Preemptive (No) Scaling Discussion

Unknown

So with the Q&A video I think one of the big takeaways would be to talk about Scaling and how you experience it in events.

I think its important we prepare to talk about scaling so D3 can't just say 'whelp they didn't like no scaling a-hyuck!'
NOTE: I urge people to not just say 'the sky is falling' or 'daed gaem'.

There was a time, before, 2 or 3 events did not have scaling(One was Iso-8 brotherhood) where everything was just the default level(For those interested, Level 40 for 3*, level 15 for 2*, level 1 for everything else. Don't remeber if 4* are at 70 or lower or w/e), and yes, it was a bug.

But honestly? It was great. I could do a node, not get frustrated, and move on with my life.

Some people complained that this evened the playing field, and that anyone could just do every node 6 times and win .

I think there's enough challenge in PVP and events like Gauntlet that I don't need to see anymore level 99999 Juggernauts in PVE

Personally, I think scaling should just be static: Like deadpool daily. There's the essential split, but there can also be a level split. One of the greatest crimes in the game is punishing players for going to level 270. That way, certain people do have an advantage without really 'screwing' anyone, and there's a logical progression to events.

Please give D3 your input about scaling below. Also, remember this thread when we get to the 'no scaling' events!

Malcrof

<forumites> it all sucks, we hate it, they screwed it up again </forumites>

personally, i can't wait to try it. It will be nice to know that i can go to bed and not wake up to 1/2 the PVE being "deadly"

Unknown

What do you mean experiences with no scaling? It'd just be like virtually any PvE game out there. Before there was scaling, the hardest node in an event is usually level 230 (that was the cap). Back then I was a 2* transition guy and my best character is Wolverine, but I still can beat them a lot of the time. I had Moonstone stealing Threatens and Deadly Shots to KO the level 200 guys that I otherwise could not possibly do enough damage to on time. Overall I tended to lose to the dirty veterans who had Magneto/Spiderman/Ragnarok but I know that when I have those characters it'd be much easier. Well, I never got Ragnarok in his pre nerf form, but I did get everyone else. And while we certainly do not need characters like pre nerf Magneto again, I don't see what's wrong with losing a 3* roster when all you got are 2*s. The only concern I have is during the first run of The Hulk, the final story node was 230 Ragnarok (pre nerf) + 230 Juggernaut and I think someone else, and I remember a lot of people posted on the board asking what happens when you beat it since most people gave up on that node. Even a lot of veterans didn't bother because the opponent having Ragnarok means you can't use Ragnarok, and against a 2 AP Thunderclap, even pre nerf Magneto looked pretty weak. Of course the obvious solution is to make sure story nodes don't have level 395 guys guarding them when you turn off scaling, though if that is somehow too complicated, I'll live with some people occasionally miss some of the story. A lot of people can't beat the last node in The Hulk at all and the game didn't die because of that.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

What do you mean experiences with no scaling? It'd just be like virtually any PvE game out there. Before there was scaling, the hardest node in an event is usually level 230 (that was the cap). Back then I was a 2* transition guy and my best character is Wolverine, but I still can beat them a lot of the time. I had Moonstone stealing Threatens and Deadly Shots to KO the level 200 guys that I otherwise could not possibly do enough damage to on time. Overall I tended to lose to the dirty veterans who had Magneto/Spiderman/Ragnarok but I know that when I have those characters it'd be much easier. Well, I never got Ragnarok in his pre nerf form, but I did get everyone else. And while we certainly do not need characters like pre nerf Magneto again, I don't see what's wrong with losing a 3* roster when all you got are 2*s. The only concern I have is during the first run of The Hulk, the final story node was 230 Ragnarok (pre nerf) + 230 Juggernaut and I think someone else, and I remember a lot of people posted on the board asking what happens when you beat it since most people gave up on that node. Even a lot of veterans didn't bother because the opponent having Ragnarok means you can't use Ragnarok, and against a 2 AP Thunderclap, even pre nerf Magneto looked pretty weak. Of course the obvious solution is to make sure story nodes don't have level 395 guys guarding them when you turn off scaling, though if that is somehow too complicated, I'll live with some people occasionally miss some of the story. A lot of people can't beat the last node in The Hulk at all and the game didn't die because of that.

