Dev Advice Wanted: How not to get hosed in PvP

Heartburn

acescracked wrote:

irwando wrote:

...

I have a family and life outside the game so any option that requires joining a specific alliance, meeting specific timing or other requirements is simply out of the question.

...

Condescending much? Insinuating that players with a strong 3* roster who hit 1k & 1300 do it because they don't have a family or life outside the game is just wrong. All your statement shows is how confused you are by MPQ.

Joining a top 100 alliance requires responding to the alliances searching for players or posting your own request. It's a one time consuming action that makes your game experience way better. Should take all of 30 mins total. Couple of PMs.

If you get to 900, burn one 3hour shield then hop to 1k doesn't seem to me would affect your personal life much. If you take the crazy 30 mins to join a top 100 alliance (top 250 even) you will be HP positive. The hop from 900 to 1k should be 3 matches (really only 2 actually if you q correctly) that take at most 4 mins each. I know...12 mins will keep you from your family.

Anyway, good luck please don't respond since I know you have a family and a life. Responding should be too time consuming and out of the question.

You need to remember this is a game. something to be done in your free time which is variable person to person, day to day. The commitment to place well is often variable as well but generally high. The Hp boosts
and boosting nerfs caused the game to slow down a lot. I feel that I am in the same boat because I also feel stuck in my progress because I can't consistently commit to make gains often starting well in an event only to flop at crucial time or final grinding. I have resigned myself to DDQ and Iso farming for anything extra I play. We are just wondering is this all we can expect to get out of this marathon of a game. Or is it working as intended.

TheOncomingStorm

irwando wrote:

Well, once again. Shield drops. I do one match. Win 36, lose 70. Do another. Win 29, lose 95.

Still waiting for that answer from the devs. How is the above remotely fair? You'll continue not to get a penny from me (and I'm sure many others) until situations like this are fixed. It takes all the fun out of the game by making my best choice to shield and not play.

I'm just curious. If you do not have the best team and/or you are not the best player, how is it unfair that you receive results reflecting reality?

It's pvp by definition it's you vs other players, not you vs the rewards ladder.

One more question, if you had the choice of attacking a maxed and buffed version of the toughest team in pvp or attacking someone else for the same amount of points, who would you attack? Is it possible other players came to that same conclusion?

puppychow

Vhailorx wrote:

I have no idea what the ideal PVP system would be.

Thank you for opening the door. *Takes the mic*

It's real simple. Real PvP should occur in REAL-TIME between players, rather than matches between a player and an AI. THAT is real PvP. The current system we got now is a lousy imitation full of AI exploits.

A match against a real life player on the other end revolutionize pvp. It doesn't have to replace the versus events we have now. I think it could simply be an additional event concurrent w/ Shield, normal versus events, lightning rounds, etc. To speed things up you could set a timer of, say, 10 seconds for players to make a move or else forfeit that turn. Imagine the meta game from that angle as well---the pressure of making a move when a player is down to a single character standing, with low health.

GrumpySmurf1002

puppychow wrote:

Vhailorx wrote:

I have no idea what the ideal PVP system would be.

Thank you for opening the door. *Takes the mic*

It's real simple. Real PvP should occur in REAL-TIME between players, rather than matches between a player and an AI. THAT is real PvP. The current system we got now is a lousy imitation full of AI exploits.

A match against a real life player on the other end revolutionize pvp. It doesn't have to replace the versus events we have now. I think it could simply be an additional event concurrent w/ Shield, normal versus events, lightning rounds, etc. To speed things up you could set a timer of, say, 10 seconds for players to make a move or else forfeit that turn. Imagine the meta game from that angle as well---the pressure of making a move when a player is down to a single character standing, with low health.

Having played enough games with turn-based PvP, I can safely say I would hate this. Playing people in real time is the worst, because people are the worst.

