many other things about this game, is patience. Don't throw ISO at whatever 3* you happen to get covers for first. take your time, collect a decent 3* bench and THEN level them all up. Do the same with 4*s. You will be fine.

    I agree with many points in the three posts above mine.

    Notably the fact that that the progression is gradual in this game and takes time (this can generate frustration of course).
    In pvp, 2*-3* transitioners can aim at 300 for tokens and will be mercilessly crushed above. Early 3* players can aim at 600-800 and a mature 3* roster can reach 1000 consistently in my opinion.

    Consequently, without leveling your roster, you will never progress in pvp. On the other hand, we have to face the fact that pvp is almost forbidden to beginners and transitioners until they level their roster. PvE and DDQ are the best ways to earn the first 3* covers. Still, it's a bit sad that there isn't a pvp for starting players.

    Edit: oh and maybe more on-topic: I'm globally positive on the changes that are incoming. I'm aware that incoming 5* might break the game, sure... we'll see. The most important for me is that there will different ways to transition to 4* and I'm really glad that devs are active to keep the game interesting. Their communication is way better too!
    Thanks and keep the good work guys icon_e_smile.gif
  • puppychow
    puppychow Posts: 1,453
    re: introduction of 5 star.png into the game. We're getting 3 of them in a row, one per month. While silverado might not be game breaking by himself, the other two, collectively, may indeed be game breaking. Imagine facing (eventually) three max 5 star.png in SHIELD> icon_twisted.gif

    Since the third 5fer won't be out til November, I expect to see three 450s by year end. icon_lol.gif

    Add: the reason why goddess/xf were nerfed so heavily earlier this year was because these two became the best partners for any pvp events. And players who maxed them out had no reason to add other characters to their rosters. I, for one, believe the 5 star.png characters will eventually (sometime in 2016) become the equivalent of this year's gt/xf combo, and meet a similar fate. So super whales looking to spend $24k+ in taco vaults to max cover 5 star.png should think whether a year's advantage in pvp is worth the $$$.
  • 10k on season progression also giving a legendary token from season 19 onwards.

    Don't forget random LTokens off DDQ vault and heroic tokens.
  • Linkster79
    Linkster79 Posts: 1,037 Chairperson of the Boards
    Okay so a new tier level? Doesn't interest me that much as I am not anywhere near that stage yet but the real question is will there be any new story to accompany the release or will it just be another bloody Enemy Of The State, or even worse Heroic Juggernaught to herald in a new era?

    Seriously 40 odd years of Marvel history and who knows how many characters and it takes over 8 months to get some new story events?

    P.S. Ultron and Antman do not count as they were for movie releases and are not in rotation.
  • Linkster79 wrote:
    Okay so a new tier level? Doesn't interest me that much as I am not anywhere near that stage yet but the real question is will there be any new story to accompany the release or will it just be another bloody Enemy Of The State, or even worse Heroic Juggernaught to herald in a new era?

    Seriously 40 odd years of Marvel history and who knows how many characters and it takes over 8 months to get some new story events?

    P.S. Ultron and Antman do not count as they were for movie releases and are not in rotation.
    You should really read the first post to see how to get 5*s.
  • Stax the Foyer
    Stax the Foyer Posts: 941 Critical Contributor
    edited September 2015
    TLCstormz wrote:
    PVP THIS........PVP THAT. 1300 THIS.........1300 THAT. Gosh that gets old.

    Why is no one talking about how **** this will be for 2 > 3 Transitioners or even stagnant 3* players who CANNOT make a dent in PvP, because they flounder with their 100 leveled rosters, for the sake of keeping their PvE enemies manageable?

    Ice, what is being done for THEM? If the only option / suggestion / plan / means that you all have concocted is "lol, hit the double progression, cuz people do it all the time", that sounds extremely lackluster...........

    EDIT: Picture removed as it was drastically misconstrued. Der_Lex made the point I was trying to make on the next page, but with words instead of a picture.
  • rawfsu
    rawfsu Posts: 291 Mover and Shaker
    I was actually thinking its time to quit, BUT I can't argue with the plan for 5*'s. I think D3 really took a careful approach in introducing such powerful characters by essentially blocking out the whales from buying their way to the top. They also have provided ample opportunity for the little guy to earn Legendary Tokens and a chance at a 5*, even if the percentage is small. Hey 5% is better than 0.3%, and that's right at the get go! I'll probably only be able to earn one every five days in DDQ, but it's something! I'll take what I can get! Worse case scenario, I earn more covers for my 4*'s, which need ALL the help they can get!
  • Knee jerk response is - cool. Reality? Unless there is a fundamental change in how the game is administered this new 5 * character will serve to further stack the deck for the comparably small number of players who spend a bunch of money on the game and / or are lucky enough to be part of a high end alliance. Absent a fundamental change in matchmaking, I fully expect to get squashed by a team featuring an upgraded 5 star silver surfer unfairly, just as I experience many **** whoopings by teams stacked with upgraded 4 star characters.

    Call a spade a spade. No matter how "rare" this character is, he'll be available to the anointed few for free, who will be able to upgrade him immediately, allowing them to rule with an iron fist more than they already do.
  • Linkster79
    Linkster79 Posts: 1,037 Chairperson of the Boards
    ShionSinX wrote:
    Linkster79 wrote:
    Okay so a new tier level? Doesn't interest me that much as I am not anywhere near that stage yet but the real question is will there be any new story to accompany the release or will it just be another bloody Enemy Of The State, or even worse Heroic Juggernaught to herald in a new era?

    Seriously 40 odd years of Marvel history and who knows how many characters and it takes over 8 months to get some new story events?

