Dev Advice Wanted: How not to get hosed in PvP

irwando

Since you gave advice for Ant Man how about for PvP?

How exactly are we supposed to do well in PvP when we lose more points than we gain during a single match? Win 30, loet 50. Win 45, lose 100. It seems the only answer is to shield and not play. What do the devs do here? What is you proposed method for playing like this and, not even win, but just not lose ground?

Is your intention really for us not to play your game?

atomzed

Pvp is akin to the king of the jungle arena.

The strong will survive better, and the weak survive poorly. That is the nature of pvp.

To do well, you have to get a good roster. If not, you can push hard, but eventually you will be beaten down to a level that is "right" for your roster.

At the high end, the strong roster will also be beaten down but will have more time to rise up. Eventually they will still reach an equilibrium.

I personally feel that the pvp is an exciting system. You just need to manage your own expectations based on your roster strength.

Unknown

Not a Dev but I have a few tips.
First, don't sweat losses/hits. They happen, its inevitable.
Watch your bracket. If the top 10 are all shielded it's probably quiet, if there's a few unshielded be careful because snipers might be out for big points and you could be hit in the crossfire.
It starts to get crazy at the 8 hour mark and gets out of control at the 3. If you're shield hopping try to keep them short. 2 matches, 3 if you feel you were fast enough.
Don't poke the big dogs. X, Crews, Best, Njustice etc. They poke back and they poke hard. Watch for shields, wait a few minutes after you Queue them to be safe. They've got sniper lists, and accident or not you could be put on them.
Mainly it's all about speed. Hit hard and hit fast and get back behind a shield. That 4th match for 50 could cost you 200.

Vhailorx

I have no idea what the ideal PVP system would be. This probably isn't it, but I think that Demiurge has shown themselves to be willing to make big changes every 3-6 months to correct whatever imbalances start to emerge from the PVP meta. Not every change turns out to be good, but it seems clear that demiurge will fix obvious problems eventually.

At the moment, PVP prog rewards are easier than ever for well developed 3* rosters (though placement rewards are a bit harder than they were 4 months ago), which seems like a clear attempt to speed up the 4* transition. but I do see a fair number of complaints from 2* and transition rosters about being completely unable to climb above 400 points or place in the top 100. I don't know if that's because players have yet to adapt to the new changes, or because PVP really is just too hard for transition teams these days (and I can't easily comment on this potential problem because I am well out of 2* land).

As for advice:

Figure out what your equilibrium point is. This can be done fairly easily by timing how long you can sit unshielded before being hit (it will vary based on a few factors like time remaining in the event and defensive team. Try experimenting with different teams and playing at different times. Above your equilibrium point, you can't remain unshielded at all, so fast climbs are essential. Above equilibrium, it's much much player to play to 5 matches in 30 minutes than it is to play 10 matches spread out over 2 hours. so climb to equilibrium, sit there and heal for a bit, then make as big a push as you can and throw up a shield. If you want to hop, it's best to wait 30 minutes or so minimum before breaking shield, and if you have a weak roster keep your hops very short, only 1 or 2 matches.

Also manage expectations. If you don't have maxed 3*s, then you probably won't be scoring 800 reliably in the current PVP environment without spending tons of HP on shields.

Dauthi

irwando wrote:

Win 30, loet 50. Win 45, lose 100. It seems the only answer is to shield and not play. What do the devs do here? What is you proposed method for playing like this and, not even win, but just not lose ground?

Is your intention really for us not to play your game?

If you are losing more than you are winning you are at the point where your team can no longer proceed and you have to throw in the towel. There are a lot of players competing for that 3*, and the ones who have fought the longest should get them first. As you put more hours into the game you will move up in the line and get your 3* too.

Vhailorx

Dauthi wrote:

irwando wrote:

Win 30, loet 50. Win 45, lose 100. It seems the only answer is to shield and not play. What do the devs do here? What is you proposed method for playing like this and, not even win, but just not lose ground?

Is your intention really for us not to play your game?

If you are losing more than you are winning you are at the point where your team can no longer proceed and you have to throw in the towel. There are a lot of players competing for that 3*, and the ones who have fought the longest should get them first. As you put more hours into the game you will move up in the line and get your 3* too.