If it's 10 seconds per move, you'll have players drag a match out for an hour just because they can. Assuming you have some kind of lobby, you'll have people refuse to play you. And if they do play you straight up, goodbye to your health packs, because you'll lose at least one character per match guaranteed, because humans aren't dumb.

nwman

We don't need to even play against other humans. Just enable a mode where the ai matches all match 5s. 1 dev talked about how he coded it and played that way and it was hard.


Ai match 5 in pvp only that is, not in story mode. Make an extra off season event and let us test it out there.

So let us try that first and if we don't cry they could then look at real player vs player.

I'd love to try jean against an ai that takes all match 5s

JVReal

aesthetocyst wrote:

No, "live" PvP could not take the place of what we have. The idea crumbles in the face of technical and human realities. Real-time move-based games are slow and for the patient. It should be a pleasurable, challenging experience, but in reality, even Chess is frustrating enough. Imagine live MPQ. The trolling possibilities. Geeeeez.

BUT, it would be a great addition to the game. As a side show. Have both players place a good faith ante (50hp .. or optionally more?). Allow the community to spectate, including the combatant's chat. It would be great for grudge matches. An amplifier to the existing PvP. Could call each other out and duel. Blind lineup and boost selections revealed when the flag drops.

I imagine the whaliest of whales would make a career of it.

I agree that it should be a part of the game, but not a replacement of current pvp.

I originally suggested this in a different thread:

I would love to see a true PVP mode, where you search for live players who are also searching for live fights. I see this as something you can do when shielded. You are not in the general queue, so you can be moved to a standy area where you can opt to go toe to toe with another human player for points and know that this is the only fight going on at the moment. It would slow down shield hopping and allow a player the choice of gambling for more points while shielding, as the fight is voluntary.

I could see it as being something you can only do when you are shielded, since the devs seem to be deadset on trying to stop shield hopping.

You push through PVP as normal, shield, and then you are in a pool of shielded players, and have the option to go into a "looking for match" mode where you can be challenged/or challenge someone else for a fixed set of points. Challenge the #1 rank player or whatever. Of course moves will be timed to 15 seconds or something, else the AI moves for you, or something. I think playing a smart human would be much more satisfying than playing an AI, and the points gained are truly earned, or the points lost are truly your own fault.

Unknown

irwando wrote:

Is your intention really for us not to play your game?

I believe the intention is for us to all buy shields and break them for no more than a single 30 second fight. Other than that, that bagman cover you win beating a seed team looks kewl right?

Unknown

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

irwando wrote:

Well, once again. Shield drops. I do one match. Win 36, lose 70. Do another. Win 29, lose 95.

Still waiting for that answer from the devs. How is the above remotely fair? You'll continue not to get a penny from me (and I'm sure many others) until situations like this are fixed. It takes all the fun out of the game by making my best choice to shield and not play.

I'm just curious. If you do not have the best team and/or you are not the best player, how is it unfair that you receive results reflecting reality?

It's pvp by definition it's you vs other players, not you vs the rewards ladder.

One more question, if you had the choice of attacking a maxed and buffed version of the toughest team in pvp or attacking someone else for the same amount of points, who would you attack? Is it possible other players came to that same conclusion?

I've said it on this forum once before...participation generation.

Everyone gets a trophy for showing up!

Unknown

mango_sentinel wrote:

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

irwando wrote:

Well, once again. Shield drops. I do one match. Win 36, lose 70. Do another. Win 29, lose 95.

Still waiting for that answer from the devs. How is the above remotely fair? You'll continue not to get a penny from me (and I'm sure many others) until situations like this are fixed. It takes all the fun out of the game by making my best choice to shield and not play.

I'm just curious. If you do not have the best team and/or you are not the best player, how is it unfair that you receive results reflecting reality?

It's pvp by definition it's you vs other players, not you vs the rewards ladder.

One more question, if you had the choice of attacking a maxed and buffed version of the toughest team in pvp or attacking someone else for the same amount of points, who would you attack? Is it possible other players came to that same conclusion?

I've said it on this forum once before...participation generation.

Everyone gets a trophy for showing up!

