Make PVE rewards more fair

Xenoberyll

I'm glad i won my Jean Covers after a hard 7 day grind but some things are really demoralizing and draining:
- one slip and you're out of reach to the top 2 rewards making the 4-5 hours a day you need to spend to win the event in a hard bracket feel wasted
- other people win the same or better rank with a fraction of the time you spent and a fraction of your score by playing timeslices and brackets to their advantage

why not put all personal rewards on the progression rewards list? I'm sure there's a balance in score needed so not everybody will get all the covers but reachable enough if you're playing real hard. That way the people within X% of the perfect score will win what they deserve and people who play more casual can still get a cover or two but not more than the people who are fighting much harder.

I like the alliance rewards top 100 but personal rewards being progressive would bring back a lot of motivation for playing PVE.

Cartoon Face

Completely agree with you. I attempted this but quickly gave up due to the number of players with maxed out rosters slamming the points. It's hard enough juggling a job and having enough spare time to gain some points without having to finish work then spend the night on MPQ playing catch up to then log in the next day and be smashed out of existence again. Even if they just put one cover in the player rewards it would make events worth playing for. Don't get me wrong I love MPQ but I am not sitting through a 7 day event for a chance at 4* and a guaranteed 3*. Would have been nice if they had a story event like they did with Ant-man, but I assume that was because the movie was released?

BillyBobJoe

I stopped playing PVE after Starlord was the new character release. PVE just isn't fun. Having to time your day to hit the refreshes, finding 30-45 min to clear, and enough time at the end of the sub to grind. Not to mention it's probably against 300 lvl Juggs & Daken that just spam scaled abilities. No thanks. I only causally play PVE to mine ISO.

Now...on the other hand, props to the devs for making the Gauntlet final reward a 4*! A step in the right direction! Ultron event? Yay! Although it still feels like a supreme grind, its a team effort and the Hulkbuster covers at the end were fantastic.

Unfortunately the devs took a step backwards by offering Captain Marvel covers at the last Ultron event. That's a lot of beating up on Ultron Sentries for a 3*. Our alliance just grinded that for the progression award, iso, and Ultron pack tokens. (Ultron token drops are awesome, fyi)

I've been playing Final Fantasy Record Keeper more often now (thanks, shield cooldowns!) MPQ rewards players based on player competition, FFRK rewards players based on progression. It would be nice if the rewards in PVE MPQ were more focused on the solo experience rather than the competitive experience.

P.S. - on a side note: please stop offering critical boosts as node rewards.

firethorne

I've said it dozens of times, and I'll say it again. Most PvE isn't PvE. There are two kinds of PvP in this game.

1. Point race against other players fighting ai controlled teams selected by other players.

2. Point race against other players fighting ai controlled teams selected by D3.

We need more on group 3, which is hard battles, but no competition with other players, like Gauntlet.

I started the hunt for Jean and was instantly thousands of points behind. It is demoralizing. This is a game, not an 80 hour per week job. The game just isn't fun anymore.

Unknown

I completely agree. I've been a member of the late join lottery PVE slacker camp ever since the Gamora release event. I believe this was even before time shards and concurrently filling brackets existed, so it cake to game the system. i played about 15 minutes and won all of her covers. After that experience, i gladly take the gamble and join the latest possible time that i can with a confirmed fresh bracket.

There is risk involved in this strategy, sometimes you get placed in an old bracket and miss out on the new character completely. But when it works, it is pure magic, because you don't have to slog through 4 or 7 days of tedious torturous grinding for even a chance at the new character. i'm a little better than 50/50 employing this method and i wouldn't change it for anyting.

My roster has not suffered at all when i do miss out on a character. The only covers i am missing are Ant Man Yellow and Thing yellow.

With all that said, i don't think that it is fair to the folks that join on day one and i would be completely in support of a progression based PVE model. It would level the playing field for everyone and it would probably make a lot of people's lives a lot less stressful.

easy...marc

Bowgentle

Back in the olden days, when we still had 3* releases (some old folks might remember those) it used to be that one cover of the new character would be the top progression reward in the next PVE.

That gave people who sat out the release PVE a chance at the new character without the soul destroying grind.
They really need to do that for 4*s too.