    P.S. Ultron and Antman do not count as they were for movie releases and are not in rotation.
    You should really read the first post to see how to get 5*s.

    I did read it and watch the video. I didn't see or hear anything about any new story events. I dunno maybe I am missing it somewhere. I see legendary tokens as progression rewards, Deadpools Daily and as part of a 40 pack but no news on new story events for the release. Is there a new story to accompany Silver Surfers release?
  • Silver Surfer is my favorite Marvel character, so I am elated over his inclusion in MPQ.

    That said, as someone on the bottom end of the spectrum, the continued tweaks to the top end are disheartening. I am fortunate enough to be able to play frequently enough, and am currently slogging (trudging? wallowing? stumbling?) my way to a single cover-maxed 3-star. Right now, I use 2-star characters for 90% of the matches I play.

    My goal right now is to get as many 3-star covers as possible, without dropping the price of an Xbox game for a chance at a single needed cover. I get one cover on average every ~4 days from progression rewards in PVE (barring the gauntlet it seems), I do Deadpool's TBE and get 2 tacos daily, I get as many heroic tokens as possible through progression in PVP and placement in PVE, I hit the 10-pack Season progression reward, get three out of the four 3* covers from the Simulator, and I play every PVP event and aim for a top-100 finish when I roll a lucky bracket.

    On the surface, this seems like a pretty varied system for beginners. Build your 2*s, get lucky and get heroic tokens that yield gold covers, spend $$$ on slots, get lucky some more, and get one guaranteed (if you previously got lucky) cover per day. The problem is, outside of this, I'm competing against people who have been playing much longer and have been much luckier than myself (my 3-star conversion rate has been 9% on heroic+ tokens).

    It seems like the more that's added to the top end, the worse the odds get for the bottom end, and the more players compete to shove the beginners out of any bracket that gives a 3-star cover. I have all 40 3-stars with at least one cover, and most of the ones I have decently (halfway+) covered are considered terrible. The game is structured so it actually hurts you to level up without knowing what you're doing. To date, I haven't seen a single patch balancing crummy characters (rag, qs, iw, 2*bullseye, bagman, etc) since I started playing in earnest, although I do recognize it happened in the past. To me, the existence of characters that can't compete just worsens the odds and dilutes the pool. Furthermore, the game has actually "punished" me for doing well and/or getting lucky, giving me a 4* cover I won't be able to use for years. Yeah, I'm told those 2 Elektra covers are great to have, but they don't help me compete right now.

    I would love to get a glimpse into the numbers behind this game. I'd like to see where the power curve really is, what the truly average player is working with, how much the whales pay, etc. I can't imagine anyone but the top 1% is seriously fighting over 4-star covers, and now 5-star covers. I'm certainly not asking for a handout, but when the majority of the current 4-star playerbase was trudging through the 3-star transition, they weren't competing against players 2-3 tiers higher than them, begging for table scraps that the top end doesn't eat. I know I have no shot at 3* placement awards competing against fleshed out 3* rosters, much less 4* and 5*. Let me compete against my own weight class.

    TLDR: If the goal moving forward is to continually add to the top-end, the barrier to entry will continue to grow. Further consideration to insulating or segregating players at the bottom and middle would be welcomed.
  • 20three
    20three Posts: 371
    Are things like this allowed on the board? Obnoxious, angry critiques over a plan that has already been implemented by people who work hard on giving us new content by the fans who will continue to play the game regardless and don't support it by never buying the unfairly priced items (the only way to support the game financially)?

    Regardless, this 5 star announcement sickens me for a variety of reasons. I just don't understand the reason behind it, an absurdly overpowered character with an insane amount of HP and attack power is not something this game needed. Balance has always been an issue in this game, so what do you do to address that? Make the game even more unbalanced! Brilliant! The gap between 4 star and 3 star was at the very least tolerable, but this 5 star gap of power is beyond overkill. I'm sorry, but I just don't find the fun that's going to come from being obliterated by a maxed out silver surfer to be my cup of tea. What is the reason behind this? Was there really that much of an outcry and demand over having stronger characters? Weren't most people satisfied at the power of 4 stars and that would be enough? I don't understand.

    Is this a cry for more money? I hate the way money can be spent on this game. I do not have a degree in business, I do not claim to understand business on a professional level, but this f2play nonsense is just not a great plan imo. I'd honestly rather just pay for the game, one cost up front, that's it, or put ads in, I don't care. I'd rather be annoyed by ads than being pummeled by godtier 5 stars from people who put down dough to get them. The way I see it is, all the hard work I've put into this game the last 150 days, trying to get 3 stars powerful, and succeeding, has been thrown out the window entirely. It's like they're saying "Screw you, thanks for playing, but not really because there's this now." And I guess they think it will work because idiots out there could be mesmerized and awe-stricken by such a powerful character that they have to have, I mean even one 5 star cover can be enough to turn a garbage roster into gold. So to me, this feels like a lazy scheme, a very lazy one.

    Instead of addressing the numerous problems that would actually require effort to fix, like balance issues or ISO cost, or the laughably unfair prices of ISO and HP in the store, it's just easier to add a new character and tier so all those problems can be overshadowed by this one.

    Honestly, I feel like this game has become an addiction in my life. It's not bad to the point where I'm ever spending money on it, but I do play it more often than I like. So maybe it's a good thing that when my day starts getting ruined by Silver Surfer penetrations I become so fed up that I just delete the game. Who knows? In my opinion, I just don't see this being a useful and fun feature for anyone other then the addicts who are worse off than me and pay to win and those that are lucky sons of guns. I guess we'll find out pretty soon.