I see that with every thread begging for reward changes. 4* covers should just be handed out for logging in, everyone gets it each time they boot the game up. No worries.

Unknown

join line fight club to not get hosed in PVP, simple as that

irwando

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

irwando wrote:

Well, once again. Shield drops. I do one match. Win 36, lose 70. Do another. Win 29, lose 95.

Still waiting for that answer from the devs. How is the above remotely fair? You'll continue not to get a penny from me (and I'm sure many others) until situations like this are fixed. It takes all the fun out of the game by making my best choice to shield and not play.

I'm just curious. If you do not have the best team and/or you are not the best player, how is it unfair that you receive results reflecting reality?

It's pvp by definition it's you vs other players, not you vs the rewards ladder.

One more question, if you had the choice of attacking a maxed and buffed version of the toughest team in pvp or attacking someone else for the same amount of points, who would you attack? Is it possible other players came to that same conclusion?

I have a fine roster that I have achieved 1k points with several times and can easily climb to 8-900 points. I have earned >1k points in many tournaments, but due to defense, have finished below.

What is unfair is that in the time I can gain 30 points I lose 150. Tonight I earned a win puting me over 950 and getting me that reward. Upon accepting I was immediately greeted by a screen indicating I had lost 150+ points. How is that fair? I had been play and climbing, losing 1-2 matches but winning most, and actively participating. My "reward" for climbing, doing well, and actively playing was losing at a rate that far exceeds how fast I can earn them.

This is not PvP. This is PvAI using another player's team. I'd love a straight up PvP system where you can only win/lose live matches. Or you challenge someone and each play each other's team via AI. But not the system today where I can have 10 people fight me at once. That's the unfair part.

irwando

acescracked wrote:

irwando wrote:

...

I have a family and life outside the game so any option that requires joining a specific alliance, meeting specific timing or other requirements is simply out of the question.

...

Condescending much? Insinuating that players with a strong 3* roster who hit 1k & 1300 do it because they don't have a family or life outside the game is just wrong. All your statement shows is how confused you are by MPQ.

Joining a top 100 alliance requires responding to the alliances searching for players or posting your own request. It's a one time consuming action that makes your game experience way better. Should take all of 30 mins total. Couple of PMs.

If you get to 900, burn one 3hour shield then hop to 1k doesn't seem to me would affect your personal life much. If you take the crazy 30 mins to join a top 100 alliance (top 250 even) you will be HP positive. The hop from 900 to 1k should be 3 matches (really only 2 actually if you q correctly) that take at most 4 mins each. I know...12 mins will keep you from your family.

Anyway, good luck please don't respond since I know you have a family and a life. Responding should be too time consuming and out of the question.

No, I'm Insinuating that many people have suggested strategies based on specific timings, and that is just not an option for me or many of us. .

I'm very happy with my Alliance which has several of my friends in it. I don't want to join an Alliance where I cannot meet the requirements and many of the top ones have such that I can't commit (I'm not joining Line, I'm not guaranteeing 10k points per seasons, whatever it is).

Tonight I hit 935 easily. 2 easy wins right? One one match, hit 970 or so, and immediately hit for 150 + Points. I hovered back and forth over 900 for probably an hour tonight trying to win those last two matches. Its not a matter of my ability to win. Its a matter of not being able to win faster tahn you lose points, and thats not something I can control.

Bowgentle

irwando wrote:

No, I'm Insinuating that many people have suggested strategies based on specific timings, and that is just not an option for me or many of us. .

I'm very happy with my Alliance which has several of my friends in it. I don't want to join an Alliance where I cannot meet the requirements and many of the top ones have such that I can't commit (I'm not joining Line, I'm not guaranteeing 10k points per seasons, whatever it is).

Tonight I hit 935 easily. 2 easy wins right? One one match, hit 970 or so, and immediately hit for 150 + Points. I hovered back and forth over 900 for probably an hour tonight trying to win those last two matches. Its not a matter of my ability to win. Its a matter of not being able to win faster tahn you lose points, and thats not something I can control.