In general: it's insane that you need 4*s for top-level PVP, yet there is no way to cover a 4* in a reasonable time frame without playing PVE. That doesn't make any sense.

4*s aren't rare anymore, the reward structure needs a severe overhaul.
Introduce PVPs where you get all 3 colours of a 4* for placement. And multiply the ISO payouts in these PVPs by 5.
And kill MMR while you're at it, too. These are elite prizes for the elite players.
No, transitioners don't need 4* covers when they have boosted 3* characters.

That would solve the PVE problem too. Most of us won't bother with that second job-like time commitment if there are other ways to cover things.

TxMoose

as one who takes advantage of said brackets/slices, I agree it needs to be progression based with all the event placement rewards inserted after the current progression level. until they change it, we work with what we have.

simonsez

Xenoberyll wrote:

- one slip and you're out of reach to the top 2 rewards making the 4-5 hours a day you need to spend to win the event in a hard bracket feel wasted

why not put all personal rewards on the progression rewards list?

What are you really asking for? Do you want the top 2 rewards converted to a progression reward that is set so high that one slip means you're out of reach anyway, or do you want them to give "top 2" rewards to a much greater percentage of people?

GrumpySmurf1002

Bowgentle wrote:

Introduce PVPs where you get all 3 colours of a 4* for placement. And multiply the ISO payouts in these PVPs by 5.
And kill MMR while you're at it, too. These are elite prizes for the elite players.
No, transitioners don't need 4* covers when they have boosted 3* characters.

I'm not opposed to this idea, but Devs said way back when that they worry about flooding the Iso market and trivializing the early stages of the game.

So I have a condition to add to the above. 100HP (or 150) buy-in. The HP stingy early stages can't afford to do it, and the vets won't think twice about it.

They did these way back when, and IIRC the prizes were tokens. Probably also why they stopped running them, because a token is not a prize. 2.5 day, 25k ISO + 4 4* covers 1st prize would be a different animal, and probably very popular.

GrumpySmurf1002

simonsez wrote:

Xenoberyll wrote:

- one slip and you're out of reach to the top 2 rewards making the 4-5 hours a day you need to spend to win the event in a hard bracket feel wasted

why not put all personal rewards on the progression rewards list?

What are you really asking for? Do you want the top 2 rewards converted to a progression reward that is set so high that one slip means you're out of reach anyway, or do you want them to give "top 2" rewards to a much greater percentage of people?

Current system gives top 2 rewards to scores like 150k...150k....100k...100k....50k.....10k (late bracket). Probably 250 players or so (125 brackets)

Progression could still put you at 250 players, but now the 149k player who made a marginal error in bracket one isn't getting fewer covers than the guy who joined with an hour left. And it makes the work more commensurate with rewards.

It's not about setting a progression at 50k and giving everyone three covers. It's about rewarding all the people in the hardest bracket, rather than having people bust their **** for a week, lose to 10 guys who busted a little harder, and watching someone who played half an hour get more covers. That's demoralizing, and makes one never want to bother with PvE.

spghttihead

Totally agree with changing the structure. I didn't want to attempt the grind so I joined 30 min before the end and was in a bracket with less than 100 people. A Jean cover for no work, uncool for those that worked for it. Change to progression and I'll actually play!

simonsez

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

It's about rewarding all the people in the hardest bracket, rather than having people bust their **** for a week, lose to 10 guys who busted a little harder, and watching someone who played half an hour get more covers.

Yes, I agree, bracket-shopping and putting in minimal effort to get the same rewards sucks, and I'm not a fan of that either; but that's not what I was asking about. If we're just talking about people who enter and play the full PvE normally, they'd either have to set the progression rewards so that more people get the "top2 equivalent" award, or we're STILL in a situation where "one slip, and you don't get it". Which is why when people argue that they want a shift from placement rewards to progressions, they're really saying they want more rewards given out, otherwise, it wouldn't make any difference. If Hulk PvE had no rank awards, and gave 4 covers for a score of 160k, why would that be any different? You'd still need to hit every clear and do a 3.5 hour grind every night to hit that score. You're not going to end up playing any less.

