The Vault

DFiPL

rawfsu wrote:

We KNOW there are 300 items, we KNOW you can only earn 10 tokens a week, we KNOW there is a five day counter on The Vault. We need to wait and see what happens when The Vault resets and if we hoard tokens. Until then, I wouldn't spend ANY gold!

the devs have also said "if you hoard, that's on you," though. If it were literally not possible to hoard that statement would make no sense. I think what's likely to happen is one of two things:

1) all the tokens are valid for whatever the current pool is
2) there will be an 'expired' pool that replaced the random 4* and 3* rewards with set rewards so that the game isn't trying to track what the previous, RNG-affected, pool was for every player in the game. Then, from there, the tokens will operate per normal, based mainly on the featured 3*.

I really don't think the randomly-generated 4's and 3's are going to carry over if they continue to have a two-tier token system.

Unknown

Vhailorx wrote:

It's still a bit early to tell, but at first look it appears that the vault will either be

(1) about the same for most players, or

(2) a little bit worse for most players.

My general reasoning is as follows:

When I say "most people" I mean that portion of the playerbase that is serious enough to care about daily rewards and roster building, but doesn't spend large amounts of money with great frequency. So everything from f2p players to those who drop $5-20 on the game periodically to buy roster slots or specific covers. I consider this to be numerical majority of the playerbase, though they probably don't represent a majority of the games revenue.

In the old daily quest system, most players just hoarded tokens until the characters they wanted were in the pool, and then dropped 30+ tokens at once, hoping for an elusive Iron Fist or Khan cover. If vault tokens carry over, things will basically be the same for those players. They will just stockpile tokens until they see a good vault reward set, and then open tokens until they get the 3* or 4* covers they want. The net result seems very similar.

On the other hand, if vault tokens don't carry over, then players who don't buy vault token packs will get 10 draws from each vault, meaning a minimum chance at any of the desirable rewards. That would meant that the vault is basically the same as a regular heroic token unless you spend HP on packs, which seems like the less likely outcome. I would guess that the vault tokens carry over to each new vault.

And it may also be true that the vault is beneficial for that tiny portion of the playerbase that spends hundreds of dollars each month on this game (as they can now wait for a vault with rewards they want, and then buy packs until they get those specific rewards. Not sure of the math yet, but knowing the available universe of rewards should allow people to quit while they are ahead when they get lucky pulls, and thereby save money from time to time).

I remain dubious that this new system will significantly increase the rate of 4* acquisition, but we will have to wait and collect some retail data (and see what tweaks demiurge decides to make) because we can be sure.

even though its a small %, it will increase the amount of 4* in play

Unknown

Hoarding looks like a waste of time - for clearing the vault purposes anyway. The big sink is the health packs, do you really want to waste all the tacos on health packs? They want sit in 'a different pile', instead whenever you go to use one, those are the ones that get used first, not hte renewable ones. A 5 month 'hoard' will net you about 26hp a day, 400 iso per day and 1.4 hp a day, the rest of the income is from covers.

And the animation is unskippable so far...

So no, I'm not thrilled...
- Unreall

Unknown

Did the old taco tokens had a chance to pull 4*s? If not then the vault has it and the chances is increased. I really never pay attention to the odds on the tokens so unless I pull a 4* I can't even say it does have a chance.

blinktag

Lower chance to pull 3* character covers? Check
Lots of useless rewards? Check
Loooong animations? Check

It's like they say in a room and brainstormed ways to make DDQ worse.

In addition:
1. Despite how MPQ measures it, 1K ISO or 5 health packs are not the equivalent of a 3* cover. So no, I don't count those when looking for good pulls.
2. All of the odds assume pulling any particular item is equally likely.
3. As others have said, the adjective "sweet" suggests there will be more than one kind of taco, so hoarding will be less useful.