Of course you can control, like the rest of us - use a 3hr shield over 900 and do one or two hops to 1k.

irwando

Bowgentle wrote:

Of course you can control, like the rest of us - use a 3hr shield over 900 and do one or two hops to 1k.

Which is what I tried to do tonight - go from 935 to 1k. And after my first win of 40+ points i was knocked down 150.

What alternate strategy should I have used there?

Bowgentle

irwando wrote:

Bowgentle wrote:

Of course you can control, like the rest of us - use a 3hr shield over 900 and do one or two hops to 1k.

Which is what I tried to do tonight - go from 935 to 1k. And after my first win of 40+ points i was knocked down 150.

What alternate strategy should I have used there?

Try to q more than a 40 pointer if at all possible - that's trivial in S1 and the X-Men slice.
70+ points would have gotten you over 1k with a single fight.

When did you try to hop?
Don't try in the last 3 hours, do it before that.

Use the fastest team possible and at least ISO boost, maybe even rainbow boost.

If you did all that and still got hit for 150 during a single fight, then it's just bad luck. We've all been there.

nwman

irwando wrote:

Bowgentle wrote:

Of course you can control, like the rest of us - use a 3hr shield over 900 and do one or two hops to 1k.

Which is what I tried to do tonight - go from 935 to 1k. And after my first win of 40+ points i was knocked down 150.

What alternate strategy should I have used there?

So you shielded? How long? It takes 30 minutes to be safer that your out of qs. Even then you need to be lucky sometimes.

Last event I was at 902 and qd targets.

Right before I was going to unshield (about 5 hours shielded) a hit came in -46 had shield not been up.

Okay so spooked I waited 20 minutes. Again a hit -56 or something. Still shielded.

Okay, I'll wait. About 20 minutes before end of event I decided to go. Boosted, won 74, won 72. Got my 1k. There was 12 min left so I decided to keep playing and won 2 more. Very lucky to have played 4 at end and not got hit.

A month ago however 3 shields and 10 matches couldn't get me from 950 to 1000 in an event w a thing cover at 1k. Everytime it was like you. Win 1 lose 2.

TxMoose

irwando wrote:

I appreciate everyone wanting to help. For those wondering, I have a fine 3* roster and am trying to build up 4* characters now. I can regularly hit 800.

I have a family and life outside the game so any option that requires joining a specific alliance, meeting specific timing or other requirements is simply out of the question.

I want to play the game when I have the time to play the game. Shielding is not a way to win. Shielding is a way to not lose while not playing. That's not fun. I've passed the point where PvE is a challenge or interesting, so PvP is it. But my choices generally come down to a) shield and don't play b) play and get hammered, losing more than you can possibly earn and losing the placement you achieved even though you are actively playing.

The only way to further improve my roster at this point is through 4* characters (I've hit 1000 in PvP 3-4 times). I want to play PvP and earn them. I don't even really care about placement, but when I'm sitting at 850-900 points and can't get higher because I get hit for 70-90 points a turn, its crazy.

I'd even take splitting out progression from placement. Don't kill my PvP progressions because I lose. Kill my placement, feel free. Essentially progression is placement now.

Having a design where the best chance of not losing is for your players not to play is a bad design. You should be encouraging people to play and reward them for doing so.

to me it sounds like you need to pick a slice where you can play near the event end. play up to your hovering level and play an odd game here or there when you get hit here or there. then at 2-3 hrs out of event end (or 6-7 hrs out if you want less traffic in the way), make your push, use one shield and your done. sometimes 1K will be attainable and sometimes not, but I learned quickly not to outscore my roster and leave it there without expecting hits. most teams I run can hover in the 600s easily. if I play a couple extra matches and find myself at 775, I know that if I don't shield i'll be hit. period. that's why the 'big push' needs to get me to ~900 for me to be within a couple hops of 1K. that just how I do it, but I've gotten there in one go from 600s several times.