I disagree with dauthi on this. The problem isn't one of time. PVP is self limiting, such that scores in PVP brackets that were open for the full 60 hours aren't appreciable higher (except for the very very top few slots) than brackets open for 36 hours. Everyone will eventually reach their personal equilibrium point and float around there (unless they shield) no matter how long they play.

the problem is one of strategy. the equilibrium point limits how many points you can get based on roster alone. But shielding and playing at opportune times with a good strategy can let you cheat above that limit a little bit.

Dauthi

Vhailorx wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

irwando wrote:

Win 30, loet 50. Win 45, lose 100. It seems the only answer is to shield and not play. What do the devs do here? What is you proposed method for playing like this and, not even win, but just not lose ground?

Is your intention really for us not to play your game?

If you are losing more than you are winning you are at the point where your team can no longer proceed and you have to throw in the towel. There are a lot of players competing for that 3*, and the ones who have fought the longest should get them first. As you put more hours into the game you will move up in the line and get your 3* too.

I disagree with dauthi on this. The problem isn't one of time. PVP is self limiting, such that scores in PVP brackets that were open for the full 60 hours aren't appreciable higher (except for the very very top few slots) than brackets open for 36 hours. Everyone will eventually reach their personal equilibrium point and float around there (unless they shield) no matter how long they play.

the problem is one of strategy. the equilibrium point limits how many points you can get based on roster alone. But shielding and playing at opportune times with a good strategy can let you cheat above that limit a little bit.

I wasn't as clear as I thought I was. When I mentioned time, I meant long term play time that builds your roster over months, not time spent playing the event.

While lots of factors have a random effect on how much you can achieve, the biggest factor is your roster and knowing what your limit is. Yes, you can cheat that a little by shield hoppping. I don't think shield hopping is worth while however until you can shield hop to 1k points, as a 4* is actually worth the HP used to do so.

irwando

Well, once again. Shield drops. I do one match. Win 36, lose 70. Do another. Win 29, lose 95.

Still waiting for that answer from the devs. How is the above remotely fair? You'll continue not to get a penny from me (and I'm sure many others) until situations like this are fixed. It takes all the fun out of the game by making my best choice to shield and not play.

Zen808

You got some great advice, from a group of guys who, as a matter of habit, do not "get hosed" in PVP...

And you're not gonna be satisfied until you get an answer from the dudes who like using Moonstone?

NickHewitt12

Okay, a few pointers from what I'm seeing here:

- You're hitting people worth less than you (under 38 means they have less points than you). This means that you're giving them a higher point retaliation, which means that they get to hit you for a profit.
- Being hit twice in the span of one match most likely means that you're being sniped. You may be on an alliance's hit list (if you've accidentally or intentionally sniped someone during a hop, they'll be out for blood), or you're coming out at a bad time when everyone's feeding for points.

Also, if you're not already doing it, queue targets while shielded. Don't go skipping while unshielded unless you absolutely have to.

Unknown

I was once where it sounds like you are in the game, and it simply takes time. The answers you are looking for won't come from the devs, but are out there.

The answers are two pronged... take time developing your roster, and join a top 100 alliance. You will learn more from the people in a good alliance than you even know.

Trust me on this. Season 12 my final score was around 6,000 and highest PvP event score was 870. Season 17 my final score will be near 18,500 and my highest PvP event score came in the Pool Party PvP... 2,512.

Now I almost never use a shield under 1,000 points in any event, and I average over 1,600 points per PvP. I learned all I know from the players in Skynet and The X-Men.

Good luck playing MPQ.

reapermort

Boldbrute wrote:

...Don't poke the big dogs. X, Crews, Best, Njustice etc. They poke back and they poke hard. Watch for shields, wait a few minutes after you Queue them to be safe. They've got sniper lists, and accident or not you could be put on them...

See this is where I have issues with the PVP system as it stands now. Have a few minutes of down time at work and want to grab a couple of matches? Nope, better check some out of game website/ chat system, make sure you aren't going to attack the wrong person, or you could have them and their clan come gunning for you?

Malcrof

reapermort wrote:

Boldbrute wrote:

...Don't poke the big dogs. X, Crews, Best, Njustice etc. They poke back and they poke hard. Watch for shields, wait a few minutes after you Queue them to be safe. They've got sniper lists, and accident or not you could be put on them...