In all, no, I'm not particularly impressed yet.

dkffiv

Unreallystic wrote:

Hoarding looks like a waste of time - for clearing the vault purposes anyway. The big sink is the health packs, do you really want to waste all the tacos on health packs? They want sit in 'a different pile', instead whenever you go to use one, those are the ones that get used first, not hte renewable ones. A 5 month 'hoard' will net you about 26hp a day, 400 iso per day and 1.4 hp a day, the rest of the income is from covers.

And the animation is unskippable so far...

So no, I'm not thrilled...
- Unreall

They didn't decrease the odds of getting 3*'s by diluting them with health packs, the health packs are basically taking the place of 2* draws. Save for the new Bullseye green I haven't needed a 2* cover in forever so drawing them amounts to 250 ISO for me. If I can control when I can (attempt) to get them 5x health packs are a lot more valuable to me than 250 ISO.

blinktag wrote:

Lower chance to pull 3* character covers? Check
Lots of useless rewards? Check
Loooong animations? Check

The odds of the featured 3* went down but the overall chances of getting one went up. You also got an additional 1% chance at a 4*.
Overall the rewards are better, you are pulling a lot more ISO on average from "trash" draws.
Animation is the only valid complaint. Maybe they'll fix it

blinktag wrote:

In addition:
1. Despite how MPQ measures it, 1K ISO or 5 health packs are not the equivalent of a 3* cover. So no, I don't count those when looking for good pulls.
2. All of the odds assume pulling any particular item is equally likely.
3. As others have said, the adjective "sweet" suggests there will be more than one kind of taco, so hoarding will be less useful.

In all, no, I'm not particularly impressed yet.

For #1, those (1.5k ISO mind you) are replacing 2* covers. Those are better than 250 ISO. #2 appears to have equal probability from the test pulls I've done on a sandbox account. #3 we'll have to wait and see but I doubt there will be multiple types, I think its too much overhead. I agree with the person who said the label is to just differentiate between the old tokens.

Nooneelsesname

I wouldn't be surprised if there's sweet, salty, bitter, sour and umami tacos just for maximum trollage from the devs.

The one big positive I see here is that it is the only guaranteed noncompetitive way to get a 4* cover you don't yet have. This would also explain the reset button. I don't like the ludicrous amount of HP it would take to guarantee that cover, but they probably like making money.

Malcrof

Nooneelsesname wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if there's sweet, salty, bitter, sour and umami tacos just for maximum trollage from the devs.

Verde, Sriracha..

dkffiv

Updated my analysis to include this: Assuming you sell every cover you get out of the pack (2/3/4*), each token is worth on average 429 ISO, 13 HP and .7 health packs.

For reference, a standard token is worth 130 ISO on average, heroic / event tokens somewhere between 313-322 ISO.

nwman

They could increase the number of tacos you can win to 4 or 5 per day.

Unknown

nwman wrote:

They could increase the number of tacos you can win to 4 or 5 per day.

give us the ability to win tacos in events

ShionSinX wrote:

Did the old taco tokens had a chance to pull 4*s? If not then the vault has it and the chances is increased. I really never pay attention to the odds on the tokens so unless I pull a 4* I can't even say it does have a chance.

they didn't

GrumpySmurf1002

dkffiv wrote:

Updated my analysis to include this: Assuming you sell every cover you get out of the pack (2/3/4*), each token is worth on average 429 ISO, 13 HP and .7 health packs.

For reference, a standard token is worth 130 ISO on average, heroic / event tokens somewhere between 313-322 ISO.

If that's correct, then the HP ROI is unchanged (it was 13 on the old Tacos also).

The Iso/Health obviously increase because there were no 1k+ possibilities in the old tacos.

Wonko33

So it's totally even steven odds of getting any one item ?

The probability of a 3 or 4* is just lower because there is much more other items?

dkffiv

Wonko33 wrote:

So it's totally even steven odds of getting any one item ?

The probability of a 3 or 4* is just lower because there is much more other items?

Appears to be equal probability (.33% per individual piece). The odds of getting a specific character are down .33% (*if they aren't also included in the 9 random ones) but the overall odds of getting a 3* have gone up.

Sullstar

Has there been any clarification/confirmation as to what happens when the 5-day vault timer runs out?

