A Call to End Competitive PVE Once and For All

simonsez

mjh wrote:

whether you hate Gauntlet or not. Whether Ultron is good or not are both irrelevant. They are true PVE in every sense of the word.

It's no more irrelevant than your dislike of competition. And it's been said already, but "PvE" is an invention of this forum. Nowhere in the game does that terminology exist. So don't waste your time in a semantic argument of what "PvP" means or what "PvE" is supposed to mean, because we made up those terms, not the devs.

d0nk3y

simonsez wrote:

And it's been said already, but "PvE" is an invention of this forum. Nowhere in the game does that terminology exist. So don't waste your time in a semantic argument of what "PvP" means or what "PvE" is supposed to mean, because we made up those terms, not the devs.

You cannot be that obtuse. PvE is industry standard terminology referring to the player versus the environment and dates back at least a decade, spanning multiple established and defunct game platforms. What makes this game so frustrating in its implementation of PvE is the fact that a bad board can determine the difference between ranking top 10 and top 50 - a ranking that shouldn't even exist to begin with. Let me hit my nodes, pummel the requisite DA opponents, collect my winnings and move on - if I want to hit the individual nodes again to try to collect the extra node rewards, more power to me... but don't force me to do it in order to maintain a bogus ranking against others who don't have the same real-world requirements I do.

Lloyd Christmas

babinro wrote:

I guess I'll be the standout who wants them to stay.

Competition is what gives this game such great replay value and lasting appeal even when it's frustrating. PvE is my least favorite mode of competitive play but it's still something that adds variety to the game and motivates me to play daily.

Tie the bulk of cover rewards to progression and get rid of the frustrating 20 ISO issue and you've gone a long way to making things more enjoyable without removing the competitive motivation from the experience.

By all means add more non-competitive events to this game but don't wipe out a game play mode to do it.

For me it's not a matter of PvE being competitive, it's the current format in which I have to schedule my life around 8 hours refreshes plus grinding the end of subs. In PvP you can play when it's convenient for you and still be very competitive. Similarly in a true PvE you can play when it is convenient and still reach top progression.

Ultimately this is a game, and games should be fun as well as competitive. The problem with the current Pve format we have is that it's not a game, it's a lifestyle choice.

Dauthi

d0nk3y wrote:

simonsez wrote:

And it's been said already, but "PvE" is an invention of this forum. Nowhere in the game does that terminology exist. So don't waste your time in a semantic argument of what "PvP" means or what "PvE" is supposed to mean, because we made up those terms, not the devs.

You cannot be that obtuse. PvE is industry standard terminology referring to the player versus the environment and dates back at least a decade, spanning multiple established and defunct game platforms. What makes this game so frustrating in its implementation of PvE is the fact that a bad board can determine the difference between ranking top 10 and top 50 - a ranking that shouldn't even exist to begin with. Let me hit my nodes, pummel the requisite DA opponents, collect my winnings and move on - if I want to hit the individual nodes again to try to collect the extra node rewards, more power to me... but don't force me to do it in order to maintain a bogus ranking against others who don't have the same real-world requirements I do.

I think what he means is that the game refers to it as "Story," as signified on the tab. The game has never referred to it as PvE (unless I completely missed it), we the players gave it that name. So, "Story" can be whatever the developers feel like.

Likely this happened because "Versus" is clearly versus players, so PvP. Typically in games, the other mode would be PvE, so that is what stuck.

mjh

simonsez wrote:

And it's been said already, but "PvE" is an invention of this forum. Nowhere in the game does that terminology exist. So don't waste your time in a semantic argument of what "PvP" means or what "PvE" is supposed to mean, because we made up those terms, not the devs.

This is a great point that I missed. They do specifically call it "Story".

The fact remains that by far and large the majority of players do not like the competitive nature of "Story" mode. It prohibits many people from playing, it makes for a bad gaming experience. Story mode as it is now comes down to who has more time off work (or doesn't work) and more free time at home (i.e. no family obligations, etc) which is not what a game should be based on.

They need to take a long hard look at that and stop handicapping their player base on what their real life is like outside of MPQ.

Unknown

So, if you don't have time to top 10, what makes you think you will have the time to hit the higher PVE progressions? I would totally prefer to have all rewards progression rewards, but I think that would also make me play more. If you have a family and a job and are stretched for time as it is, you probably won't have the time to get the progression rewards anyway and then you will want them to be reduced so you have a higher chance to get them. Vicious cycle!

Arphaxad

simonsez wrote:

Bishop wrote:

Why does it need to be a slugfest?

They've decided that they want to give n covers to x% of the people. Until they change what they think x is, it's going to have to be painful. How can you limit prize distribution without incurring pain? They changed their "x" for PvP, because it's clear that way, way more people are hitting 1k nowadays. They recently changed their "x" for 4* PvE rank awards, because now they're in line with 3* PvE. So it's not as if they never adjust it to make it easier on us and give out more stuff. That's where the argument should be focused. And since, as it is, the progression schedule for PvE is AWFUL (top players triple or quadruple the top level), there is a ton of room at the top for them to add more and better progression rewards. And it's something that they're far more like to do, rather than make PvE completely non-competitive. You guys need to pick your battles better. Asking them to expand the progression reward schedule is way more winnable than asking them to get rid of rank awards.