See this is where I have issues with the PVP system as it stands now. Have a few minutes of down time at work and want to grab a couple of matches? Nope, better check some out of game website/ chat system, make sure you aren't going to attack the wrong person, or you could have them and their clan come gunning for you?

This is wrong.. poke them, just wait. Most of them shield hop, so if you can get one queued up, do it.. but do it while you are shielded, when you hop, chances are they will be done with their hop and be shielded, AND worth more points then when you queued them up.

That is a key part of hopping, queuing ahead of time, making sure to check leaderboards (alliance and player) making sure to queue people you know will be worth more when you hop. If you hit them while they are shielded, no retal, but to do that, you have to queue them when you see them.. even if it shows 17 pts, by the time you hit them, they can be worth 50+

The hard part is beating those teams.. but that is up to you and some luck.

CrookedKnight

As if "sniping" were even a reasonable possibility in a system where you can't see your target's shield status unless they're in one of two ranges of 10 spots in your exact bracket.

(Also the one time I ended up in a retaliation war along those lines I came out ahead by something like 150 total points, so it's not always a bad thing!)

GurlBYE

I think the advice here may be good but looking at some of the rosters from the signatures in this thread.

I severely doubt some of the advice will work. The op never indicated what sort of characters their working with.

Like joining a top 100 pvp alliance without already doing well doesn't seem very realistic.

Develop your roster answer is best but not a great solution, most players not 4 starred, ARE playing pvp to improve their roster lol

But yeah take their advice, you aren't going to get a solid answer from developers. And sadly this is a free to play, while you won't give them money someone else will give them hundreds if not thousands in a years time.

GurlBYE

Vhailorx wrote:

At the moment, PVP prog rewards are easier than ever for well developed 3* rosters (though placement rewards are a bit harder than they were 4 months ago), which seems like a clear attempt to speed up the 4* transition. but I do see a fair number of complaints from 2* and transition rosters about being completely unable to climb above 400 points or place in the top 100. I don't know if that's because players have yet to adapt to the new changes, or because PVP really is just too hard for transition teams these days (and I can't easily comment on this potential problem because I am well out of 2* land).

Zooming in here, the transitional period of 2 to 3 does significantly increase difficulty just through numbers, a developed 3 star roster has some seriously boosted characters, even when not leveled, it goes from a challenge, to a matter of even if you do win, they will retaliate and wipe you away without a second thought in less then 1/4 the time it took you to beat them.

Transitioners are usually working with loaners, while someone with even a half developed featured character has a pretty extreme advantage unless the character is ****, and even then they usually have enough of a health pool to be a problem.

for 3 star transitioning and even further rising top scores, 400 is sometimes the furthest you'll see, 600+ if no one else cares about the cover up for grabs, even then you'll be knocked around by people climbing to their 1000 for the ****

JVReal

If you can't regularly push to 800 and shield, you may have a hard time getting into a top 100 alliance.

Until then, push to 300 and get the token, pull and hope for gold... you probably need every one of them.

Find a pair that work well together (boosted or not) and try to level them up to 166. Once you have a team of 166/166/loaner, you can push to 550, etc. My first 166 was Groot. My Second was Scarlet Witch, my third was Iron Fist.

In this early stage, don't shield, it isn't worth it unless you are still in a noob or transitioner bracket where 500 will get you top 100. In that case, push close to 3 hours and then shield to the end. 75 HP for a 3* you need is well worth the price.

Once you get your 3* roster covered (more important than levels), you will eventually be able to play casually up to around 400-500 points and hover (that's a good equilibrium point if you have a couple maxed 3* out there for defense). Then within 8 hours or 3 hours of the end, when you have your health packs refreshed and you've pulled your taco tokens and maybe pulled 5 additional health packs (never pull a taco unless you have 10 health packs refreshed) make your push to 800, and then maybe one quick fight afterwards. You'll get your 3* cover, and shield. This is likely enough to get you top 100, and you can then try to merc your score for an alliance reward.

Once you can hit 800 a couple times in a row, try to join a top 100 alliance that has a min of 800 per PVP. When in a top 100 PVP alliance, shielding to the end to preserve your points is a must, and good etiquette. You will gain more than the 75 or 150 HP from rewards up to 800, for individual placement and for alliance placement.