They're going to turn off scaling. I know you're retired so you may not have read about it

MarvelMan

There needs to be a middle ground between punishing developed rosters by over scaling and creating a grind fest for the crazies. I doubt anyone would advocate for no scaling, but community scaling that drove nodes into Deadly (or sometimes where "Normal" was 395s....) before people had a chance to play them was nuts.

fmftint

they never said they were testing no scaling, they will be testing no COMMUNITY scaling. your nodes will still increase in level but it will be completely independent of all other players.

Example: if you play a level 100 node now and beat it it may go up to 110, come back 8 hours later when points are refreshed thanks to community scaling it may be 130. with community scaling off when you return it will still be the same 110 where you left it

Unknown

fmftint wrote:

they never said they were testing no scaling, they will be testing no COMMUNITY scaling. your nodes will still increase in level but it will be completely independent of all other players.

Example: if you play a level 100 node now and beat it it may go up to 110, come back 8 hours later when points are refreshed thanks to community scaling it may be 130. with community scaling off when you return it will still be the same 110 where you left it

so comment about that then

GrumpySmurf1002

Removing one variable should in theory make the effects of others more clear, so that's certainly a positive.

It's also a positive that 1* rosters that can pound the heck out of a node won't be able to drive someone from level 250->300 (or worse) on the same node.

How it will change the game, I'm not sure anyone has a good answer, including the devs (who basically said as much).

The only thing I want to see is more feedback on this "test" from the devs side. Past 'tests' have resulted in them collecting feedback and data, then hearing zero about what they learned from 'testing'. (testing in quotes because with few exceptions, they were changes that weren't rolled back).

Sure, we learned (finally) that the MMR change increased match length 30%, but that information only came back in relation to another change. Knowing what the devs are seeing/want to see will ultimately help the players understand how to give better feedback. It's win-win really.

Unknown

Title semantics aside,
I'm not sure if it's me, but it seems that they've been moving away from having goons as the higher value nodes. I can't remember the last time I saw 3 goons at 395. The problem those nodes create are that anyone with board control heroes (Cap, Falcon) can win easily after a long match, whereas people relying on fast board damage die off eventually, creating a sense of unfairness towards certain rosters. My roster is heavily invested in board control, so I loved the 395 goon nodes or 1 villain, 2-non feeder goon nodes. Lots of points, and it weeds out some of the competition.

I do agree that this will move the rankings less from skill based play to time based play, where 'skill' is defined as the ability to beat high scaled nodes.
For people who play just for progression, this change will be great.
For people who play for story, this change will also be nice (although how much new story is out there? )

I think anyone who makes t20 now will be able to compete for top 5, since they've limited the full point benefit of the grind and timing will be the main competition factor.

Unknown

If there is no community scaling it'd just be like Gauntlet, and I don't think Gauntlet is designed to be fairer to strong roster, but rather that when nodes scale to level 500 but are capped 395 that ends up canceling the advantage scaling normally gives to weaker rosters.

Getting rid of only community scaling is a bad idea. In general, scaling starts out unfavorable to veterans but eventually favors them if it hits the point of 'can't possibly go any higher', since after 395 your nodes are never getting any higher but the value continues to climb for someone who started off with less scaling, and the person with less scaling does have a weaker roster than you so at some point it's got to go back in your favor. I'm not saying this makes community scaling good, but at least it sometimes evens out. Without community scaling, it is likely the weaker rosters are always favored since no additional scaling is put into the system. And if the veterans are favored? Then you might as well have no scaling at all, which always favors the veteran and is virtually how every other PvE game works.

Unknown

Maybe my understanding of PVE is wrong... but I play other games that have PVP and PVE and PVE isn't COMPETITIVE. If everyone can do it, then so be it. Everyone plays against the ENVIRONMENT (ie AI) and the rewards should be upon completion of tasks, not if I beat others around me. Scaling is placed to create competition amongst players. It's there to make it hard for everyone to play the same way. Which in my opinion is against the whole concept of PVE.

