A Few Months Later

Raffoon

My opinion on the Xforce and Thor nerfs still hasn't changed:

-They did need nerfs, but the nerfs implemented were too large.
-800-1k more damage on Xforce green and 2-3 more charged tiles on Thor blue would be reasonable and not overpowered in comparison to other 4*s
-The way the nerfs were handled by the developers, in terms of communication, options for refunds, and ability to tune their game with nuance instead of a wrecking ball still leaves me with a lower opinion of both them and the game as a whole.

There have been a lot of good changes recently, but these blunders still stick in my mind. If they'd handled these better, I'd probably still be a paying customer, but as it stands now I'm quite content to never spend another dime on this game.

babinro

As someone who was largely fine with the nerfs I'm inclined to agree that a slight buff wouldn't hurt these characters or the games balance. Exactly how to buff them are where we differ.

1) XF Black - show the player the dominant colour with an OK and Cancel button just like with Deadpools whales. Why is this a buff? Fewer people screwing up it's use in the heat of battle leading to unsatisfactory results.

2) XF Green - Agree with OP. This skill isn't about damage but it could really use a bit more with the recent health buffs. 800-1000 sounds about right.

3) 4Thor Yellow - 4 covers = CD tiles. 5 covers = any non-basic tile in the game (includes webbed and invis) along with an 800 point damage boost.

Note: I think 4Thor's blue skill is almost perfect as is largely due to the power of stunning for 3 turns. 4Thor doesn't need a lot more damage IMO because she's got so many strong support elements tied to her skills. Adding 2-3 more charged tile to this skill is just pushing it IMO. I could see maybe adding one more changed tile but even then I don't think it's necessary.

SnakesArrows

I could not agree more that the nerfs were overdone. I have some different thoughts on changes.

With regard to Xforce i think a small increase to green would be great. Five hundred would be ok (if add in the below on black). The black is actually more of a problem for me. I find too many times where i am reluctant to use the power as it will hurt me as much or more than the other team by removing a certain color (red or blue for example if with 4Thor). I think taking the damage DOWN in black slightly (very slightly) and giving half to full AP from the board would be a fair change. No steal or removal from the opposition, but something back for the AP off the board. A slight boost to his health would not hurt either. Maybe 12000?

4Thor i like the yellow idea above in removing different tiles. The yellow power is the redheaded step child (sorry to all redheaded step children) here and does not need to be. I would settle for 1-2 more charge tiles off blue. Note that we are still waiting for an additional charged tile partner for her that supposedly necessitated the heavy reduction in charged tiles in the first place (and i don't count rags!).

While on the topic it would not hurt to go back and makes some revisions to Sentry. I don't want to return to the days of endless Sentry bombing but help Fabio out a little. Go back to two turn world rupture and look at the forum suggestions for limiting strike tile coordination on the power.

That stated i really do feel the best about this game since before the true healing changes about a year ago. They have made some nice changes and i am first to admit that I did not believe they all were good changes up front. Though that makes me worried about whatever they have planned around the corner as the Dev really seem like two steps forward one (or more) steps back kind of guys.

Mawtful

Wolverine
I've begun encountering XFW's with less than 5 ranks in green. I'd estimate that the encounter rate is about 25%; out of those, I can only assume that the most common build is 3/5/5, but I know I've seen more than one at 4/5/4. IMO, anything less than rank 5 in Green may as well be 0 - the damage output and board disruption is negligible. So I still believe that he only has one viable build (5/5/3). Increasing the damage on Green isn't really going to change that, Yellow has to be worthwhile in order to be considered a valid skill to take past rank 3. That doesn't mean Green couldn't stand to gain a little bit of extra damage, but keep in mind it's a board disruption ability. Here's my proposed changes:

X-Force
Rank 3: Deal additional damage for each enemy special tile destroyed.
Rank 4: Destroys 15 tiles in three 3x3 X-shaped patterns.
Rank 5: Also deal additional damage for each friendly special tile destroyed.

The ability now gains conditional damage for special tiles destroyed. Rank 3 is still 9 tiles (single 5x5 pattern) but the increase to 15 tiles is a rank earlier. The benefit of going to Rank 5 is getting additional damage from your own special tiles.

Recovery
The ability creates three 1-turn countdown tiles, each of these heals for 1/3 of the total value or destroys/damages for 1/3 of the total value.

I think this makes Recovery infinitely more appealing. Wolverine is more likely to heal up, although it's also likely that one of those tiles is going to get taken out.