Once you have a stronger roster, and you are finding your push to 800 much easier than normal, try to get a few more fights in before shielding, go for 900... etc. Then pick a good PVP where you have the boosted characters maxed, and try your first hop to 1000. It's an amazing feeling hitting 1K for the first time... then hitting it again.

It takes time. I know in this day and age people want instant gratification, but patience is a virtue. Patience, and a good alliance, and you will LOVE this game.

Unknown

Previous post was great, and also others pointed how can be hard nowadays and how big of a factor is roster. So another advice: make a couple full teams of 2*s, optimally covered and max leveled and work hard on pve for more 3* covers. Takes more time but if you can't get to T100 on pvp means your roster isn't the right one yet, so a bit more patience on this step.

irwando

I appreciate everyone wanting to help. For those wondering, I have a fine 3* roster and am trying to build up 4* characters now. I can regularly hit 800.

I have a family and life outside the game so any option that requires joining a specific alliance, meeting specific timing or other requirements is simply out of the question.

I want to play the game when I have the time to play the game. Shielding is not a way to win. Shielding is a way to not lose while not playing. That's not fun. I've passed the point where PvE is a challenge or interesting, so PvP is it. But my choices generally come down to a) shield and don't play b) play and get hammered, losing more than you can possibly earn and losing the placement you achieved even though you are actively playing.

The only way to further improve my roster at this point is through 4* characters (I've hit 1000 in PvP 3-4 times). I want to play PvP and earn them. I don't even really care about placement, but when I'm sitting at 850-900 points and can't get higher because I get hit for 70-90 points a turn, its crazy.

I'd even take splitting out progression from placement. Don't kill my PvP progressions because I lose. Kill my placement, feel free. Essentially progression is placement now.

Having a design where the best chance of not losing is for your players not to play is a bad design. You should be encouraging people to play and reward them for doing so.

acescracked

irwando wrote:

...

I have a family and life outside the game so any option that requires joining a specific alliance, meeting specific timing or other requirements is simply out of the question.

...

Condescending much? Insinuating that players with a strong 3* roster who hit 1k & 1300 do it because they don't have a family or life outside the game is just wrong. All your statement shows is how confused you are by MPQ.

Joining a top 100 alliance requires responding to the alliances searching for players or posting your own request. It's a one time consuming action that makes your game experience way better. Should take all of 30 mins total. Couple of PMs.

If you get to 900, burn one 3hour shield then hop to 1k doesn't seem to me would affect your personal life much. If you take the crazy 30 mins to join a top 100 alliance (top 250 even) you will be HP positive. The hop from 900 to 1k should be 3 matches (really only 2 actually if you q correctly) that take at most 4 mins each. I know...12 mins will keep you from your family.

Anyway, good luck please don't respond since I know you have a family and a life. Responding should be too time consuming and out of the question.

Unknown

reapermort wrote:

Boldbrute wrote:

...Don't poke the big dogs. X, Crews, Best, Njustice etc. They poke back and they poke hard. Watch for shields, wait a few minutes after you Queue them to be safe. They've got sniper lists, and accident or not you could be put on them...

See this is where I have issues with the PVP system as it stands now. Have a few minutes of down time at work and want to grab a couple of matches? Nope, better check some out of game website/ chat system, make sure you aren't going to attack the wrong person, or you could have them and their clan come gunning for you?

I always attack them, and never bother to wait. They give points, this is Versus, not cooperation, I don't have time to wait, and need quick points. You don't need to play by the rules that they set up. I've been doing this for a while now, and only one time have they came close to gunning me down. It was actually just 1 guy at Rank 3 that attacked me when I unshield at the 2 minute mark to make one last push for Rank 1, he was waiting for me to do it since he was helping the Rank 1 guy securing that spot. I have not experienced a massive amount of players attacking me, even if I did, I wouldn't stop to adjust my playstyle just to follow a made up rule that pretty much ruins the spirit of PvP.

If your roster can handle the beating, they won't attack you, so don't worry, they are wasting time, and health packs doing so, also the chances of them catching you unshielded is pretty slim considering you play during breaks and random times, and a shield hop is typically 3-5 minutes long for 2 matches, you should be safe unless someone is watching your shield 24/7.

Play how you want to play, and most importantly have fun.