As I mentioned before I might have a wrong idea of PVE, but the one that is implicated in MPQ has actually turned me off from it. I no longer play PVE even though I think I might have some really good ideas on how to make it interesting again.

All of this to say community scaling along with personal scaling should both be turned off and character levels should be set.

Unknown

daibar wrote:

Title semantics aside,

It's subliminal

OnesOwnGrief

Koko81 wrote:

Maybe my understanding of PVE is wrong... but I play other games that have PVP and PVE and PVE isn't COMPETITIVE. If everyone can do it, then so be it. Everyone plays against the ENVIRONMENT (ie AI) and the rewards should be upon completion of tasks, not if I beat others around me. Scaling is placed to create competition amongst players. It's there to make it hard for everyone to play the same way. Which in my opinion is against the whole concept of PVE.

As I mentioned before I might have a wrong idea of PVE, but the one that is implicated in MPQ has actually turned me off from it. I no longer play PVE even though I think I might have some really good ideas on how to make it interesting again.

All of this to say community scaling along with personal scaling should both be turned off and character levels should be set.

No, your idea is correct. It's this game in particular that doesn't have a true PvE, but its PvE masked as PvP. Everything has leaderboards, even events that don't need them like "Gauntlet" and "Deadpool Daily" because events have to be coded that way. There are still rewards you get per node, but if they wanted to remove the competitive nature of it all, they'd have to make the nodes harder and reward better. Doesn't really matter which way you go as someone is going to complain about it like they do about not being able to finish gauntlet without the required character.

Unknown

Koko81 wrote:

Maybe my understanding of PVE is wrong... but I play other games that have PVP and PVE and PVE isn't COMPETITIVE. If everyone can do it, then so be it. Everyone plays against the ENVIRONMENT (ie AI) and the rewards should be upon completion of tasks, not if I beat others around me. Scaling is placed to create competition amongst players. It's there to make it hard for everyone to play the same way. Which in my opinion is against the whole concept of PVE.

As I mentioned before I might have a wrong idea of PVE, but the one that is implicated in MPQ has actually turned me off from it. I no longer play PVE even though I think I might have some really good ideas on how to make it interesting again.

All of this to say community scaling along with personal scaling should both be turned off and character levels should be set.

That's how a lot of us have been wanting them to do PVE since the start of the game. The game really has two PVP modes: direct and indirect, with the occasional "actual" PVE like the Gauntlet, Ultron, and DDQ.

tanis3303

I've mentioned this before, but I vote for keeping these crazy 395 nodes, but making them one and done, and actually worth the risk of fighting them. Set them at a difficulty proportional to each players roster, and community scaling is no longer an issue. Beat a lvl 395 Hood/Muscle/Don node? Cool. Here's 1,000 ISO or an event token or 25/50 HP, as well as a couple thousand event points, and now that node is locked for the rest of the sub.

Let overall event placement be decided by who has the essentials, and who can or is willing to play the event the most - not who can get the luckiest boards or who's willing to drop the most $$$ on health packs and rainbow boosts so they can clear these death nodes 5-6x at the subs end. We've all been clambering for a less grindy, time consuming PvE experience...as far as I can see, there's your answer right there.

Malcrof

Ben Grimm wrote:

Koko81 wrote:

Maybe my understanding of PVE is wrong... but I play other games that have PVP and PVE and PVE isn't COMPETITIVE. If everyone can do it, then so be it. Everyone plays against the ENVIRONMENT (ie AI) and the rewards should be upon completion of tasks, not if I beat others around me. Scaling is placed to create competition amongst players. It's there to make it hard for everyone to play the same way. Which in my opinion is against the whole concept of PVE.

As I mentioned before I might have a wrong idea of PVE, but the one that is implicated in MPQ has actually turned me off from it. I no longer play PVE even though I think I might have some really good ideas on how to make it interesting again.