Thor
I never got to experience Thor at the height of her power, and even now I only have her at 4/5/3. I think she's actually quite strong in her current form, so there's no doubt that she was overpowered before. Still, there are few changes I would make:

Smite
Slight increase on damage per charged tile and "consume" charged tiles on use instead of generating more. (That is, charged tiles revert to being basic tiles) No AP generated from this conversion.

I actually think Thor should probably go right back to the drawing board and have the entire character redesigned. Power Surge is fine, Smite can't deal bonus damage from Charged Tiles AND create additional Charged Tiles. Pick One (I picked do the bonus damage). This means Striking Distance needs to go back to generating more Charged Tiles. Possibly just change it back, maybe have it target all special tiles at rank 5, that would at least encourage some build diversity.

Anyway, changes to XF and Thor were the right thing to do. They still get played even when they're not on the weekly buff list, so the nerfs can't have been that bad. Ultimately, I do think that there are still some serious design flaws but that really doesn't surprise me.

Edit: Fixed my error regarding Power Surge cost. Expanded my thoughts on Thor a little.

Xenoberyll

i also agree with the nerfs being OP. i just wanted to add i really hate that X-force's yellow boardshake hits his own team when the opponent matches the countdown. No way Wolverine would do that.

Unknown

All I know is that I actively chase teams with x-force on them now. Which suggests to me that he has gone from being OP, to mediocre.

simonsez

Mawtful wrote:

Power Surge
Reduce the cost to 9 AP. Even at rank 5, I don't feel that this is a 4-turn ability.

You thinking of Smite?

Malcrof

Mawtful wrote:

[
Recovery
The ability creates three 1-turn countdown tiles, each of these heals for 1/3 of the total value or destroys/damages for 1/3 of the total value.

I think this makes Recovery infinitely more appealing. Wolverine is more likely to heal up, although it's also likely that one of those tiles is going to get taken out.

Never once have i used Recover to actually heal him, as far as i am concerned, it is a board shake, damage ability. Make the CD higher so we have more of a chance at matching it!

SnowcaTT

I always wonder how far in advance new characters are being planned. Almost every 4* that has come out is -vastly- superior to the ones that were nerfed. I see tons of PX, HB, starting to see Carnage and Thing already - Thor is about as common to see as Fury/KP at this point, and XF is the last refuge of the poor fool who (like myself) bought covers of the "best 4*" and hoped it would stay that way.

Both were over-nerfed, and should be returned close to their original form to be able to compete as viable in 4* land. I've always said XF didn't need the green touched, returning it to how it was would make him a low health high damage 4*....as opposed to say, thing/HB/carnage, high-health high-damage 4*'s.

tanis3303

I'd like to see them go a slightly different route with X-Force...what if they left the damage/board shake alone for his green, but let you place the center of the X? (or X's, depending on the level) You've just created an insanely good board control character, but since the AI will be stupid with it, it only gets better when hes players controlled, so everybody wins.

Unknown

I am honestly ok with Thor. She takes longer to get rolling but once she does she still steam rolls the enemy team. I would like to see Power Surge have some damage tacked onto it, just because it still feels odd to do a no damaging move with Thor.

XF on the other hand, they went WAY overboard with his green. Even with the cascade potential it is basically the equivalent of Rocket and Groot's in terms of damage and cascade. That is not fair to a 4* character. Taking out the AP generation of SS and tweaking it's damage was fine. Changes to Recovery were fine. Changes to were terrible.

For 8 AP on a 4* character I expect to be able to do about ~4000 damage. Maybe a little less on this one due to the cascade nature. Not 1900 damage. The ability either needs to double it's base damage, or deal a fixed amount of damage per tile destroyed to bring it up to the 3000+ damage range.

Mawtful

simonsez wrote:

Mawtful wrote:

Power Surge
Reduce the cost to 9 AP. Even at rank 5, I don't feel that this is a 4-turn ability.

You thinking of Smite?

Huh. Oh yeah. I guess Power Surge is fine as it is then.

TheOncomingStorm

babinro wrote:

As someone who was largely fine with the nerfs I'm inclined to agree that a slight buff wouldn't hurt these characters or the games balance. Exactly how to buff them are where we differ.

1) XF Black - show the player the dominant colour with an OK and Cancel button just like with Deadpools whales. Why is this a buff? Fewer people screwing up it's use in the heat of battle leading to unsatisfactory results.

2) XF Green - Agree with OP. This skill isn't about damage but it could really use a bit more with the recent health buffs. 800-1000 sounds about right.