Perfectly said. I hate playing PvP, and love the way PvE is set up. If you don't like it, don't play it. But I would admit that PvE could be better and expanding the progression reward list is a great idea. Just because you don't like something don't try to get rid of it because there are others that do like it. Suggest ways to make it better.

slidecage

they turn PVE into pure gaunlet or ant man game will be dead within 6 months. . These are the people who take all the rewards on PVP now thinking they should be able to take all of the rewards in PVE

If you dont like PVE then stick to playing PVP... dont like griding then stick to PVP

i cant make it past 600 pts in PVP therefore i think the 4 star should be lowered to 300 pts in PVP so everyone gets it... Sick of people crying saying they have to grind in PVE... Dont like it dont play it simple as that.

they only need to make a few changes

Maybe top 100 in each bracket get 25 HP Instead of only top 50 get 50 now
Increase the rewards past the last stage even if its ISO

there is nothing wrong with PVE dont like it DONT PLAY IT and those who go if we dont play it we will fall behind. Fall behind on what you dont need any COvers to play PVP now they are given out loans of all of them

Unknown

I heartily enjoy competitive story mode and do understand that complainers will be more vocal than those who enjoy the system.

If you have a general mindset of "I want those rewards, but don't want to compete against other people to get it," that's fine, and the forum doesn't even mind the occasional rant against it. It's annoying to get pushed out of top 10, top 25, 100, etc at the last minute.

Ending 'competitive PVE' won't solve these problems, and it isn't even practical. 1/3 of the game is based around these types of events. Gauntlet is fine for prizes, but sucks in multiple respects, the main 2 being:
- Once you're done, there's nothing to do.
- If you get stuck on a node, you're stuck for a week.

I like that they've been throwing out multiple PVEs at a time as they have more content. Allows you to skip one or the other, or try both at the same time if you're ambitious. Clearly the crazies who want to top 5 both will complain, but those are the crazies.

JVReal

There has always been competition for placement in single player environments where other people play the same single player environment. Even in the old Arcades, you had the scoreboard where you had the top 10 scores listed. You still played the game, but you either played it for fun... or you played it to put your initials in the top 10 spot for everyone who plays that game to see.

It hasn't changed.

Story Mode, seems to me to be plagued by an extremely tight reward system. Mediocre cover given at top progression, trivial sub rewards, and extremely tight top 100 release of covers, and in brackets of 1000 people.

People feel the need to grind because too many people are going for too few rewards. This is the issue. It isn't that it's competitive... it's that it feels like you need to be overly competitive to even get the 100th spot, because the rewards past that it isn't worth it.

Fix what drives the feeling of need for extreme competition. They can do multiple things. Reduce bracket sizes to 500. This automatically doubles the amount of rewards, and halves the number of people driving up the scores for the top 100. In my opinion, this alone will reduce the grindy feeling because the pressure will be off, you will likely have more brackets going, more people joining when they can without feeling they can never catch up, and will likely prevent the latest trend of half the players waiting for the last day for a fresh bracket then grinding non-stop for top placement.

In the Hulk Story Event, I couldn't play the first couple of days of the event because of a family vacation. After that, there was 5 days left I could play, but with a bracket sitting only halfway full, catching up was hopeless... so I waited for a fresh bracket... any time slice. I finally joined a fresh bracket with 1 day 4 hours left (4 days where I was able to play, but felt like I couldn't play because there was no incentive as top 100 would not be possible). It was a different slice than I normally join, so I forgot the sub refreshed at around 3 am. I played through before bed, then went to sleep and in the morning realized it was a new sub and I missed the first play through. Missing that one cycle put me to where I couldn't catch up to even top 100, and I finished around 150. It was because so many people were waiting for a fresh bracket, and felt they had to grind for their chance at the limited rewards, and that kind of grind for 7 days is ridiculous, so they waited for a fresh bracket. Smaller brackets would have had these guys playing days earlier.

Limit Story Events to 5 days maximum.

Just a couple of ideas. They could expand the tiers as well, but I think changing bracket sizes will have the biggest impact.

Unknown

I typed a really long reply but took so long to type I got logged out of the forum and lost my reply! After reading this thread I have started to agree with some of the people saying that the competitive aspect is not the problem, but I'm looking at it a different way.

Basically I was saying for a week long event, you realistically need to play about 3 hours a day to have a good shot at getting:
- 1 guaranteed for progression
- 2 or 3 probable for placement
- 8 event tokens (1 for progression, 7 for daily placement) which should on average translate to maybe 2
So that's 21 hours investment for maybe an average of 5

On the other hand, 2 hours a day probably may get you the progression and an event token for progression. You might be lucky and get an event token or two for daily placement but you'll usually be looking at just one for 14 hours of playtime invested.

Compare this to DDQ where you can get a guaranteed every 45 minutes to an hour of playing (but you can only play once a day) and you can see why the story mode gets some vocal haters.