All of this to say community scaling along with personal scaling should both be turned off and character levels should be set.

That's how a lot of us have been wanting them to do PVE since the start of the game. The game really has two PVP modes: direct and indirect, with the occasional "actual" PVE like the Gauntlet, Ultron, and DDQ.

Kinda thinking PVE is starting to mean Player vs Everyone... PVP is Player vs a Specific Players team.

They could do away with storylines altogether, just put subs and nodes called "food" and we would still grind for rewards and placement....

Unknown

tanis3303 wrote:

I've mentioned this before, but I vote for keeping these crazy 395 nodes, but making them one and done, and actually worth the risk of fighting them. Set them at a difficulty proportional to each players roster, and community scaling is no longer an issue. Beat a lvl 395 Hood/Muscle/Don node? Cool. Here's 1,000 ISO or an event token or 25/50 HP, as well as a couple thousand event points, and now that node is locked for the rest of the sub.

Let overall event placement be decided by who has the essentials, and who can or is willing to play the event the most - not who can get the luckiest boards or who's willing to drop the most $$$ on health packs and rainbow boosts so they can clear these death nodes 5-6x at the subs end. We've all been clambering for a less grindy, time consuming PvE experience...as far as I can see, there's your answer right there.

I don't know if I'd enjoy a little "Gauntlet" in every event(mostly due to health pack expenditure), but in playing ISO-8/Jugg it seems they're headed that way

Born2DieNPvP

I wish they would just set up a 2 day event with ALL scaling turned off and see the results. Then 2 days with just community scaling off. Then 2 days as it is now. Not necessarily in that order. Make the rewards worthwhile for progression and placement to guarantee maximum participation and don't run any other events concurrent. That way grind fatigue doesn't set in and they don't have to wait a month for data collection. Run a poll like they are currently doing now so you get the non-forumites opinion too after it's over and see which the community prefers.

OnesOwnGrief

In case people think that they wont be seeing 395 nodes, you win enough in PvE without the Community Scaling, you will start seeing 395 matches effectively locking you from top placement if you can't complete them. Remember, this is an experiment and it's gonna burn some people more so than others.

Unknown

tanis3303 wrote:

I've mentioned this before, but I vote for keeping these crazy 395 nodes, but making them one and done, and actually worth the risk of fighting them. Set them at a difficulty proportional to each players roster, and community scaling is no longer an issue. Beat a lvl 395 Hood/Muscle/Don node? Cool. Here's 1,000 ISO or an event token or 25/50 HP, as well as a couple thousand event points, and now that node is locked for the rest of the sub.

Let overall event placement be decided by who has the essentials, and who can or is willing to play the event the most - not who can get the luckiest boards or who's willing to drop the most $$$ on health packs and rainbow boosts so they can clear these death nodes 5-6x at the subs end. We've all been clambering for a less grindy, time consuming PvE experience...as far as I can see, there's your answer right there.

One of the irony of scaling is that there are enough broken combos that even fairly ridiculous level 395 enemies are still beatable, at least beatable with some luck and there's always whales. I remember in the first Heroic Oscorp there's a 230 Daken + Ares + someone else, and even with pre nerf Spiderman on your side, virtually nobody beat that since your team was so bad, it'd take an hour to knock out Daken even if you had the entire team stunned forever. It certainly wasn't worth doing that node every refresh despite its very high base value point because you can beat 10 more nodes in the same time with far greater certainty. In Simulator Hard, I sure didn't hit every node on every refresh and still more than comfortably finished top 2 so obviously there is a point where a node gets hard enough that it is effectively one-and-done.

Unknown

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

In case people think that they wont be seeing 395 nodes, you win enough in PvE without the Community Scaling, you will start seeing 395 matches effectively locking you from top placement if you can't complete them. Remember, this is an experiment and it's gonna burn some people more so than others.

Back when there was no scaling, there was usually a node that's 230/230/230 that's worth a ton of points. Even with rubberbanding, realistically you're not going to get top placement if you can't complete that node. I see nothing wrong with having such a node, and back then I wasn't always able to complete it either.