3) 4Thor Yellow - 4 covers = CD tiles. 5 covers = any non-basic tile in the game (includes webbed and invis) along with an 800 point damage boost.

Note: I think 4Thor's blue skill is almost perfect as is largely due to the power of stunning for 3 turns. 4Thor doesn't need a lot more damage IMO because she's got so many strong support elements tied to her skills. Adding 2-3 more charged tile to this skill is just pushing it IMO. I could see maybe adding one more changed tile but even then I don't think it's necessary.

I have mixed feelings. I feel xforce green needs slight damage boost, but I feel it's 4or yellow, not blue, that needs to be fixed.

I'm just guessing, but it kind of seems they figured out what the correct boosted power level for when their buffed, then they backed that off to figure out their normal power level. Whereas most characters they figure out the base level then just apply the boost when buffed.

GrumpySmurf1002

Having just hit 1300 on the back of XForce (and Fist), can't say that they rendered XForce obsolete in the slightest. I've got alliance mates running 4Thor consistently in PvP, and saw her some even among the seas of Fistbusters last event.

Truth is that old 4Thor and especially XForce would be tearing through even the newest buffs. They were just that strong.

Would I be happy with an extra 1000 on green, or 7 charge tiles? Sure, but they don't need it to be very effective characters.

atomzed

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Having just hit 1300 on the back of XForce (and Fist), can't say that they rendered XForce obsolete in the slightest. I've got alliance mates running 4Thor consistently in PvP, and saw her some even among the seas of Fistbusters last event.

Truth is that old 4Thor and especially XForce would be tearing through even the newest buffs. They were just that strong.

Would I be happy with an extra 1000 on green, or 7 charge tiles? Sure, but they don't need it to be very effective characters.

My sentiments exactly.

Self disclosure,I have a max xforce before the nerf, but only got my GT max after the nerf.

Xforce was just so dominant before nerf, not with the nerf his power is brought more in line with the others. His SS is still a nuke, even though more conditional. His green is a good board shake, in fact so good that I rate it as the best board shake. He is still good in this meta... In the CM pvp, I was using him and cmag because the Sexmagnet is still one of the fastest team. Yes, Xforce green could do more dmg, SS should retain maybe the Ap drain.... But he is still good.

For GT, I max her just after the nerf so I didn't experience her full glory. But even with this supposedly nerf GT, she is my go-to team for tough nodes, like Inner Space Cadet. I like her Smite and Power surge synergy, and it's like a train... Slow to start but once you get it going, it hits hard.

Unknown

this topic keeps getting repeated over and over...can we just agree to make a "State of the Game" Month X post?

Thor was overnerfed, xforce is meh, neither really compare to hulkbuster which doesn't make sense

Raffoon

I'm now posting at a time when a lot more 4* characters exist in the game. 500-1000 more damage on Xforce green and 2 more charged tiles somewhere on Thoress (really, they could be added to any ability) wouldn't make either of them overpowered and would go a long way towards making players' investments feel worthwhile.

In related news, I still refuse to spend another dime on the game. Last time I did, they took the thing I bought and destroyed it, then offered less than 1/10 the value back in HP. (The increased buyback policy introduced with Xforce wasn't in effect when Thoress was nerfed, so even with an increased sell price the total buyback was 2500 HP total at full covers/iso)

Balancing characters is fine. Taking a sledgehammer to them isn't.

RWTDBurn

Like most everyone else, I also feel that they needed perhaps a tap with the 'ol nerf bat but instead got beat down mercilessly with it instead. Now that we are definitely in the age of 4*s these nerf's really seem harsh and a bit of a boost would be welcome (especially for x-force). Do I see it happening? No. I can almost hear the uproar of cries now from the people that sold them after they were nerfed if they were to turn around and buff them now.

MarcusGraves

I really find myself missing the AP drain that was on surgical strike, it saved me a good number of times and I would love to see it back on XF's green ability with like a base drain of 2, 3 at rank 3 and 5 at rank 5 and of course just a little bit more damage.

Unknown

MarcusGraves wrote:

I really find myself missing the AP drain that was on surgical strike, it saved me a good number of times and I would love to see it back on XF's green ability with like a base drain of 2, 3 at rank 3 and 5 at rank 5 and of course just a little bit more damage.

they've been taking away AP tricks, not adding them.

Only way you'll see Xforce with AP tricks is with a time machine.

Dragon_Nexus

I'd like to see 4hor boosted a little simply because I adore the character and want more than anything to get her to be my first maxed level 4*.

It would suck to spend all that ISO on her and for her to be only *really* good when boosted.