Point being, people who play more than 1 hour a day (DDQ) and less than 4 hours (competitive story + DDQ) are being penalised by having a really bad playtime invested to rewards ratio.

People who would happily play 2 hours a day need an option to do so without detracting from incentives to pay D3. How about spending HP or ISO on an accelerated refresh of DDQ? Not just refreshing the vault, refreshing the nodes themselves with associated rewards? Or a double or nothing option on The Big Enchilada: bet hero points to add an extra couple of waves and give a chance of a 4* reward instead of the 3*?

Unknown

well i like non-competitive pve/story idea but i never like gauntlet(just like daibar stated), maybe pve supposedly more like DDQ whether: progression reward, difficulty, non-replayable, no 0/4 reward(fixed reward and refreshed per day), no boosted hero no essntial node. i doubt that the game will be dead because of non-competitive story.

Various38

I like the idea of a true "story mode" being introduced into the game. I think that the current PVE structure should not go away, but the progression prizes need to be reworked. Also, I think that it needs a home of it's own. It shouldn't be lumped in with the story since it is not a true one player experience. A one player experience/story to me signifies that the game has a mode that I can play at my own pace while gaining experience and awards without competition from others to rank. The PVE rewards are probably what need the most love since there are Noob brackets and Vet brackets. I don't think everyone should be playing for the same prize given the competition varies from bracket to bracket. Now, there was a suggestion for having a prize pool which would make a lot of sense. Instead of having progression, maybe have the prizes doled out due to how many points you obtain. I had to go back to when I was just starting into PVE and actually placed first for the 4 star reward. That gave a sense of false hope seeing how I won that after my first month and still have yet to reach 4 covers for that rewarded character. It's crazy when you get thrown into the Vet brackets and realize that your team is worth garbage. The difficulty slider was way off in deciding that I was ready for the next level and it needs to be more gradual. I know I'm all over the place, but the main points that stick out to me are that PVE needs it's own home, Story needs to have better pacing, there should be no competition in the story mode, PVE prizes need to be reworked to compensate grinders, and all PVE events should have a standard length.

I could also argue that PVE needs fixed sub lengths but are only playable for 24 hours. That would allow the timers to be kept, and let the grinders go crazy trying to hit the placements. If you grind it like crazy, then it's not the game's fault you killed your free time because you had to have every reward presented. I don't really like the time slices from the standpoint that some can get a fresh slice and win everything they want with no effort because there were only 100 people in the bracket. I just want the rewards to match the amount of time you put into the game. If you have anything to add or improve from this, please let it be known so I can maybe see it from a different perspective.

Enoc99

Just add 4* to the progressions.

Then I won't care what place I take, I'm just going to work for the 4* progression and walk away happy.

Much like PvP right now...

Unknown

babinro wrote:

I guess I'll be the standout who wants them to stay.

Competition is what gives this game such great replay value and lasting appeal even when it's frustrating. PvE is my least favorite mode of competitive play but it's still something that adds variety to the game and motivates me to play daily.

Tie the bulk of cover rewards to progression and get rid of the frustrating 20 ISO issue and you've gone a long way to making things more enjoyable without removing the competitive motivation from the experience.
By all means add more non-competitive events to this game but don't wipe out a game play mode to do it.

Was going to upvote, but I only agree with the above-bolded/colored portion, which I agree with SUBSTANTIALLY, so a quote it is.

Personally, since they've already got a PvP portion, appropriately labeled "PvP," it would be nice to see the "second, inappropriately labeled PvP portion" go away, but barring that, yeah, at least making the "other PvP" feel a bit less so would be a step forward. They wouldn't need to "wipe out a gameplay mode," they'd simply need to make one of the existing gameplay modes play the way it is currently incorrectly described, as a PvE mode.

DBC

Unknown

Honestly all I really need right now is more progression awards and better placement awards.

Put hp after the last 3* cover and I'll feel less empty grinding for 20-40k extra to get a decent placement. Add in a 4* cover and a chunk of ISO and the vets will be happy. Make 7-day event placement awards better and I won't mind not placing top 100 as much.

It's annoying to try to grind for hp for one good character and ending up with 2-5 new characters by the time I get one roster slot. Add in the almost requisite slots for essential characters and my roster is never empty.

mjh

JVReal wrote:

Fix what drives the feeling of need for extreme competition. They can do multiple things. Reduce bracket sizes to 500. This automatically doubles the amount of rewards, and halves the number of people driving up the scores for the top 100. In my opinion, this alone will reduce the grindy feeling because the pressure will be off, you will likely have more brackets going, more people joining when they can without feeling they can never catch up, and will likely prevent the latest trend of half the players waiting for the last day for a fresh bracket then grinding non-stop for top placement.

Wow, fantastic solution. This would be the biggest improvement to the game since Deadpool's Daily Quest.

Malcrof

Listen to Simonsez, he is wize.

orionpeace

Scroll up dude.

He posted that in THIS thread.

Malcrof

orionpeace wrote:

Scroll up dude.

He posted that in THIS thread.

blah, too many threads going on pretty much the same thing.. i give up trying to keep up lol.. will edit my post