_RiO_

Sullstar wrote:

Has there been any clarification/confirmation as to what happens when the 5-day vault timer runs out?

The vault resets. I.e. if you pulled 5 days of nothing but dud health packs using your 10 tokens (assuming you have all the necessary 3*s to get all 10), then on the 6th day the vault will be restocked with more duds to wade through.

mjh

The simple solution to this is decrease the vault from 300 to literally any number less than that. I vote for 30-60 so that in 2 weeks to 1 month you can draw everything from your vault if you choose.

Who came up with this 300 number? And then decided to dilute it with way too many 2*s and healthpacks?

JVReal

I think the gist of what people are saying is that The Vault is a good idea in theory. I've seen it work in other games, but with a much smaller pool of cards and a limited number of resets during a fixed set of time (typically the length of an event and shortly thereafter). The amount of pulls you could get were impacted by the event specific currency you collected from participation. You fight a battle and depending on difficulty you could get 3-9 crystals. It costs 10 crystals per pull. 50 items in the vault, 1 free reset of the vault. If you pulled ****, you kept going because you knew that you could earn enough currency during the event time to empty the vault at least once, and if you were lucky to pull the 2 top cards, you could reset it and go for them again. That is a rough recollection of how they implemented it and it worked.

This is how I envisioned the Vault when they described it and touted it as an amazing improvement on drawing the cards you want and taking out the 'randomness' of the tokens.

What I think people are disheartened with is that when it was finally implemented, it was done in the least efficient method possible. Nobody expected the vault to contain 300 objects. Nobody expected that the vault would refresh every 5 days. Nobody expected it to be filled with Health Packs when those were never rewards before in the taco tokens. Nobody expected the cover colors in the vault to be randomly generated to the point where you could end up with 5 featured characters with all 5 of the same cover. They could easily have made them 6 of each featured character, 2 of each color and you knew you had a shot at the cover you needed or wanted.

The sheer size of the pool, 300, and the extremely short length of time to actually impact your odds, 5 days, with the limited number of "free" draws, 5 or 10 if you have all the required characters, all contribute to the feeling that the vault may as well not even exist. Throwing a 4* into the random pool would have been just as effective as implementing this Vault which has so much potential... than wasting that potential.

I see it as a Giant Cookie, with 3 chocolate chips in it... a cookie that takes 300 bites to finish. You are granted 2 free bites a day, but after 5 days you are given a brand new Giant Cookie with 3 chocolate chips in it. The objective is to bite it until you get the 3 chocolate chips. The problem is that with that much cookie, and only 3 chocolate chips in it... can you really call it a chocolate chip cookie? You could literally go months without ever biting a chocolate chip because they keep putting a new cookie out every 5 days.

And after you've resolved that you'll save up your tokens to take a bigger chunk out of one pool of covers on a week you like... there's the rumors (if it's confirmed, I couldn't find where devs confirmed it) that there are two different kinds of tokens splitting the pools making the odds even worse.

I would be much happier with the Vault if they:
1. Reduced the size of the pool
2. Increased the length of time between resets
3. Don't RNG the cover colors of the featured characters, put 2 of each color of each featured character for the week.
4. Don't split the pools by making various 'versions' of the tokens.

This would make me feel like my using the vault is actually increasing my odds of getting the prizes I want and less like I'm supposed to spend money on more pulls.

Unknown

So we are on the second or third week of the vault and I'm just now noticing that they have different vaults...so saving up for 150 days won't let you 'clear' a vault...it wil ltake 150 x Num_Vaults.

So after a year, you most likely still won't have a full vault to pull from. I'm not sure I can hold out 'that long'...ugh
- Unreall

TxMoose

been playing 7 months. my guess is in a year, I won't be worried about 99% of what is in the vaults. maybe more. assuming there's 2 vaults I may save up to 40-50 and then have a go at a good vault. not sure I can do much more than that. even by then with ddq I won't be needing much other than iso (will be needing a ton of that - that'll never change).