Colognoisseur

simonsez wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

It's about rewarding all the people in the hardest bracket, rather than having people bust their **** for a week, lose to 10 guys who busted a little harder, and watching someone who played half an hour get more covers.

Yes, I agree, bracket-shopping and putting in minimal effort to get the same rewards sucks, and I'm not a fan of that either; but that's not what I was asking about. If we're just talking about people who enter and play the full PvE normally, they'd either have to set the progression rewards so that more people get the "top2 equivalent" award, or we're STILL in a situation where "one slip, and you don't get it". Which is why when people argue that they want a shift from placement rewards to progressions, they're really saying they want more rewards given out, otherwise, it wouldn't make any difference. If Hulk PvE had no rank awards, and gave 4 covers for a score of 160k, why would that be any different? You'd still need to hit every clear and do a 3.5 hour grind every night to hit that score. You're not going to end up playing any less.

I agree you're not playing less but you could time things a little more differently. Now I do my clear with 8h to go in a sub. I then have to come back at around three hours from the end to maximize my score so as to keep ahead of my competition.

If it was changed to very hard to hit progression awards I would still have to do the grind but I could shift it a few hours so that it was convenient instead of absolutely having to do it in the final three hours of the sub.

At least for me that would be an improvement .

GrumpySmurf1002

simonsez wrote:

If we're just talking about people who enter and play the full PvE normally, they'd either have to set the progression rewards so that more people get the "top2 equivalent" award, or we're STILL in a situation where "one slip, and you don't get it". Which is why when people argue that they want a shift from placement rewards to progressions, they're really saying they want more rewards given out, otherwise, it wouldn't make any difference. If Hulk PvE had no rank awards, and gave 4 covers for a score of 160k, why would that be any different? You'd still need to hit every clear and do a 3.5 hour grind every night to hit that score. You're not going to end up playing any less.

As I'm reading this particular one, it's not about the effort. that's a separate animal. That's more of the argument that it should be Gauntlet style than Progression based. Somewhat overlapping concepts, but different in nature. This is about playing that much and ending up 3rd (or 11th) because 2 (or 10) other guys played just a fraction better.

Now I get what you're saying about slipping, but the progression doesn't have to be *that* hard to still limit the people achieving the reward. It's not like there are people busting ****, playing optimal, and missing top 100. Maybe it goes up from 250 people to 400 who can achieve the reward, but with the rate at which 4* are being released, that's not the worst thing to happen.

And at least then effort would match rewards, instead of rewards being tied to luck of the draw.

Eichen

Right now every PvE has a 3*reward at the end. I think that there should be one more progressive reward at the end for a 4* cover but it should be way out there so you still have to work for it but don't get penalized if you are in a bad slice. The 4* should take double what the 3* took with nothing in between the 3* and 4*. To get the Psylock progressive cover in the last Hulk even you had to score 37000; there should be one more progressive reward (Jean) at 76000. So you have to work twice as hard to get that 4* cover than the 3* cover. Also the Progressive 4* should be a different color than the Top 21-100 cover so that people would have 2 different colors instead of 2 of the same color.

More people having multiple "rare" 48 colors rather than 2 in a single color would increase the potential for people to spend more HP to upgrade their roster. Meaning you make more money. (Just dangling it out there because while it is a game for us it is a business for them so they have to have a good reason to make changes. Increased profits are the ultimate cause for changes in a business.)

SnowcaTT

PVE is ridiculous, which is why I stopped running it six months ago.

These events should be like DDQ, which everyone likes -

-NO SCALING-. Not global, not local. This is "fair" to everyone, best rosters will get best results.

-NOT COMPETETIVE-. Put all rewards on progression, perhaps one cover low enough that -any- player can get it with a little work, and the next ones up where you want only -some- players to get (those with deeper/stronger rosters - you know, those who can actually get more covers and will use/need these more quickly). This is "fair" to everyone, all rosters can get something - but only if they actually play the event for awhile! No one can earn anything if they join in the last hour!

-NOT TIME SENSITIVE-. By doing #1 and #2, you now can have a global bracket - no need to have people refresh at certain times. Shoot, you could make purely local brackets (refreshes happen based on when you join alone). This is "fair" to everyone - everyone chooses their own join/play time!


Added benefit: this method is incredibly easy for devs to calculate for. You set event node points, see how many runs/clears you need to get those points, and set the rewards in progression however you want. You don't have to guess and make the progressions incredibly low or high. You don't have to guess on who will be able to do what, since you've gotten rid of scaling.

Malcrof

SnowcaTT wrote:

PVE is ridiculous, which is why I stopped running it six months ago.

These events should be like DDQ, which everyone likes -

-NO SCALING-. Not global, not local. This is "fair" to everyone, best rosters will get best results.

-NOT COMPETETIVE-. Put all rewards on progression, perhaps one cover low enough that -any- player can get it with a little work, and the next ones up where you want only -some- players to get (those with deeper/stronger rosters - you know, those who can actually get more covers and will use/need these more quickly). This is "fair" to everyone, all rosters can get something - but only if they actually play the event for awhile! No one can earn anything if they join in the last hour!

-NOT TIME SENSITIVE-. By doing #1 and #2, you now can have a global bracket - no need to have people refresh at certain times. Shoot, you could make purely local brackets (refreshes happen based on when you join alone). This is "fair" to everyone - everyone chooses their own join/play time!


Added benefit: this method is incredibly easy for devs to calculate for. You set event node points, see how many runs/clears you need to get those points, and set the rewards in progression however you want. You don't have to guess and make the progressions incredibly low or high. You don't have to guess on who will be able to do what, since you've gotten rid of scaling.

I want to add to this.

Multiple PVE's running concurrently. 4 day events at max, probably 3 day would work the best. 3 events are put up, check out rewards and make your choice. Once you choose, that is your event until it is time to choose again. The others disappear. This way, people can go for rewards they need to build their rosters.

For new character releases.. this is where you do a 7 day, you can choose which you want (EoTS, Iso8, Gauntlet,Hulk, etc..) each with a different 3* progression, so , while you grind like mad for that new release, you can maybe snag a cover you have been missing, on your way to those 4* progression covers.

Alliances would work together, add an alliance progression to the overall 3 day PVE, or 7 day pve.. all points from whichever PVE your alliancemates are in, are added to the alliance total, like in the seasons. Alliance progression is where the extra cover/iso/hp can be, add in small trinkets along the way.

simonsez

Colognoisseur wrote:

If it was changed to very hard to hit progression awards I would still have to do the grind but I could shift it a few hours so that it was convenient

Or maybe not. Who's to say they couldn't and wouldn't tune the scores such that the points you're losing by time-shifting the grind means you fall short of the top progression?

simonsez

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Maybe it goes up from 250 people to 400 who can achieve the reward, but with the rate at which 4* are being released, that's not the worst thing to happen.

I don't necessarily disagree. I just think people need to be mindful that even if they get what they wish for, the reward distribution %s would have to be adjusted as well, in order for their to be any ultimate difference from a player's perspective.

shriekingwillow

I'm a grinder and a top 10 finisher and I agree that the PvE rewards should all be progression based, not placement based. Even the alliance PvE prizes should be progression based, total alliance points determines your reward. This already exists in the Ultron event, and should be the nature of all PvE events. PvE as it is now is just PvP with a different hat on.

Make the effort match the rewards.

Wishful thinking: A 4* progression reward in PvE that would be as difficult to reach as the 1000 point PvP mark sure would also be nice.

GurlBYE

simonsez wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Maybe it goes up from 250 people to 400 who can achieve the reward, but with the rate at which 4* are being released, that's not the worst thing to happen.

I don't necessarily disagree. I just think people need to be mindful that even if they get what they wish for, the reward distribution %s would have to be adjusted as well, in order for their to be any ultimate difference from a player's perspective.

So what do you suggest?


I'm entirely in for more people getting rewards of some sort.

The current way still operates as if a single 4 star fully covered is endgame. And that seems pretty far from the truth. The game could survive a higher percentage of people getting awarded 1 of each color for an introductory event. In fact it gives more incentive for people to spend money sooner.

Thinking outside the current state of the game, and the likely happening of multiple 4 stars being in the second half of this year (June and July alone had 3) it may be time to shift the percentage of ultra elusive mega elite 4 star land down a bit.